Why CTE aiming?

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Before one gets schooled on physics, geometry and algebra, many have an intrinsic sense of them. Many good and great players never get schooled in them for they drop out of school early i.e. Efren etc.. So, the perception and quantification of angles from the CB to OB to pocket/target; english/spin and speed cannot be verbalized to them nor can they verbalize these metrics that they perceive and execute.

I being an engineer and egocentric have been caught in the paradigm that I had a difficulty in understanding why one can’t learn how to shoot pool using them. Spatial comprehension is a given and isn’t or can’t be taught, but is necessary to shoot well.

With these skills, one can grasp aiming using CP to CP, double distance, eclipse/overlap and even GB etc.. Without these skills, one can avail themselves to CTE aiming. With the discipline of CTE aiming, one can develop what is called the visuals and attain the correct stance to execute/effect the shot with or without the offset and pivot of CTE aiming.

I am and have been a believer in CTE aiming - for it works for some, though to me, it isn’t parsimonious.

Just saying.

Geometry and physics by CJ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmJFy9pMeYg
 
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have not had the "hallucination" that I ever aimed a shot.

Before one gets schooled on physics, geometry and algebra, many have an intrinsic sense of them. Many good and great players never get schooled in them for they drop out of school early i.e. Efren etc.. So, the perception and quantification of angles from the CB to OB to pocket/target; english/spin and speed cannot be verbalized to them nor can they verbalize these metrics that they perceive and execute.

I being an engineer and egocentric have been caught in the paradigm that I had a difficulty in understanding why one can’t learn how to shoot pool using them. Spatial comprehension is a given and isn’t or can’t be taught, but is necessary to shoot well.

With these skills, one can grasp aiming using CP to CP, double distance, eclipse/overlap and even GB etc.. Without these skills, one can avail themselves to CTE aiming. With the discipline of CTE aiming, one can develop what is called the visuals and attain the correct stance to execute/effect the shot with or without the offset and pivot of CTE aiming.

I am and have been a believer in CTE aiming - for it works for some, though to me, it isn’t parsimonious.

Just saying.

I've always aimed the center of the cue ball to the edge of the object ball without pivoting. The other shots I aim the center of the cue ball to the center of the object ball. I say this is "aiming," however, if I use one of two relative targets for every shot it can't simply be "aiming,' it must be "aligning".....so where does the "aiming" come in?

I'm not sure, it actually appears not to - I've played more pool than 99.9 % of the population and have not had the "hallucination" that I ever aimed a shot. The closest thing I can imagine is a "straight in" shot....and this one is just pure CTC.
 
Before one gets schooled on physics, geometry and algebra, many have an intrinsic sense of them. Many good and great players never get schooled in them for they drop out of school early i.e. Efren etc.. So, the perception and quantification of angles from the CB to OB to pocket/target; english/spin and speed cannot be verbalized to them nor can they verbalize these metrics that they perceive and execute.

I being an engineer and egocentric have been caught in the paradigm that I had a difficulty in understanding why one can’t learn how to shoot pool using them. Spatial comprehension is a given and isn’t or can’t be taught, but is necessary to shoot well.

With these skills, one can grasp aiming using CP to CP, double distance, eclipse/overlap and even GB etc.. Without these skills, one can avail themselves to CTE aiming. With the discipline of CTE aiming, one can develop what is called the visuals and attain the correct stance to execute/effect the shot with or without the offset and pivot of CTE aiming.

I am and have been a believer in CTE aiming - for it works for some, though to me, it isn’t parsimonious.

Just saying.

I really don't understand this post. Sounds like you are saying that people without math training can grasp geometric aiming and those without math training cannot and thus have to make do with CTE style aiming.

But to answer the question of why CTE aiming? Because it works.
 
I really don't understand this post. Sounds like you are saying that people without math training can grasp geometric aiming and those without math training cannot and thus have to make do with CTE style aiming.

But to answer the question of why CTE aiming? Because it works.

LAmas as well as others like Duckie, PJ and Dr. Dave like to play pool on paper! Pool isn't played on paper! It's a very visual game! More visual than any game out there! Math will not solve your visual perception, nor will it find the contact point! The contact point never changes, so you must, and I mean must line up visually to the shot! No math in the world will ever teach you this!
 
