Why CTE is silly
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Find the cloth resting point directly beneath the ghost-ball center. Aim at this point. The procedure is the exact same, with no adjustment in alignment, bridge length, or pivot, for absolutely any shot, including the three in my experiment. For people who have difficulty with this, here is some help:
NV 3.1 - Practicing contact point and ghost ball visualization
NV 3.2 - Using the cue to help visualize the impact and aiming lines
NV 3.2 - Using the cue to help visualize the impact and aiming lines
Much more help and information (e.g., how to adjust for throw), can be found here:
Regards,
Dave
after my pick up game of hockey tonite, i stopped off at the peelers. They had a barbox there, so i dropped a twonie in and set up these three shots, i made 2 and rattled the pocket on the middle shot! on my first attempt using eeezbanks method.
IMHO, this experiment/post is totally meaningless as I can make those three shots and I don't even claim to be a wart on a "real" poolplayers ass.
Anybody with any pool skills using any kind of "aiming system" should be able to walk into "the peelers" (whatever the hell that is
), drop a "twonie" (whatever the hell THAT is 
), set up those three shots and sink them, especially on a barbox!!!Maniac
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John,
Good job summarizing basic answers for many of the basic questions.
Concerning more detail on "how it works" and "why it works" and "how the same alignment and pivot can create different cut angles," I think this is covered fairly well in my CTE resource page, which I have recently revised some, based on a phone conversation with Spidey. Everything can be explained with "effective pivot length" (what Spidey calls the "shot arc"). If this is varied from one shot to another, a wide range of cut angles can be created with the same initial alignment and bridge length. Also, if the eye alignment is changed from one shot to another, the perceived cue alignment and parallel shift will be different. The difficulty for people who can't use CTE effectively is in judging or feeling the amount of eye shift and "effective pivot length" needed on each shot. These things seem to come naturally to people who use CTE effectively; but, IMO, these are the "missing pieces" of the puzzle that are difficult (or impossible) to describe with a written "procedure."
I think all of this can be made perfectly clear with a short online video that includes different views and close-ups (especially from above) that show exactly how an experienced CTE user aligns, pivots, and strokes. The video must clearly show the steps (alignment, pivot, stroke) and how they change with varying cut angle and ball distance. The changes might seem natural and even subconscious to the user; but with clear camera views, the differences from one shot to the next will be obvious, and this will conclusively prove how and why CTE works.
Regards,
Dave
What I described isn't the whole aiming system, but it's an integral part of it - the necessary setup for the next systematic steps (i.e., use shift-and-pivot to apply "feel"). And, incidentally, it's unique to the aiming system (unless you know of another half-ball pre-shot routine).
But more importantly, obsessing over what name it deserves simply diverts attention from your own valid points regarding the substance of it. It changes focus from the light of the discussion to the heat of it.
pj
chgo
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IMHO, this experiment/post is totally meaningless as I can make those three shots and I don't even claim to be a wart on a "real" poolplayers ass.
Anybody with any pool skills using any kind of "aiming system" should be able to walk into "the peelers" (whatever the hell that is
Maniac
I didnt make these 3 shots up, i was told this cant be done using cte? maybe i misunderstood
All three shots were made with the identical aim points and mechanics ... ijs
I didnt make these 3 shots up, i was told this cant be done using cte? maybe i misunderstood
All three shots were made with the identical aim points and mechanics ... ijs
The purpose of the 3 shots is to set up a situation where the distance of the balls from each other, are the same on each shot.
It's not about if the balls can be made.
Anyone can make the shots.
It's about if using CTE mechanics will give you the same point of contact on each shot given the balls equal distances from each other and therefore yield identical results (which would yield parallel trajectories) OR if it would yield different contact points which would make all 3 go to the hole, and if so, why.
Maybe i did make a slight adjustment without realizing it on the two inside shots? Cte put me where i wanted to be though and if i did adjust, it was so minor i didnt even realize it.
Dr dave says he knows why balls are made using cte, why doesnt he dumb it right down and explain it so the average pool hall drop out can understand? when i look at his charts and math my heart starts pounding and i loose my breathe! i have to close the page off!
I didnt make these 3 shots up, i was told this cant be done using cte? maybe i misunderstood
Well...........you missed one
!!! I set up the three shots on my home table and made all three by just "knowing" where to hit the object ball, without any thinking or pivoting. What does that prove? Absolutely NOTHING. It's just three shots that can be made by a wide variety of aiming methods, including yours.Listen, I am neither a detractor nor a proponent of CTE. Obviously many people love it, while others are not so endeared to it. Shooting a rack or two of balls is in no way an indication of whether a particular system works for any individual. In the LONG RUN, any "system" will tell on itself.
