Why do people refer to it as THE Diamond System?

[Bob Jewett]

ironically, Shamos has claimed that the system mentioned in "billiards as it should be played" was neither known or used by Hoppe.

That's certainly what one would conclude from "McGoorty" which I tend to believe. Hoppe learned to play at the world championship level long before the corner-5 was well developed; I think he won most of his championships before the "allowances" due to "The Seattle Kid" were worked out.

 

[oscar]

Kilgore opposite 3 in the book of byrnes

try Kilgore opposite 3 in the book of byrnes it rocks you just have to to adjust to every table

 

[Underclocked]

Darren Everett has developed a new banking system that he says is nearly foolproof - but he's reluctant to share it with me. Probably thinks I'm the exceptional fool. :grin:

And, just like Jay, I've never used a diamond system during play. Visualization works pretty well for me. What does Efren use?

 

[walrus_3d]

Darren Everett has developed a new banking system that he says is nearly foolproof - but he's reluctant to share it with me. Probably thinks I'm the exceptional fool. :grin:

And, just like Jay, I've never used a diamond system during play. Visualization works pretty well for me. What does Efren use?

Efren uses Magic.

 

[bbb]

first of all i agree with those that say most people are referring to the corner 5 systemm when referring to THE diamond system.
however i disagree strongly with those that play by "feel" that knowing diamond systems isnt helpful or necessary
playing by feel is like going into a closet with the lights turned off and grabbing your cloths by feel
this feels like a shirt etc
you will be successfull at getting a shirt pants shoes etc but they may not be coordinated
using the diamonds is like turning the lights on or having a map on how to get somewhere.

im not saying im a better player than anyone that plays by feel
thats definitely not true

but in the last 6 months that i have spent learning various diamond systems for kicking and banking my ability to hit balls and make banks has gone up tremendously
especially those i had no feel for

 

[scottjen26]

I too have a binder with dozens of diamond systems in it, all of which I learned and memorized and found useful when playing pool or three cushion. There are probably dozens more that I've seen or played with that I didn't bother to retain because they were close duplicates of others I already knew, or I personally didn't find accurate on my equipment, or found the calculations too difficult to bother with.

Certainly people can kick by feel, and if that works for you great. But I know I'm VERY accurate with my kicks, especially 2+ rails since 1 rail kicks can be more sensitive to table conditions and slight changes in english or speed. Having the systems proves to be a great reference point if nothing else, and even knowing only a few and using them in conjunction with spot on the wall techniques will get you very close to the hit needed from any position on the table.


Efren demonstrated a kicking system at the Predator pool school that was essentially System Sid. (If you don't know that one, you can find my write up of it on poolstudent.com). Whether he learned that for pool, or from 3-cushion, I never got the chance to ask. But I'm sure he and his fellow countrymen don't just kick completely by feel, there has been some memorization of either common paths or systems along the way...

Scott

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Efren demonstrated a kicking system at the Predator pool school that was essentially System Sid. (If you don't know that one, you can find my write up of it on poolstudent.com). ...

Did he have a different set of numbers for the second cushion? The reason I ask is that the numbers published in Harris's Billiard Atlas have been simplified for easier memorization and are up to 1/3 diamond different from the theoretically correct values.

 

[lfigueroa]

ironically, Shamos has claimed that the system mentioned in "billiards as it should be played" was neither known or used by Hoppe.

This subject came up recently in another thread and I quoted the pertinent passage, so, here it is, from "McGoorty."

#####
“In Hoppe’s book on how to play billiards is a long section on the diamond system, charts showing how to count the spots on the rails and figure out where to aim by using arithmetic. Now that is a joke, because he was not a system player. I went out to Navy Pier one morning during the 1950 tournament to practice and there was Hoppe all alone in the hall. He had the book open and was shooting shots from the diagrams... trying out the system. He looked up at me and said, “You know, Dan, it works. But you need a perfect stroke.’

Those charts were put in the book by Bryon Schoeman and a lot of them are haywire. Sometimes one of my students will show me the book and say, ‘Look at this McGoorty. Hoppe says you can hit the rail here and end up there.’

‘My boy,’ I say, ‘it can’t be done. Those charts are just pretty pictures.’

Not only did Hoppe not use the diamond system, he had nothing to do with developing it. That was done by Copulus, Layton, and Clarence Jackson.

Guys like Hoppe, Cochran, and Schaefer, they knew the table so well, all the angles, all the returns, they didn’t need to use any system. They could get four out of two by elevating the cue alittle and putting a touch of masse on the ball. The system? What system? f*ck the system.’”
#####

Lou Figueroa

 

[Ed Wiggins]

However...

This subject came up recently in another thread and I quoted the pertinent passage, so, here it is, from "McGoorty."

#####
“In Hoppe’s book on how to play billiards is a long section on the diamond system, charts showing how to count the spots on the rails and figure out where to aim by using arithmetic. Now that is a joke, because he was not a system player. I went out to Navy Pier one morning during the 1950 tournament to practice and there was Hoppe all alone in the hall. He had the book open and was shooting shots from the diagrams... trying out the system. He looked up at me and said, “You know, Dan, it works. But you need a perfect stroke.’