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I've always aimed the center of the cue ball to the edge of the object ball without pivoting. The other shots I aim the center of the cue ball to the center of the object ball. I say this is "aiming," however, if I use one of two relative targets for every shot it can't simply be "aiming,' it must be "aligning".....so where does the "aiming" come in?

I'm not sure, it actually appears not to - I've played more pool than 99.9 % of the population and have not had the "hallucination" that I ever aimed a shot. The closest thing I can imagine is a "straight in" shot....and this one is just pure CTC.

Thanks for the reply.
Awhile back, you were saying that you use fractions of the CB to help aim or "align". That would create more solutions for different cut angles. But that was before you proffered TOI.

Here is my take on that, but it's prolly wrong.

CJ Aiming 1.jpg

If one takes those same fractions on the CB and aimed at the edge of the OB, that would increase the number of cut angles beyond 38 to 90 degrees.

CJ Aiming 2 1.jpg
Thanks for sharing.:smile:
 
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How do you know those cut angles without knowing the distance?

If you're figuring straight fractions, that's not TOI...right? You cant figure angles w/o distance/speed.
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
 
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How do you know those cut angles without knowing the distance?

If you're figuring straight fractions, that's not TOI...right? You cant figure angles w/o distance/speed.
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Good question perhaps for CJ if he concurs with the diagram.

As for me, If the center of the CB is aimed at the center of the OB (CTC) that aim line yields a straight in shot.

If one aims the edge of the CB at the center of the OB and hits the center of the CB parallel to the ETC line, it will effect the center of the CB being aimed at the edge of the OB or CTE and yields a 30 degree cut angle shot.

It then follows that the fractions between the edge of the CB and it's center will yield those angles in between...as I diagrammed it.
 
Before one gets schooled on physics, geometry and algebra, many have an intrinsic sense of them. Many good and great players never get schooled in them for they drop out of school early i.e. Efren etc.. So, the perception and quantification of angles from the CB to OB to pocket/target; english/spin and speed cannot be verbalized to them nor can they verbalize these metrics that they perceive and execute.

I being an engineer and egocentric have been caught in the paradigm that I had a difficulty in understanding why one can’t learn how to shoot pool using them. Spatial comprehension is a given and isn’t or can’t be taught, but is necessary to shoot well.

With these skills, one can grasp aiming using CP to CP, double distance, eclipse/overlap and even GB etc.. Without these skills, one can avail themselves to CTE aiming. With the discipline of CTE aiming, one can develop what is called the visuals and attain the correct stance to execute/effect the shot with or without the offset and pivot of CTE aiming.

I am and have been a believer in CTE aiming - for it works for some, though to me, it isn’t parsimonious.

Just saying.

I dont what the he!! this means but it sounded interesting so i agree with you.:thumbup:
 
Thanks for the reply.
Awhile back, you were saying that you use fractions of the CB to help aim or "align". That would create more solutions for different cut angles. But that was before you proffered TOI.

Here is my take on that, but it's prolly wrong.

View attachment 267278

If one takes those same fractions on the CB and aimed at the edge of the OB, that would increase the number of cut angles beyond 38 to 90 degrees.

View attachment 267288
Thanks for sharing.:smile:

I think fractional aiming is alrite but you must know a little about angles to get it to work some what and thats just to pocket(cb center ball hits) balls .Lets add right and left, now your going to have to know a lot more about angles.;)
Just my opinion.
Anthony
 
I think fractional aiming is alrite but you must know a little about angles to get it to work some what and thats just to pocket(cb center ball hits) balls .Lets add right and left, now your going to have to know a lot more about angles.;)
Just my opinion.
Anthony

Hi, Tony and thanks for your interest.

You are correct.

I am behind the foot rail and referencing the far right corner pocket. Reverse for the left corner pocket.

If you can see the (included) angle created by the leg from the OB to the pocket/target and the other leg from the CB to the OB or GB (if you can imagine where it is), then you can associate that angle with a fractional aiming, either on the OB or the CB (as diagramed).

For reference, the 30 degree cut angle or CTE can be recognized as the angle created by a line from the far right corner pocket to the near left corner pocket.

The 15 degree cut angle would be a line frim the center spot on the head rail to the near left corner pocket or shoot the center of the CB to the point between the edge of the OB to the center of the CB (1/4 OB).

