Why do we use such larger tips than snooker players?

ddadams

ddadams

Absolutely love this cue.
Silver Member
Just curious.

I'm pretty new to pool as far as actually knowing what the hell I'm doing. I've always loved the game but never had the opportunity to learn as I never had a table available until I turned 21.

Now that I actually know what I'm doing (yeah right) and can run a few racks every now and then I'm wondering why cues use such a full thick shaft?

In snooker most of the tips I see pros use are 10mm or so to give them better control as I understand?

I've recently switched to an OB2 at 11.75 and it has really changed my game, I'm doing stuff I only dreamed of doing and have gotten SO much better with just this change.


I almost want to get a shaft made even smaller though.



Is there any specific reason as to why "American pool" players don't use such small tips like snooker players?
 
Becuase we have bigger balls, lol. Seriously, the balls we use are bigger than the ones used in snooker.
 
ddadams said:
Just curious.

I'm pretty new to pool as far as actually knowing what the hell I'm doing. I've always loved the game but never had the opportunity to learn as I never had a table available until I turned 21.

Now that I actually know what I'm doing (yeah right) and can run a few racks every now and then I'm wondering why cues use such a full thick shaft?

In snooker most of the tips I see pros use are 10mm or so to give them better control as I understand?

I've recently switched to an OB2 at 11.75 and it has really changed my game, I'm doing stuff I only dreamed of doing and have gotten SO much better with just this change.


I almost want to get a shaft made even smaller though.



Is there any specific reason as to why "American pool" players don't use such small tips like snooker players?
Click to expand...



That is a good observation, but look more closely and you will see that in most cases the shaft is not Maple. The typical wood used for a Snooker cue shaft is Ash, it is stiffer than Maple which allows the shaft to be turned to such a small diameter. Like another said, the shaft size / tip must be smaller to accurate hit the ball where you want to. In addition the ferrules on Snooker cues are in many cases made from Brass to also give the end of the shaft more protection from the tip hitting the cue ball hard.

The main reason that 10 mm shafts for not used for normal pocket billiards is due to the amount of flex that would occur when striking the cue ball. This flex is also better known as deflection and due to a 2 1/4 inch balls weight and size would make a shaft that small very counter productive. Now I have seen some good players that play with very shaft diameters, however, they are the exception not the norm for games other than Snooker.
 
Last edited:
manwon said:
That is a good observation, but look more closely and you will see that in most cases the shaft is not Maple. The topical wood used for a Snooker cue shaft is Ash, it is stiffer than Maple which allows the shaft to be turned to such a small diameter. Like another said, the shaft size / tip must be smaller to accurate hit the ball where you want to. In addition the ferrules on Snooker cues are in many cases made from Brass to also give the end of the shaft more protection from the tip hitting the cue ball hard.

The main reason that 10 mm shafts for not used for normal pocket billiards is due to the amount of flex that would occur when striking the cue ball. This flex is also better known as deflection and due to a 2 1/4 inch balls weight and size would make a shaft that small very counter productive. Now I have seen some good players that play with very shaft diameters, however, they are the exception not the norm for games other than Snooker.
Click to expand...


Interesting.

Has anyone ever seen someone have a shaft made out of ash for American pool games?

I was going to see about getting an 11.25mm tip shaft made but if it might be counterproductive I don't think I will waste the money.

Contrary to popular belief just from 13mm to 11.75 I must say smaller is better. For me at least.
 
ddadams said:
Interesting.

Has anyone ever seen someone have a shaft made out of ash for American pool games?

I was going to see about getting an 11.25mm tip shaft made but if it might be counterproductive I don't think I will waste the money.

Contrary to popular belief just from 13mm to 11.75 I must say smaller is better. For me at least.
Click to expand...



Like I said above some people play well with a tiny shaft. Predator makes a small shaft with low deflection called the Z-Shaft. The Z-shaft is 11.75 mm, but the main reason that this will work is because the shaft is not a single piece. These shafts are a pie shaped laminated splice which makes it stiff enough to preform well, and in addition to the lower weight of the shafts end mass.

