Why do we even use wood, leather, and chalk anyway?

[Impact Blue]

Just throwing it out there--

With all this talk about radial consistency and lower front-end mass to decrease deflection, why aren't there carbon fiber or like equivalents made into shafts. I get the Cuetec thing with fiberglass, which is not to my liking either, but I'd like to think we've come a long way since then. Someone posted a lexan forearm cue that is more in the vein of what I'm referring to.

How hard is it to make a substance that has the friction coefficient to that of a freshly chalked tip, with the density or hardness like leather? Maybe it wouldn't mushroom or need shaping.?

(Or maybe it just sounds easy in my head; I'm obviously not of science or of any sort of product development.)

I just wonder if the traditions of this game hold us back, a 'if it's not broke, don't fix it' mindset, when there are always ways of improving and elevating our level of play.

 

[pulldapin]

No matter how hard we try, there is just no improving on mother nature!

 

[greyghost]

No matter how hard we try, there is just no improving on mother nature!

thats right......some things are not to be bettered upon...take wood for example.


Your never going to get a carbon fiber violin to sound like a Stradivarius and your never going to get the hit of a szamboti with carbon fiber

wood is infinetely more interconnecting fibers than carbon fiber could ever wish it could be. it unique its alive.......

maybe it just has the force

-Grey GHost-

 

[Impact Blue]

thats right......some things are not to be bettered upon...take wood for example.


Your never going to get a carbon fiber violin to sound like a Stradivarius and your never going to get the hit of a szamboti with carbon fiber

wood is infinetely more interconnecting fibers than carbon fiber could ever wish it could be. it unique its alive.......

maybe it just has the force

-Grey GHost-

I understand this, I do. But like Predator/OB/laminated cues (albeit made of wood) they still don't quite hit like a solid wood shaft. I imagine with all the cutting, reassembly, and glue used, they are pretty far from mother nature as well; and as hit may be subjective, if you're to quantify performance as what they advertise as lack of CB deflection, they do well in their own category in levels of consistency.

I guess, as an example, I am looking at the advent of G-10 pins as complimenting the build of a cue: plastics that (are supposed to) replicate the feeling of wood. And if you value low deflection in play, and that is built on a shaft with low front-end mass, why bother deconstructing wood when composites have just as much, if not more, to offer?

They do make CF violins. I don't know if they are really taken all that seriously by professional musicians, though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9sHo2XEYFU

 

[Impact Blue]

So I googled 'carbon fibre pool cue' and this came up. Even something like this I would try, even though it looks completely crazy; minus the metal ferrule, and if I could guarantee that the shaft is hollow or at least the 6-10 inches from the tip is lighter than that of a Predator/OB/I2 (you get the idea). A consistent thin taper like that, but plays super stiff, sounds about like what I am visualizing.

 

[Impact Blue]

Here are the lexan forearms WilleeCue posted awhile back. Very interesting looking. I think it's awesome that he even thought to try it, if you ask me!

 

[manwon]

Just throwing it out there--

With all this talk about radial consistency and lower front-end mass to decrease deflection, why aren't there carbon fiber or like equivalents made into shafts. I get the Cuetec thing with fiberglass, which is not to my liking either, but I'd like to think we've come a long way since then. Someone posted a lexan forearm cue that is more in the vein of what I'm referring to.

How hard is it to make a substance that has the friction coefficient to that of a freshly chalked tip, with the density or hardness like leather? Maybe it wouldn't mushroom or need shaping.?

(Or maybe it just sounds easy in my head; I'm obviously not of science or of any sort of product development.)

I just wonder if the traditions of this game hold us back, a 'if it's not broke, don't fix it' mindset, when there are always ways of improving and elevating our level of play.

Maybe I am the only one getting confused reading this, but here is a suggestion that may help some of us poorly educated pool players who frequent this forum.

Break it down into easily understandable paragraphs, and keep the conprehension level to about a tenth grade reading level I think then you will get more responces to your questions!!!!!:smile:

Good Luck

 

[Impact Blue]

Maybe I am the only one getting confused reading this, but here is a suggestion that may help some of us poorly educated pool players who frequent this forum.