Right now, I'd be more willing to listen to what the top money winners and tournament champions have to say about aiming than I would an instructor charging good money for lessons. Problem is, they don't talk much about it. At least if they do, it's not general information that I have any access to.
But once again, that's just me and my opinion. Means NOTHING to anyone else.
I do wish we all could keep the discussion civil. There's just too much animosity towards one another on this thread. There's lots of good debating on both sides to keep this thread both educational AND entertaining. I just don't want to see the thread pulled by the mods because of rude things people say to one another.
Maniac
I've tried to write a response. But I have to say that I really can't come up with anything that seems useful. In the end, it seems to me that you're the one who's obsessing (and that only you are interested in this angle).
The MAIN argument going on is whether CTE IS an aiming system or not (framed in terms of "it works" vs "it doesn't" --and of course, if it doesn't, then it's not an "aiming system," or, if you must, it's an "aiming system that doesn't work to carry out the functions of an aiming system").
If SOMETHING useful is ultimately found about CTE, the idea seems to be related to setting up. In the end then, it seems like "set up system" would ultimately describe it better than "aiming system."
Telling you you're obsessing is me obsessing. Telling you this angle is unproductive is me being interested in this angle.
I guess others were right: you just want to argue.
pj
chgo
I've started with the Pivot from Ron Vitello (Still use this in certain position (high probability and works) and found that the point on the cloth its a much better reference point for me.
Shown this locally to a lot of friends in my pool room and I think they are playing much better now with more confident in where they are shooting. Again it's a reference points that help eliminate the guess work for the brain. It's just like playing for a position...if you don't know exactly where the cue ball going to land....it's much better if you use a reference point (eg. a spot, area etc on the table) or for speed control...again better player always use a reference point..such as a diamond on the rail etc. Point to all this is that the less the brain has to guess...the more focus you have in all the other area of the games.
In my view...it will definitely help you games and give you more confident in making the shot. I'm a fast player and I usually just go down and shoot and my friend always asked how I can shoot so fast without aiming. Well, if you should thousand of ball...you brain should already know where to aim...especially when you have a reference point in mind for the shoot. Just let your brain do the work...Still need practice but I can assure you confident level will Jump!! Especially for lower handicap player...who haven't been expose to these techniques..
It's amazing after you show someone these techniques..a light goes on and they seem to be more aware. So CTE..or what ever you want to call it...it's here to stay and it's will definitely help players that needs it. If you're an A player...you probably shoot enough ball in your head that you already have a reference points probably without knowing it. Next time you get down to shoot...just aim however you want and pay attention to where your tip is pointing at. I'm still learning and will explore different idea whenever I get a chance as it will add another tool to my game. Goal is check everything out...and keep what works for you.
Good Luck to all...I believe CTE is great topic and will definitely help out players to play a much better game of pool. We all love this games...and should help other get into this game....will benefit us all in the end.
Now..who has a good system for playing safety and getting out of Safety...that the weakest part of my game and probably the most important in playing 9/10 ball.
Regards,
Duc.
Shown this locally to a lot of friends in my pool room and I think they are playing much better now with more confident in where they are shooting. Again it's a reference points that help eliminate the guess work for the brain. It's just like playing for a position...if you don't know exactly where the cue ball going to land....it's much better if you use a reference point (eg. a spot, area etc on the table) or for speed control...again better player always use a reference point..such as a diamond on the rail etc. Point to all this is that the less the brain has to guess...the more focus you have in all the other area of the games.
In my view...it will definitely help you games and give you more confident in making the shot. I'm a fast player and I usually just go down and shoot and my friend always asked how I can shoot so fast without aiming. Well, if you should thousand of ball...you brain should already know where to aim...especially when you have a reference point in mind for the shoot. Just let your brain do the work...Still need practice but I can assure you confident level will Jump!! Especially for lower handicap player...who haven't been expose to these techniques..
It's amazing after you show someone these techniques..a light goes on and they seem to be more aware. So CTE..or what ever you want to call it...it's here to stay and it's will definitely help players that needs it. If you're an A player...you probably shoot enough ball in your head that you already have a reference points probably without knowing it. Next time you get down to shoot...just aim however you want and pay attention to where your tip is pointing at. I'm still learning and will explore different idea whenever I get a chance as it will add another tool to my game. Goal is check everything out...and keep what works for you.