The reason Ash is not normally used on pool cue shafts for pool other than Snooker is because if a Ash shaft was a normal diameter say 13mm to 12.5 mm it is just to stiff for most players. The sizes listed above are the norm for most pool players.

Hope this helps.
 
manwon said:
Like I said above some people play well with a tiny shaft. Predator makes a small shaft with low deflection called the Z-Shaft. The Z-shaft is 11.75 mm, but the main reason that this will work is because the shaft is not a single piece. These shafts are a pie shaped laminated splice which makes it stiff enough to preform well, and in addition to the lower weight of the shafts end mass.

The reason Ash is not normally used on pool cue shafts for pool other than Snooker is because if a Ash shaft was a normal diameter say 13mm to 12.5 mm it is just to stiff for most players. The sizes listed above are the norm for most pool players.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Yeah I was torn between the Z2 and the OB2 but after reading reviews I decided to jump on the opportunity when a barely used OB2 for my Josey went up for sale.

Best money I've spent on this game so far IMHO.

I'd be interested in hearing if anyones seen a normal cue with an ash shaft
 
practice lot of diferent strokes and shots with a snooker cue and with a pool cue (11.75mm shaft) after an hour or two you will feel and understand what is right for your self.Try a lot of draw shots (straight or at an angle) and a table lengh 3/4 or 4/5 ball (close to the pocket ) and try to bring the cue ball back again.
playing cue:Joss wit a 314shaft
 
ddadams:
Why do we use such larger tips than snooker players?
Click to expand...
Mostly tradition. A small tipped cue can be just as stiff or even stiffer than a larger tipped one, and it has the advantages of better visibility and less squirt (but not easier spin as some think). I've used a tip that's less than 10mm (and hollow) for many years.

pj
chgo
 
ddadams said:
I'd be interested in hearing if anyones seen a normal cue with an ash shaft
Click to expand...

There's a reason isn't hasn't been done. I'm also a guitar player and the guitars I've owned made of ash I've noticed a few things. One for a neck of a guitar, its made of maple as a support. The maple holds up better to the string tension. For the body if made of ash, it dings easier and isn't as durable as other woods. Also the density isn't consistent and will warp easier.

If you do get one made, I'd be interested in seeing how well it holds up, how it plays and how long before it starts to warp or gets dinged beyond playability.

You may want to post the ash question in the cue makers forum and see what results you get.
 
What about billiard balls?

manwon said:
That is a good observation, but look more closely and you will see that in most cases the shaft is not Maple. The topical wood used for a Snooker cue shaft is Ash, it is stiffer than Maple which allows the shaft to be turned to such a small diameter. Like another said, the shaft size / tip must be smaller to accurate hit the ball where you want to. In addition the ferrules on Snooker cues are in many cases made from Brass to also give the end of the shaft more protection from the tip hitting the cue ball hard.

The main reason that 10 mm shafts for not used for normal pocket billiards is due to the amount of flex that would occur when striking the cue ball. This flex is also better known as deflection and due to a 2 1/4 inch balls weight and size would make a shaft that small very counter productive. Now I have seen some good players that play with very shaft diameters, however, they are the exception not the norm for games other than Snooker.
Click to expand...

I believe "deflection" is the result of "flex".
What you say about smaller tips and regulation size balls seems to make sense, but then 3-cushion billiard players play with even larger billiard balls and they also tend to use thinner shafts...
 
ddadams said:
Just curious.

I'm pretty new to pool as far as actually knowing what the hell I'm doing. I've always loved the game but never had the opportunity to learn as I never had a table available until I turned 21.

Now that I actually know what I'm doing (yeah right) and can run a few racks every now and then I'm wondering why cues use such a full thick shaft?

In snooker most of the tips I see pros use are 10mm or so to give them better control as I understand?

I've recently switched to an OB2 at 11.75 and it has really changed my game, I'm doing stuff I only dreamed of doing and have gotten SO much better with just this change.


I almost want to get a shaft made even smaller though.



Is there any specific reason as to why "American pool" players don't use such small tips like snooker players?
Click to expand...