Break it down into easily understandable paragraphs, and keep the conprehension level to about a tenth grade reading level I think then you will get more responces to your questions!!!!!:smile:

Good Luck

LOL, thanks Manwon. Congrats on having almost 11,000 posts!! That's a HUGE number. I'm a member of various web forums, seeing that is a rare & incredible feat. Kudos!

Okay, so what I'm saying is, in more layman's terms:

1. Why can't we make a plastic (or whatever material) shaft that plays like wood, or is just lighter than wood but is strong enough play well?
   
2. Why can't we make a rubber (or synthetic/composite) tip that is as grippy as leather that has chalk on it?

 

[sponge bob]

I'm a big fan of technology and will always be there trying the next new "thing".

I know there are very many traditionalists that will never stray from the tried and trued method of current cue making. However, I believe that there could be better tools made out of better materials for the act of accurately hitting one sphere into another.

If there was as much exposure and money in pool as there is in, say golf, I have no doubt we'd have full cues constructed of man made materials which would have had countless of engineering hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars spent in research and development made to outperform current cues in every way.

 

[JoeyInCali]

When they make a synthetic violin sound as good as the Strad, we'll start talking.

 

[Systim6]

I remember being down in Phoenix at a pool hall and had only been playing about one year or so. I saw a guy shooting with a predator sneaky and I was thinking about getting one cause of all the hype on the internet about low deflection, make you a better player blah blah blah.

anyway, I walked up to him and asked "How's that cue play?" he said "Eh, It plays about as good as I do."

I'll never ever forget that and since then I've never worried too much about what I play with, give me a decent tip, some chalk and I'm good to go.

I hate all the hype on what will "Improve" your game, this tip that tip, this shaft or that one. One thing I know for sure that will improve your game.....practice. It's that simple.

 

[Masayoshi]

Because pool shots are rarely if ever missed due to the cue. Honestly, have you ever seen somebody miss a shot and honestly thought "he would have made that if he was using a Predator"

 

[Thunder Thighs]

Why do we even use wood, leather, and chalk anyway?

Actually, that's a very good question. From an engineering standpoint, there should be a vast amount of materials and construction techniques that could provide more consistency and feel of a standard cue as we know it. The question is, is the market ready for such a cue and will anybody invest the time and money for R&D and production of such a cue? Will it be economically viable as a business venture? Cuetec still exists as well as other El Cheapo brands, so maybe it is. But I think they cater to a different clientele from those that post here on AZB.

Fiberglass/Graphite cues are generally looked down upon by pool players and collectors. For the record, I don't like them. Most (if not all) will say they are crap. But they are consistent crap aren't they? If 99.9% of those play awful, then they are consistently awful. Now what would it take to make them consistently good?

Fact is, supply and demand will dictate everything and there are two markets that cue manufacturers/makers cater to. Those that will pay a lot for a cue and those that won't.

So back to the original essence of the question. Is it possible to make a high tech cue that would impress cue enthusiasts in a blind test? Yes. Would they buy the cue after the blindfold is taken off? Doubt it.

 

[JB Cases]

Just throwing it out there--

With all this talk about radial consistency and lower front-end mass to decrease deflection, why aren't there carbon fiber or like equivalents made into shafts. I get the Cuetec thing with fiberglass, which is not to my liking either, but I'd like to think we've come a long way since then. Someone posted a lexan forearm cue that is more in the vein of what I'm referring to.

How hard is it to make a substance that has the friction coefficient to that of a freshly chalked tip, with the density or hardness like leather? Maybe it wouldn't mushroom or need shaping.?

(Or maybe it just sounds easy in my head; I'm obviously not of science or of any sort of product development.)

I just wonder if the traditions of this game hold us back, a 'if it's not broke, don't fix it' mindset, when there are always ways of improving and elevating our level of play.

Actually Allan McCarthy, one of the founders of Predator, believes that composites are the way of the future when it comes to pool cues.