Good Luck to all...I believe CTE is great topic and will definitely help out players to play a much better game of pool. We all love this games...and should help other get into this game....will benefit us all in the end.
Now..who has a good system for playing safety and getting out of Safety...that the weakest part of my game and probably the most important in playing 9/10 ball.
Regards,
Duc.
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Sorry. That's my perception. Yes, I perceive you as obsessing. I certainly DON'T want to argue about that! It's totally uninteresting to me. I only tried to respond to your post.
Hey, that's my aiming system!
You owe me money!!
pj <- aka George C. Scott
chgo
Well...........you missed one
Listen, I am neither a detractor nor a proponent of CTE. Obviously many people love it, while others are not so endeared to it. Shooting a rack or two of balls is in no way an indication of whether a particular system works for any individual. In the LONG RUN, any "system" will tell on itself.
Right now, I'd be more willing to listen to what the top money winners and tournament champions have to say about aiming than I would an instructor charging good money for lessons. Problem is, they don't talk much about it. At least if they do, it's not general information that I have any access to.
But once again, that's just me and my opinion. Means NOTHING to anyone else.
I do wish we all could keep the discussion civil. There's just too much animosity towards one another on this thread. There's lots of good debating on both sides to keep this thread both educational AND entertaining. I just don't want to see the thread pulled by the mods because of rude things people say to one another.
Maniac
Well …. I don’t think anyone who uses cte system will say they have never missed a shot when using some form of cte. I don’t think anyone using a cte system will say those three shots can only be made using a cte system. I don’t think that’s the debate here? But my potting of balls percentage went way up when I started using a cte system is all I will say. I don’t own a table and have played maybe 5 games of pool in 8 months, I really kind of gave all three shots a half ass effort and just was curious if they would be near the pocket! I was in a strip joint (peelers) using a bar cue also. A townie is a 2 dollar Canadian coin :smile:
It would be great if someone can create a similar diagram with one of this shot. Add the ghost ball... and setup a line of cue balls position to show how the line of aim pass through the ghost ball. It will be clear from this diagram that a large % of line of aim goes to one area and some % of the line deviate from it. Basically ghost ball is a perfect reference if your brain can visualize it. If you draw the line from both side of the cue ball to the ghost ball...this is the path that will 100% make the object ball. If this assumption is correct than you can proceed to draw a center line from the cueball to the Ghost ball.
This will establish your aim line.....now the key here is what do you do with the line of aim? How can you brain visualize this on the object ball? Well we have CTE, shadow, etc..a system to reference these lines of aim and generalize them so you brain don't have to work so hard. In essence, the pivot is a great solution in calculating this line of aim without your brain having to do much other then aligning yourself properly. The spot on the cloth, using the shadow, etc are other great solutions for referencing these line of aim (Generalizing them because we know 80% of these shots can be made using this one aim point). Through practice you'll find that using anyone of these will work but some will work better for you in certain shots. (eg. I using the shadow technique for cutting the object ball to the side pocket...it works like magic..don't even have to think about it much).
Through experience and shooting thousand of shots...these reference points will be fine tuned and you'll know if the tip should be center, right or left of the point depending on the angle.
Hope this will helps anyone that's still confused to take on these great tools to improve your game!! They works...100% guarantee your confident will improved...or at least have some tool in your bag when you're validation your shot for the money ball!!!! GL
Regards,
Duc.
This will establish your aim line.....now the key here is what do you do with the line of aim? How can you brain visualize this on the object ball? Well we have CTE, shadow, etc..a system to reference these lines of aim and generalize them so you brain don't have to work so hard. In essence, the pivot is a great solution in calculating this line of aim without your brain having to do much other then aligning yourself properly. The spot on the cloth, using the shadow, etc are other great solutions for referencing these line of aim (Generalizing them because we know 80% of these shots can be made using this one aim point). Through practice you'll find that using anyone of these will work but some will work better for you in certain shots. (eg. I using the shadow technique for cutting the object ball to the side pocket...it works like magic..don't even have to think about it much).
Through experience and shooting thousand of shots...these reference points will be fine tuned and you'll know if the tip should be center, right or left of the point depending on the angle.
Hope this will helps anyone that's still confused to take on these great tools to improve your game!! They works...100% guarantee your confident will improved...or at least have some tool in your bag when you're validation your shot for the money ball!!!! GL
Regards,
Duc.
IMHO, this experiment/post is totally meaningless as I can make those three shots and I don't even claim to be a wart on a "real" poolplayers ass.