Our balls are bigger lol
 
English 8-ball - 2" balls, 1 7/8"cue ball - 8.5 mm tip

Snooker - 2 1/16" balls - 9 to 10 mm tip

Pyramid - 68 mm (nearly 2 3/4") - 14 mm tip

Lots of snooker players have maple shafts.
 
desertshark said:
There's a reason isn't hasn't been done. I'm also a guitar player and the guitars I've owned made of ash I've noticed a few things. One for a neck of a guitar, its made of maple as a support. The maple holds up better to the string tension. For the body if made of ash, it dings easier and isn't as durable as other woods. Also the density isn't consistent and will warp easier.

If you do get one made, I'd be interested in seeing how well it holds up, how it plays and how long before it starts to warp or gets dinged beyond playability.

You may want to post the ash question in the cue makers forum and see what results you get.
Click to expand...

Great post. There's a well-known "hardness indicator" of woods, called the Janka Hardness test. It tests a wood's resistance to being dinged -- in other words, how easily or difficult is it to break or deform the fibers of the wood. The nearly-complete Janka Hardness test listing is shown here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test

Here are some extracts of the results, for some common woods we're all familiar with for various uses (not just cuemaking):

Hickory / Pecan, Satinwood ......... 1820
Sweet Birch ........................ 1470
Hard Maple / Sugar Maple ........... 1450
White Oak .......................... 1360
Ash (White) ........................ 1320

As you can see, Hard Maple scores significantly better in the Janka Hardness test than Ash.

So it makes sense that while Ash tends to be more of a stiff/brittle wood than Maple, Maple is a more resilient wood for cue shafts than Ash.

Side observation:
If I'd not have as much experience with Hickory as I do, I would otherwise be utterly dumbstruck at how higher on the Janka Hardness test that Hickory shows up over Oak -- which, being brought up in the northeast U.S., was always taught in my childhood that Oak wood was among the hardest of the hardwoods.

However, after having cleaned up after a tornado that cut through my area a couple years ago -- a tornado of which hit a cluster of Hickory trees and pulled a few down onto some houses -- I was blown away at just how hard and difficult to cut Hickory wood was. It actually dulls the blades on chainsaws, and after a few hours of cutting, you have to change or sharpen your chain. Then, try lifting those logs -- they feel like lead! Splitting the wood (with either a hydraulic or electric log splitter, or even a sledge hammer and wedges) was another challenge -- the wood resists splitting until its breaking point is reached, at which time it lets go with a loud <pow!> or <bang!>.

My experience with this wood has inspired the thought of getting a cue -- or even just a shaft -- made from Hickory. Yes, I know it will be very heavy, but I prefer heavy cues anyway (I play with a 21-ounce cue). I just think I'd like the stiff hit, and the extreme hardness of this wood would make it conducive to small tip diameters, which I also prefer.

Anyone have any thoughts on a shaft made from Hickory?

-Sean <-- will also post this question in the Ask the Cuemaker forum
 
Last edited:
Because pool balls are bigger and heavier.
While smaller shaft diameters may help you sight better, the sacrifice may be lack of control and accuracy if your stroke isn't bang on. Imo experiment and find your own tip size to ball size ratio, i personally like two shaft sizes 13 and 12.4, I'd like to try a 13.5 or 14mm for shits and giggles, may come in handy for playing with valley mudballs.

I tried playing with a z shaft many times, but I found moving the cueball around was tougher on slow table conditions unless I bumped the weight up on my cue to 20+oz.
 
Last edited:
ddadams said:
I've recently switched to an OB2 at 11.75 and it has really changed my game, I'm doing stuff I only dreamed of doing and have gotten SO much better with just this change.

I almost want to get a shaft made even smaller though.
Click to expand...
--------------------------------------------
I've known a few players who were a bit shorter than average (with proportionally smaller hands) who found their game improved a great deal when they switched, as you did, to a smaller diameter shaft.

Arnaldo
 
Patrick, I said Snoker, not Snooker. Totally different game that we play in Canada. Other than that, I was joking.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top