The Future Tip was a composite tip that never really got going which was supposed to be the replacement for leather.

You will never be able to make a solid substance that has the same friction as a chalked tip forever. The constant hammering that shooting a 20oz tip into a 6oz hard ball will wear down anything that is not harder than the ball.

So far the resiliency of a leather tip combined with what we call chalk seems to be the best solution for applying sidepsin.

Many people have tried rubber. I think that rubber MIGHT be the best choice for making a tip that never needs chalk. But I also believe that someone will have to spend a good amount of time developing just the right kind of rubber to be the equivalent or better than leather + chalk.

There are no shortage of people working on the next big thing in pool. Looking back through patents from the last 100 years it's very interesting to see all the things people have invented along these lines.

McDermott does put carbon fiber into their shafts. Fury has tried carbon fiber rods in shafts as well as phenolic rods.

CueTec of course makes carbon fiber and fiberglass cues, so does Smart Cue. I have some Smart Cue carbon fiber shafts in my shop that play pretty sporty actually.

But they are too expensive to bring to market. Pool is not a market where you can sell $500 non-traditional shafts and cues without some heavy weight marketing and advertising behind them. Predator is a prime example. After 20 years people are still debating whether the shafts even work as advertised and Predator still has to work hard to continually seed the market to keep people interested.

Wood and leather are just nice easy natural materials to work with. They play well with other materials and are easy to get.

I guarantee you that if pool were as big as tennis or golf in terms of equipment sales then we'd see a LOT more development with composites.

As it is CueTec has really done a lot in that area. The R-360 cue really does feel solid and is unlike previous versions of Cuetecs which had kind of a dead hit compared to wood.

Still Allison and Earl did win a lot of hardware using their "old" Cuetecs.

 

[Shaft]

I'm a big fan of technology and will always be there trying the next new "thing".

I know there are very many traditionalists that will never stray from the tried and trued method of current cue making. However, I believe that there could be better tools made out of better materials for the act of accurately hitting one sphere into another.

If there was as much exposure and money in pool as there is in, say golf, I have no doubt we'd have full cues constructed of man made materials which would have had countless of engineering hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars spent in research and development made to outperform current cues in every way.

You beat me to it. I completely agree. If we had stuck with tradition, we would still be using:

Tables with warped wooden beds instead of slate
Ivory balls that shrank and did not stay round
The butt end of the cue to hit the balls with
Leather-less tips and no chalk
tables with no rubber cushions on the rails​

As for wood, it IS an amazing and beautiful material. but it is not perfect. No two pieces of wood are the same, therefore manufacturing consistency and and performance predictability are elusive. Who can say there is no material yet to be invented that will have the positive qualities of wood, plus a few more, and less of the negative qualities?

 

[JB Cases]

When they make a synthetic violin sound as good as the Strad, we'll start talking.

They are working on it. http://www.luisandclark.com/

For $5000 you can have one.

They make carbon fiber guitars as well.

I am currently making some cases for some electric guitars made out of aluminum.

There is no reason to think that man cannot come up with manufactured materials to replace anything found in nature. All cellular things are built from carbon and chemicals.

The thing that makes wood popular is that it's easy to get, easy to work, and can be made beautiful in a variety of ways. You can do a lot with it like balancing a pool cue in different ways by what wood is used at what points and what diameters are used as well as how it is cored.

Wood is romantic and thought to have a soul. It is peaceful and unique.

Looking at the stuff Eric Crisp does there is no way I would replace a cue of his with a carbon fiber cue unless it was absolutely essential to my game and the performance were dramatically different.

That's why leather in cases and wood in cues remains the majority of what's out there for those who look for elegance and performance.

It's a certainty that more CueTecs have been sold than all the "custom" cues ever built.

But I would argue that the average "custom" cue evokes more pride of ownership and sense of balance to the owner than any CueTec.

We should consider ourselves lucky that pool isn't bigger or custom cue making would probably die out just as there are very very few customer club makers any more in Golf and no custom Tennis racquet makers in tennis.