Anybody with any pool skills using any kind of "aiming system" should be able to walk into "the peelers" (whatever the hell that is
Maniac
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In your first post you spelled it "twonie". Where I come from that's a bill with Andrew Jackson's face on it. :grin:
Best,
Mike
Around here, it's Thomas Jefferson.
I don't have any charts or math in the main section of my CTE resource page. Maybe you're referring to Jal's stuff?
Here's my explanation for why/how CTE works:
Everything can be explained with "effective pivot length" (what Spidey calls the "shot arc"). If this is varied from one shot to another, a wide range of cut angles can be created with the same initial alignment and bridge length. Also, if the eye alignment is changed from one shot to another, the perceived cue alignment and parallel shift will be different. The difficulty for people who can't use CTE effectively is in judging or feeling the amount of eye shift and "effective pivot length" needed on each shot. These things seem to come naturally to people who use CTE effectively; but, IMO, these are the "missing pieces" of the puzzle that are difficult (or impossible) to describe with a written "procedure."
I think all of this can be made perfectly clear with a short online video that includes different views and close-ups (especially from above) that show exactly how an experienced CTE user aligns, pivots, and strokes. The video must clearly show the steps (alignment, pivot, stroke) and how they change with varying cut angle and ball distance. The changes might seem natural and even subconscious to the user; but with clear camera views, the differences from one shot to the next will be obvious, and this will conclusively prove how and why CTE works.
I think all of this can be made perfectly clear with a short online video that includes different views and close-ups (especially from above) that show exactly how an experienced CTE user aligns, pivots, and strokes. The video must clearly show the steps (alignment, pivot, stroke) and how they change with varying cut angle and ball distance. The changes might seem natural and even subconscious to the user; but with clear camera views, the differences from one shot to the next will be obvious, and this will conclusively prove how and why CTE works.
Maybe this isn't very "dumbed down," but I do have some illustrations on the CTE resource page that help understand what some of it means. For example, here's an illustration that shows how changing the "effective pivot length" (with a fixed initial alignment) affects the cut angle of the shot:
And here's an illustration of how you can change "effective pivot length" with a fixed bridge distance:
If you have specific questions about anything else on the CTE resource page, please let me know. I'd be happy to do my best to try to explain or illustrate it better.
Regards,
Dave
Haha...
Maybe it's the other way around Just because you goes down and do your aiming doesn't mean your guess or feel on the aim is going to work. If you're missing shot because your guessing is not working..well check out any of these great tools (CTE, shadow) and you'll find that next time you look at the aim point..you'll realize that hey..why is it that it's always point there? LOL. When the light finally goes on....you brain will say...hell why do I need to do the guess works...just aim and shoot there. So now you'll brain can start to focus on other finer point of the game such as speed and shape which also have system and references points. LOL.
You'll probably do you thing again and say ok...I want it to be roughly here but probably don't know exactly how and hope that experience will eventually tell you after you shoot millions of shots. Or you can be smart and learn from others who already shots millions of shots and know exactly how to get there by simply using the clock systems, etc. etc. etc.
Point is, these system will help cut your learning curve......so however you want to learn this game is completely up to you. I like to have the short cut myself...lots of other thing to do in life...why waste all the time when you have a short cut that will get you there faster?
It's your decision...great players have been developed through both path...you can decide which journey you want to embark on...Shoot on!!
Btw, you I shoot with a hand made layered Molavia Tip and sell custom cues...if you need any please PM me.
Regards,
Duc.
Maybe it's the other way around
Just because you goes down and do your aiming doesn't mean your guess or feel on the aim is going to work. If you're missing shot because your guessing is not working..well check out any of these great tools (CTE, shadow) and you'll find that next time you look at the aim point..you'll realize that hey..why is it that it's always point there? LOL. When the light finally goes on....you brain will say...hell why do I need to do the guess works...just aim and shoot there. So now you'll brain can start to focus on other finer point of the game such as speed and shape which also have system and references points. LOL. You'll probably do you thing again and say ok...I want it to be roughly here but probably don't know exactly how and hope that experience will eventually tell you after you shoot millions of shots. Or you can be smart and learn from others who already shots millions of shots and know exactly how to get there by simply using the clock systems, etc. etc. etc.
Point is, these system will help cut your learning curve......so however you want to learn this game is completely up to you. I like to have the short cut myself...lots of other thing to do in life...why waste all the time when you have a short cut that will get you there faster?
It's your decision...great players have been developed through both path...you can decide which journey you want to embark on...Shoot on!!
Btw, you I shoot with a hand made layered Molavia Tip and sell custom cues...if you need any please PM me.
Regards,
Duc.
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