The 45 degree cut angle is a line from the far right corner pocket to the left side pocket or shoot the edge of the CB to the 1/4 OB.

the 90 degree cut angle is a line from the left long rail/s to the line from the left corner pocket to the right corner pocket or shoot the edge of the CB to the edge of the OB (ETE).

Adjust as required for the angles in between, on the OB, compensating for CIT with a bit of outside english, draw and high top (english).

Some shooters see these angles and fractions but don't ascribe angular degrees to them for they don't think in terms of geometric angles...just visuals. If you can commit these observations and results to memory, then you can recall them to solve the cut angle at hand.

Just sayin.:wink:
 
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i just watched JB's video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFNEDDFEtHg

Seems to me there are too many moving parts, no knock on JB(thanks for the video) I never paid attention to the CTE (wars here). Stan is a great player and others who use it, for me its too complex.


I'm a CTC guy i suppose, i think, maybe, hell i dont know......
 
i just watched JB's video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFNEDDFEtHg

Seems to me there are too many moving parts, no knock on JB(thanks for the video) I never paid attention to the CTE (wars here). Stan is a great player and others who use it, for me its too complex.


I'm a CTC guy i suppose, i think, maybe, hell i dont know......

In practice it's completely fluid. And ProOne doesn't even look like a "system" at all. Done right it just looks like the player sights the ball and goes down to the shooting position and shoots. It's so easy once you get it you wonder how you could have ever not gotten it.
 
In practice it's completely fluid. And ProOne doesn't even look like a "system" at all. Done right it just looks like the player sights the ball and goes down to the shooting position and shoots. It's so easy once you get it you wonder how you could have ever not gotten it.


i will give it a try, i havent hit a ball in a month-longest break i've taken in years. i'll be back to playing again full time soon(been busy moving)
 
In practice it's completely fluid. And ProOne doesn't even look like a "system" at all. Done right it just looks like the player sights the ball and goes down to the shooting position and shoots. It's so easy once you get it you wonder how you could have ever not gotten it.

One other thing it does is it breeds repetition by objectively doing the same thing on every shot (CTE & CB edge to aim point). Repetition is the mother of all skill...
 
One thing I did pick up from one of CJ's posts (on Facebook, I think) that was pretty prolific was there are no hard shots, there are no easy shots, they're just shots and each demands the same focus... CTE/Pro One makes it easy to look at shots objectively, simply as shots, not hard or easy, just shots.

The table I am playing on now has 4-1/8" pockets and I am more of a believer in Pro One now than ever....
 
One thing I did pick up from one of CJ's posts (on Facebook, I think) that was pretty prolific was there are no hard shots, there are no easy shots, they're just shots and each demands the same focus... CTE/Pro One makes it easy to look at shots objectively, simply as shots, not hard or easy, just shots.

The table I am playing on now has 4-1/8" pockets and I am more of a believer in Pro One now than ever....

Back when I was on Facebook, I learned more on CJ's wall than almost anywhere. Every so often, he would post something that was so profound, I would often ponder the implications for days on end.
 
The reason it doesn't take a rocket scientist to be a champion is

You line it up and you shoot it in. That is about all there is to it.
Nick :)
 
Good question perhaps for CJ if he concurs with the diagram.

As for me, If the center of the CB is aimed at the center of the OB (CTC) that aim line yields a straight in shot.

If one aims the edge of the CB at the center of the OB and hits the center of the CB parallel to the ETC line, it will effect the center of the CB being aimed at the edge of the OB or CTE and yields a 30 degree cut angle shot.

It then follows that the fractions between the edge of the CB and it's center will yield those angles in between...as I diagrammed it.
Good question perhaps for CJ if he concurs with the diagram.

As for me, If the center of the CB is aimed at the center of the OB (CTC) that aim line yields a straight in shot.

If one aims the edge of the CB at the center of the OB and hits the center of the CB parallel to the ETC line, it will effect the center of the CB being aimed at the edge of the OB or CTE and yields a 30 degree cut angle shot.

It then follows that the fractions between the edge of the CB and it's center will yield those angles in between...as I diagrammed it.

