Why CTE is silly

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Neil said:
The silence is deafening.
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If this is what you consider high drama you obviously don't have a teenage daughter. I just got back from the pool hall.

Nice shooting Dave!
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Dave, no matter what else this shows, it shows again that you shoot straight, especially the shots you showed us.

But as you predicted, I don't agree it demonstrates that the only thing you need to know is whether the cut is thick, thin or thinner. However, I think we can pretty easily test that to everybody's satisfaction if you're willing to help.

The first thing we need is to know what the range of cut angles is for thick, thin and thinner. I assume those three categories cover all cuts from not-quite-straight-in to whatever is too thin for you to shoot (75 degrees? more?). Once we know that then I'm sure I can describe a test that you can do on your own table that I'll accept.

OK?

pj
chgo
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Not sure what you mean - def not a gaff. Try shooting at a blind pocket one time. You prob don't know how tough it is until you try. What this little practice game displays is, "Can you make a ball with no aiming adjustment based on your alignment alone." Do you have to look at the OB in general while playing pool? Of course you do. Whenever you need to spin, position, etc,.. you need information from the OB.

If someone is a pure ghost ball player, I'm not sure it's physically possible to score well (esp if the ob is blocked in seconds where no minute adjustments can be made once you're set). Maybe I'm wrong. GB requires three points on a line: pocket, OB, center GB. If you're missing the pocket information and have limited time to get OB information -- I don't think it can be done, frankly.
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I did not know I could get "set" before the pocket is blocked....I could make shots all day that way.....I routinly do a drill of shooting shots with my eyes closed...The drill is actually to work on my stroke mechanics and also to see what I am focused on when I pull the trigger...I have acutally run racks of 9-ball this way...using draw, follow etc.

Of course there is not way I would make balls if I could not see the OB while I am lining up.......You won't be able to either until you get your parallell shift aim.

There is another "trick" to these blind pockets....(and it could be applied in your after 3-second view rules)...I am sure you have had those long back cut down the rail shots where when you get down on the shot to set up to the shot you can't see the pocket.

I come from a golf back ground and when faced with a 20 or 30 or 60 or even 100 foot put....the "trick" to these long putts is what is called an "intermediate" target....You don't line up to the hole....you imagine your putt line (usually never striaght) from the hole back to the ball...you find an intermediate target about 3-6 feet in front of your ball....You no longer are worried about the hole (other than speed)...your whole focus is to line up with your intermediate target...and roll the ball over that target.....bowlers that "spot" bowl are doing the same thing.

I use an intermediate target on those lone down the rail back cuts where you can't see the pocket....shoot the ball over that spot...and it usually goes in.......The older the cloth gets...the easier that method is to use since there will be more "marks" on the cloth.

Technically...you could use your 3 seconds to find that spot...:wink:
 
BRKNRUN said:
I did not know I could get "set" before the pocket is blocked....I could make shots all day that way.....I routinly do a drill of shooting shots with my eyes closed...The drill is actually to work on my stroke mechanics and also to see what I am focused on when I pull the trigger...I have acutally run racks of 9-ball this way...using draw, follow etc.

Of course there is not way I would make balls if I could not see the OB while I am lining up.......You won't be able to either until you get your parallell shift aim.

There is another "trick" to these blind pockets....(and it could be applied in your after 3-second view rules)...I am sure you have had those long back cut down the rail shots where when you get down on the shot to set up to the shot you can't see the pocket.

I come from a golf back ground and when faced with a 20 or 30 or 60 or even 100 foot put....the "trick" to these long putts is what is called an "intermediate" target....You don't line up to the hole....you imagine your putt line (usually never striaght) from the hole back to the ball...you find an intermediate target about 3-6 feet in front of your ball....You no longer are worried about the hole (other than speed)...your whole focus is to line up with your intermediate target...and roll the ball over that target.....bowlers that "spot" bowl are doing the same thing.

I use an intermediate target on those lone down the rail back cuts where you can't see the pocket....shoot the ball over that spot...and it usually goes in.......The older the cloth gets...the easier that method is to use since there will be more "marks" on the cloth.

Technically...you could use your 3 seconds to find that spot...:wink:
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You misunderstood. Pocket is always blocked... and OB after 3 secs.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
If this is what you consider high drama you obviously don't have a teenage daughter. I just got back from the pool hall.


Dave, no matter what else this shows, it shows again that you shoot straight, especially the shots you showed us.

But as you predicted, I don't agree it demonstrates that the only thing you need to know is whether the cut is thick, thin or thinner. However, I think we can pretty easily test that to everybody's satisfaction if you're willing to help.

The first thing we need is to know what the range of cut angles is for thick, thin and thinner. I assume those three categories cover all cuts from not-quite-straight-in to whatever is too thin for you to shoot (75 degrees? more?). Once we know that then I'm sure I can describe a test that you can do on your own table that I'll accept.

OK?

pj
chgo
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To be completely honest, I'm not really sure of the exact range in degrees. I also think whatever that range is depends on the cleanliness of the balls and humidity. I see shots as thick, thin, and really thin. That's it. Degrees are invisible, contact points are invisible, etc., so why worry about them. It's just how Hal taught me, and that's how I see a pool table.