Those charts were put in the book by Bryon Schoeman and a lot of them are haywire. Sometimes one of my students will show me the book and say, ‘Look at this McGoorty. Hoppe says you can hit the rail here and end up there.’

‘My boy,’ I say, ‘it can’t be done. Those charts are just pretty pictures.’

Not only did Hoppe not use the diamond system, he had nothing to do with developing it. That was done by Copulus, Layton, and Clarence Jackson.

Guys like Hoppe, Cochran, and Schaefer, they knew the table so well, all the angles, all the returns, they didn’t need to use any system. They could get four out of two by elevating the cue alittle and putting a touch of masse on the ball. The system? What system? f*ck the system.’”
#####

Lou Figueroa

This story has been repeated over and over.
However...............in "Billiards" magazine for 1928 I found the following
(PDF files of the magazine are at charlieursitti.com)

"Remember, all pool and billiard stories are apocryphal."

EW

 

[Bob Jewett]

This story has been repeated over and over.
However...............in "Billiards" magazine for 1928 I found the following
(PDF files of the magazine are at charlieursitti.com)

"Remember, all pool and billiard stories are apocryphal."

EW

That's interesting, but it doesn't make the diagrams in Hoppe's book any more correct and it would be nice to know which systems he actually used. More recently, Raymond Ceulemans has said that he won his first world 3-C championships without knowing any system, but then he came out with a book about them.

 

[Poolshootindon]

Interesting

Darren Everett has developed a new banking system that he says is nearly foolproof - but he's reluctant to share it with me. Probably thinks I'm the exceptional fool. :grin:

And, just like Jay, I've never used a diamond system during play. Visualization works pretty well for me. What does Efren use?

I am not sure which one it was. One of the Tar matchups I believe. Busty and Alex both said they don't use a diamond system.

Play by feel and all that experience they have.

I bet they do have another "Diamond" system though. Its called keeping the little woman happy. :thumbup:

Don

 

[sjm]

Robert Byrne himself told the story of how a 3-cushion great who played about 75 years ago named Welker Cochrane campaigned to have the diamonds removed from the table, contending that they made the game too easy. That Cochrane guy must have been quite a player to have felt that way!

 

[John Brumback]

Not many pros use them,if any.I aint never used one in my life and I can use the rails pretty decent I always said they were for looks or for the people that are too lazy to practice and tryin to find some majic bullett or shortcut.The only way they can work is if you only play on the same table all the time,then it's still a crap shoot that will only get you close.The best system is hard practcie:wink: John B.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... The only way they can work is if you only play on the same table all the time,then it's still a crap shoot that will only get you close.The best system is hard practcie:wink: John B.

While I agree that practice is important, the Tuzul system of using the diamonds has a set of calibration shots to try first on the table. The results you get from the calibration shots are then applied to shots in any of several systems. This gets you closer. It's for carom tables and those in general are more predictable than pool tables, but I think the same ideas can be applied.

 

[CreeDo]

Nothing wrong with either method... it's fair to say systems do usually need feel-based adjustment. You practice this type of adjustment and you can sort of force a system to work for you in the areas where it falls short.

The cool thing about starting with a system is sometimes you hit stuff on the first try. I've seen a buddy make a few 2 railers on unfamiliar equipment, and if he misses he dials in very fast.

To some extent, systems work based on how much faith you have in them. If someone likes the system, they'll put in the time and mental effort to learn the adjustments. If their attitude is "this is BS, I don't need no stinking system" then it will definitely not work for them, and just reinforce what they were going to believe anyway.


edit: argghh, old dead thread from years ago somehow came back. Well, still fun to discuss I guess.

 

[Ratta]

Efren uses Magic.

Efren uses his brain correctly would fit better imo

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9100 mit Tapatalk 2

 

[sjm]

I think it is a bit like the way we use the term "solar system." Not many of are quite sure what it refers to, but we know, in a broad sense to what it refers.

Most of us know it contains the sun and the planets, but few of us are inclined to think of all of the moons of the planets, satellites, comets, etc., as part of the solar system. In fact, the solar system, just like the diamond system, includes many things of which few are aware, but both terms give one a general sense of what the system includes.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I think it is a bit like the way we use the term "solar system." Not many of are quite sure what it refers to, but we know, in a broad sense to what it refers. ...

And now we can't be sure whether Pluto is still included. Or the Outer Hebrides.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

I hate to admit it, but I actually don't "know" any Diamond system well enough to use it in a game. I guess I discovered long ago that the use of English greatly affects the path of the cue ball, thus making a diamond system only a guide at best. That said, I think most experienced pool players can "see" where to aim to hit a ball. It's rare that I can't find a way to hit a hidden object ball (just ask Ming who I used to practice with for hours on end. I would tell her to try and hook me. :smile, usually finding the correct path to take.
Pool remains a game where the autonomic senses are brought into play, where we trust instinct more than logic or calculations. When our brain is in free flow mode is when we play our best pool. And I need to play some soon, as my next trip to the Philippines is only two weeks away. I'm soooo out of stroke!

I agree.
Through practice, and play, your minds eye will see the shot, and execute it to your satisfaction. The more you practice, and play, the higher that degree of satisfaction. :smile:

 

[PoolBum]

And now we can't be sure whether Pluto is still included. Or the Outer Hebrides.

The demotion of Pluto was clearly politically motivated.