I think the main breakdown for those who don't get CTE is the inability to understand perspective and illusions. For example, with your comment:

"aiming the edge of the CB to the center of the OB and hits the center of the CB parallel to the ETC line yields a 30 degree shot"

That comment is really a 2 dimensional description that's quite true, but it doesn't apply to the reality of pool. It's hard to imagine aiming with fractions by using a parallax line to the direction of your vision.

Let me explain:
examplemr.jpg


People often think that sighting down the CTEL (top image) yields the same angle as the ETC line when it definitely doesn't. On a pool table diagram, they're equivalent. In the real world, the two are very different.

For example, the top image is similar to what one would see sighting "down" the CTEL. Obviously, the bottom is sighting "down" the ETC line. I made a small blue line to illustrate the CTEL, just for a reference. That would give you an idea to what line you're really paralleling down, based on your description. As you can see, you'd never get there as a player - you'd be shooting across your field of vision.

People tend to build the foundation of their math based on vertical lines in their field of vision (the light blue line to the left, showing the "ETC" decision) as if they're playing on a 2D diagram. For example, once you sight down the light blue line, if you were to flip your eyes down to the CB and strike center ball, you might miss the OB completely based on the distance. In fact, you will miss the OB at some point.

We're surrounded by a world of perspective illusions and it's those illusions, I believe, that make CTE work. For example, if you were to stand in the middle of a railroad track (centered between both rails) and look straight down the track, the rails will converge at one point. I tried to illustrate that to some point with the dark blue lines off the CB. Decision making is based on 2D references (i.e. something similar to the light blue line) but reality is a world of converging points based on distance. People have to fight (or use) the same illusion found on a railroad track on a pool table, it's just a lot more subtle.

I'm too lazy to make a second picture, but if I weren't, it would show that one's eyes must offset more in order to keep an ETE line "straight" in their field of vision. The OB gets smaller and the lines converge.

Looking at your diagram, the CTE/ETC and the ETE diagrams don't illustrate how a player identifies an alignment. They're correct, definitely, but not used in practice.

That said, the light blue line that's used to identify alignments isn't geometrically correct. However, it's "incorrectness" changes at a constant rate, likely figured on perspective calculations and the required eye placement to perceive such.

I just caught myself writing a book, shit. In summary, the answer to your concern with CTE is answered with two words: eye placement. Your eyes must move to maintain relationships based on distance. For shots of equal distance and different angles (but falling within the same visual), your eyes must move again to the "outermost" or "innermost" point to face the general direction of the pocket or fade the pocket, depending on the cut angle.

In summary, use the illusions -- they're required for CTE. It's all perspective-based. Eye placement is everything. Stan calls it "visual intelligence" - Gene calls it "Perfect Aim - move your eyes til you lose the shot and then come back a hair" - Hal used to say "see the outermost edge." All of these guys, in my humble opinion, stumbled upon the exact same thing with eye placement --- what seems incorrect, is correct. What seems right, isn't.

That's why people play their whole lives and can't make a ball. It's also why people who first report using CTE say, "There's NO way this goes" and then the ball goes center hole like magic.
 
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You line it up and you shoot it in. That is about all there is to it.
Nick :)

You're right for those who can. However, those who just line it up and shoot it in sometimes line it up and shoot it straight into the rail under pressure. Or, one day - they line it up and shoot it into a 4" pocket and then go to a friend's house with 5" pockets and do the exact same thing (to them) and miss completely.

I think regardless of one's speed, to play well consistently, you have to really understand vision and the environment you play in. Even someone who is a champion player and illiterate, they understand the above "in their own way" to achieve their result.
 
One thing I did pick up from one of CJ's posts (on Facebook, I think) that was pretty prolific was there are no hard shots, there are no easy shots, they're just shots and each demands the same focus... CTE/Pro One makes it easy to look at shots objectively, simply as shots, not hard or easy, just shots.

The table I am playing on now has 4-1/8" pockets and I am more of a believer in Pro One now than ever....

I completely agree. I had buckets and I just switched to the 4.33" pockets which is just a touch over 4.25". I had done fine with manual CTE on the buckets but struggled with grasping ProOne so I didn't really try to learn it.

The other day watching Stan's YT vids a light went on and I kind of snapped to it on ProOne. Went to the table and started firing them in the center of the pockets using the ProOne visuals. (at least I hope that they are the ProOne visuals).
 
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