I can tell what a shot is in a fraction of a second. Not because of an angle, but because of a relationship. I don't think a shot is thick because, "Oh, that's 25 degrees." There's an eye alignment that's obviously right or obviously wrong - it's A or B. If I think a shot is thick (when it's not) and slide into the CB, I know immediately and get back up.

Like I said, PJ, the best test is to shoot without post-set subtle aiming adjustments (blind OB). I think that's the best way. I don't think experience, feel-aiming or ghost ball can cheat a players way through that.

You asked for a video, I gave you one. I didn't shoot straight, as you said. I missed more than I thought. It's hard. Try it! If you want another video and a specific test, you have to agree to video tape yourself doing the same test. Otherwise, there's no control group.
 
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BRKNRUN said:
Not knocking you for using CTE....but one of the biggest drawbacks to that system is the extra curricular activity involved with the set up...

I lose my straightness of stroke....I notice that you have a move at the end that would drive me nuts...(perhaps it does not bother you)

After you do you pivot and take your final stroke....at the end of your stroke the cue dives back to your left.....For you it may be happening "after" contact but it almost seems like it could cause stroke consitency problems.

It is more noticable when you get more square to the camera...(Check 3:39)

That is a hurdle in the system that I have a real problem with.....

If I were to ever use the system....I would have to do what has been termed an "air pivot"....but if that is the case....why do I need to pivot in the first place....an air pivot I guess would just identify the shot angle...or in my case the aim line I am going to set up on....If that is the case...I really don't need the system to identify the "aim line"

I will also take your word that you did not cheat by looking at where the rails (ontop of your view blocker) intersect which would give you the corner pocket.....or dare I say (ghost pocket)....:smile:
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Like any aiming system your pre-shot routine is key to lining up correctly. If your not warmed up your mind will try to compensate and steer the cue. I have no doubt Dave could score above 80% consistently once he is in stroke. That's strong! Thanks for putting it on video, Spidey.

From what you've posted I know you will appreciate Stan's dvd content. I use Pro One and other pivot systems depending on the shot and my mood that day. Pro One is the most natural way to get down on each shot and is easy to get comfortable with after a little practice. It feels like a neat little trick you've learned and you start noticing how you almost float down into the shotmaking position. Many advanced players will find the technique simlar to what they do already physically. They're just not aiming right, yet.

Then there's the bad side to this video. I can see it now...some a$$hole is gonna buy it and beat me because they can do it better than me! :frown: It will be Stan's fault, guys for creating these new monsters! :rolleyes:

Best,
Mike
 
SpiderWebComm said:
To be completely honest, I'm not really sure of the exact range in degrees.
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No problem. We don't need degrees.

I can tell what a shot is in a fraction of a second. Not because of an angle, but because of a relationship. I don't think a shot is thick because, "Oh, that's 25 degrees." There's an eye alignment that's obviously right or obviously wrong - it's A or B. If I think a shot is thick (when it's not) and slide into the CB, I know immediately and get back up.
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Great. This is all we need.

Just put the cue ball on the head spot and the object ball a diamond downtable from it, then put balls on the foot and side rails where the thick, thin and thinner ranges begin and end. This should take you no time at all since you're so practiced at visualizing it. The Wei table below shows how it might look.

I just guessed and put divisions at 3/4- ball, 1/2-ball and 1/4-ball cuts, which only includes cuts up to a little over 45 degrees - your divisions might be different (maybe covering even thinner cuts?).

cte table.jpg

If you do just this much I can make my point clear without any more tests. Even if you can just tell us if the 3/4-ball, 1/2-ball and 1/4-ball cuts are roughly the right dividing lines, I can work with that.

pj
chgo
 
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Nice shooting Dave.

I'm a 100% feel player, with no idea of contact points, fractions, lines, ghostballs, etc. I'd like to repeat your test sometime soon. I'd like to do it first shooting normally, to get a baseline, and then with a cover over the table like you had. I expect to shoot lower than you, because I'm a lower level player than you. However, I don't think the cover will make much of a difference on my personal shooting, if I make it exactly like you had it. The reason is, I believe your eyes picked up what is left of the long rail before the cover starts, and also the intersection of the side and end rail where the pocket would be.

I'm not knocking the CTE method at all. I just think the way you had the table covered allowed your brain to "see" where the pocket was.

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You need a few 4x8 sheets of plywood, that someone else will put over the table (so you can't see the setup). The sheet should not be centered on the table, so you can't use the sheet's edges as a "guide" for your eye.

You need to cover the rails near the cueball as well, so you don't see anything. Then, have a helper set up a 2 shots. What YOU define as thick, and what YOU define as thin, like PJ asked you above. He will tell you if the shot is thick or thin. All you can see is the cueball and object ball, and the rest of the table is covered. Then, you shoot the two shots 10 times each, and record the results.

I hypothesisze you won't make any shots if:
1. You can only see the cueball and object ball
2. You can't see any of the table features
3. The shots are set up thick and thin based on YOUR definition.
 
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iusedtoberich said:
Nice shooting Dave.

I'm a 100% feel player, with no idea of contact points, fractions, lines, ghostballs, etc. I'd like to repeat your test sometime soon. I'd like to do it first shooting normally, to get a baseline, and then with a cover over the table like you had. I expect to shoot lower than you, because I'm a lower level player than you. However, I don't think the cover will make much of a difference on my personal shooting, if I make it exactly like you had it. The reason is, I believe your eyes picked up what is left of the long rail before the cover starts, and also the intersection of the side and end rail where the pocket would be.

I'm not knocking the CTE method at all. I just think the way you had the table covered allowed your brain to "see" where the pocket was.

Edit: Added all below:
You need a few 4x8 sheets of plywood, that someone else will put over the table (so you can't see the setup). The sheet should not be centered on the table, so you can't use the sheet's edges as a "guide" for your eye.

You need to cover the rails near the cueball as well, so you don't see anything. Then, have a helper set up a 2 shots. What YOU define as thick, and what YOU define as thin, like PJ asked you above. He will tell you if the shot is thick or thin. All you can see is the cueball and object ball, and the rest of the table is covered. Then, you shoot the two shots 10 times each, and record the results.

I hypothesisze you won't make any shots if:
1. You can only see the cueball and object ball
2. You can't see any of the table features
3. The shots are set up thick and thin based on YOUR definition.
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Are you sadistic? How about shooting speed pool with someone in another room on a regular table?:)
 
iusedtoberich said:
Nice shooting Dave.

I'm a 100% feel player, with no idea of contact points, fractions, lines, ghostballs, etc. I'd like to repeat your test sometime soon. I'd like to do it first shooting normally, to get a baseline, and then with a cover over the table like you had. I expect to shoot lower than you, because I'm a lower level player than you. However, I don't think the cover will make much of a difference on my personal shooting, if I make it exactly like you had it. The reason is, I believe your eyes picked up what is left of the long rail before the cover starts, and also the intersection of the side and end rail where the pocket would be.

I'm not knocking the CTE method at all. I just think the way you had the table covered allowed your brain to "see" where the pocket was.

Edit: Added all below:
You need a few 4x8 sheets of plywood, that someone else will put over the table (so you can't see the setup). The sheet should not be centered on the table, so you can't use the sheet's edges as a "guide" for your eye.

You need to cover the rails near the cueball as well, so you don't see anything. Then, have a helper set up a 2 shots. What YOU define as thick, and what YOU define as thin, like PJ asked you above. He will tell you if the shot is thick or thin. All you can see is the cueball and object ball, and the rest of the table is covered. Then, you shoot the two shots 10 times each, and record the results.

I hypothesisze you won't make any shots if:
1. You can only see the cueball and object ball
2. You can't see any of the table features
3. The shots are set up thick and thin based on YOUR definition.
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Just hang a sheet over the table (on a rope) so it forms a vertical wall that hides half the table including the side pockets. Leave a three inch gap at the bottom for shots to go under.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Just hang a sheet over the table (on a rope) so it forms a vertical wall that hides half the table including the side pockets. Leave a three inch gap at the bottom for shots to go under.

pj
chgo
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Dave goes way back and gets down pretty low; better make it 2 3/8".:)

You could also hang the sheet lengthwise down the middle of the table and shoot into all three pockets on the other side of the sheet.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Nice shooting Dave.

I'm a 100% feel player, with no idea of contact points, fractions, lines, ghostballs, etc. I'd like to repeat your test sometime soon. I'd like to do it first shooting normally, to get a baseline, and then with a cover over the table like you had. I expect to shoot lower than you, because I'm a lower level player than you. However, I don't think the cover will make much of a difference on my personal shooting, if I make it exactly like you had it. The reason is, I believe your eyes picked up what is left of the long rail before the cover starts, and also the intersection of the side and end rail where the pocket would be.

I'm not knocking the CTE method at all. I just think the way you had the table covered allowed your brain to "see" where the pocket was.

Edit: Added all below:
You need a few 4x8 sheets of plywood, that someone else will put over the table (so you can't see the setup). The sheet should not be centered on the table, so you can't use the sheet's edges as a "guide" for your eye.

You need to cover the rails near the cueball as well, so you don't see anything. Then, have a helper set up a 2 shots. What YOU define as thick, and what YOU define as thin, like PJ asked you above. He will tell you if the shot is thick or thin. All you can see is the cueball and object ball, and the rest of the table is covered. Then, you shoot the two shots 10 times each, and record the results.

I hypothesisze you won't make any shots if:
1. You can only see the cueball and object ball
2. You can't see any of the table features
3. The shots are set up thick and thin based on YOUR definition.
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You are going to lose that bet. The balls will still go in the hole.
 
cookie man said:
You are going to lose that bet. The balls will still go in the hole.
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You're right Cookie. The balls will still go in the hole. Then they'll say the blanket was marked or the wood had lines on it. Next time use two glow in the dark balls and shut the lights off. lol. It's amazing. This isn't magic folks. :rolleyes:
 
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