Why has no one beat Mosconi's high run?
- Thread starter nineballsafety8
- Start date
Mosconi's high run is definitely breakable, but who cares? As many have theorized, Mosconi and the other straight pool greats of the era probably had higher runs in practice.
One thing I'll continue to argue against, though is the idea that the players of today are better than past players, not because I'm one for nostalgia, but because there's is no evidence to support that idea.
Cue sports and their players don't "evolve" like other sports and athletes. We can easily see that Bob Cousy would be no match for Stephen Curry and that if the two hand set shot was used in the modern era it'd get rejected every time, but for cue sports, the only barometer for skill is what you do at the table, and players of the past ran balls just as prolifically as players of today.
And no, equipment wasn't easier and "buckets" weren't used for pockets. As mentioned, they played on 5' x 10's until the 40's, the Ivory balls in use were heavier and a bit bigger, cloth was slow nap (which, contrary to another opinion in this thread, would make straight pool harder, especially considering the balls were heavier. More likely you get stuck in the pack, more clusters to deal with, etc), and pockets were just as tight if not tighter. Pocket from a Greenleaf/Rudolph exhibition:
Someone might say, "Well, ever since Efren arrived, he really changed the game with his kicking. I don't think a past player would have the knowledge to compete, since kicking wasn't used much."
This is also wrong. What makes Efren such a great kicker? The fact he plays carom billiards at a high level. Up until the 50's, carom billiards was a pool player's "2nd game." All those straight pool players of the era played billiards at a high/world class level. Ralph Greenleaf took 3rd in the World 3 Cushion Championship in 1942, when he was already past his prime.
I also like to use Ray Martin's multi-decade career in this argument. in 2011, he cashed in the 14.1 Worlds and beat Oliver Ortmann, a "modern player."
Furthermore, in 1994, at 58, he finished 5th in the WPA World 9 Ball championship. Granted, WPA fields were weaker in those days, since the top pros were playing on the PBTA, but Martin finished ahead of Mika, Warren Kiamco, Oliver Ortmann, Thomas Engert, Ralf Souquet, Bobby Hunter, Morro, Ernesto, and many others.
Sure, fundamentals have gotten better and tighter, but you can change your mechanics if need be. If Mosconi, transported to the present day, was having trouble, he could hire a coach to tweak his game/mechanics, a luxury he didn't have in his era. He might be even better today because of that fact.
One thing I'll continue to argue against, though is the idea that the players of today are better than past players, not because I'm one for nostalgia, but because there's is no evidence to support that idea.
Cue sports and their players don't "evolve" like other sports and athletes. We can easily see that Bob Cousy would be no match for Stephen Curry and that if the two hand set shot was used in the modern era it'd get rejected every time, but for cue sports, the only barometer for skill is what you do at the table, and players of the past ran balls just as prolifically as players of today.
And no, equipment wasn't easier and "buckets" weren't used for pockets. As mentioned, they played on 5' x 10's until the 40's, the Ivory balls in use were heavier and a bit bigger, cloth was slow nap (which, contrary to another opinion in this thread, would make straight pool harder, especially considering the balls were heavier. More likely you get stuck in the pack, more clusters to deal with, etc), and pockets were just as tight if not tighter. Pocket from a Greenleaf/Rudolph exhibition:
Someone might say, "Well, ever since Efren arrived, he really changed the game with his kicking. I don't think a past player would have the knowledge to compete, since kicking wasn't used much."
This is also wrong. What makes Efren such a great kicker? The fact he plays carom billiards at a high level. Up until the 50's, carom billiards was a pool player's "2nd game." All those straight pool players of the era played billiards at a high/world class level. Ralph Greenleaf took 3rd in the World 3 Cushion Championship in 1942, when he was already past his prime.
I also like to use Ray Martin's multi-decade career in this argument. in 2011, he cashed in the 14.1 Worlds and beat Oliver Ortmann, a "modern player."
Furthermore, in 1994, at 58, he finished 5th in the WPA World 9 Ball championship. Granted, WPA fields were weaker in those days, since the top pros were playing on the PBTA, but Martin finished ahead of Mika, Warren Kiamco, Oliver Ortmann, Thomas Engert, Ralf Souquet, Bobby Hunter, Morro, Ernesto, and many others.
Sure, fundamentals have gotten better and tighter, but you can change your mechanics if need be. If Mosconi, transported to the present day, was having trouble, he could hire a coach to tweak his game/mechanics, a luxury he didn't have in his era. He might be even better today because of that fact.
I just beat Mosconi's high run a couple days ago, I ran 529. The only problem is that I did not start recording until the 36th rack because I did not think my run would last so long. I do have video of me running 5 balls of the 36th rack though if thats enough proof. What do you think????:thumbup:
I've searched for the article that described that day.....it was written in one of the newspaper type billiard type digests........monthly publication back in the 90's.........The title was something akin to "the Day I Scared Mosconi" and it was a story about Earl Bruney in which the author of the article described in detail what the day was like when Willie showed up for the exhibition. In the article, it described what Willie was doing barnstorming the nation with exhibitions......and in the article, it explained that Willie had already played another match before arriving. Earl apparently was a pretty good player in his own right but no one could have beaten Willie that day he ran 526.......talk about being in the zone.
The irony of the situation was that there was a major tournament taking place that day as well, in Mosconi's home state, so many people wondered, and even gave him shit for not being there " to defend his title" so to speak. But he was on that exhibition tour and under contract, so he couldn't go. Makes you wonder if that record ever would have happened if he had played in tournament instead.
Mosconi said his high run was 609. 526 just happened with a notary public in the audience.
The main difference was that the 526 was in an announced exhibition. I think that Mosconi does not hold the high practice run record (to the extent that such a thing exists). See this about Cranfield.
And Mike Eufemia insisted that he had a 625 in an exhibition. The record was not recognized for lack of documentation.
I'm gonna argue the other way.
Agreed, there is no direct "evidence" that pool players today are better. The evidence is that in almost every other sport, the players of today are better, so you can infer that today's pool players are also better.
In timed sports (swimming etc), its indisputable.
In many non-timed sports (basketball etc) its clear via video.
In sports that don't require a ton of physical talent (golf, race car driving, bowling, pool, etc) modern players benefit from better health, better coaching, better training, better information (the internet, etc), and yes, even better equipment.
A lot has to do with what sports are popular today vs popular in generations past (like straight pool).
You should also discount once-in-a-lifetime talents like Babe Ruth, Mosconi, Michael Jordan, etc, they would have been great in any era, but they don't accurately reflect the majority of players playing at that time.
You should also make an adjustment for the greater popularity of pool in general generations ago, you used to be able to make a living playing pool !.....
If Mosconi was born today, he wouldn't even be playing pool, he would probably be a poker player :frown:
According to his autobiography, the reason Mosconi didn't play in that tournament (in Philadelphia) wasn't that he couldn't (because of exhibition commitments) but that he wouldn't. And he wouldn't because it was not sanctioned/sponsored by the Billiard Congress of America, and the money was small.
(Sounds like modern-day stuff.:smile
I'm gonna argue the other way.
Agreed, there is no direct "evidence" that pool players today are better. The evidence is that in almost every other sport, the players of today are better, so you can infer that today's pool players are also better.
In timed sports (swimming etc), its indisputable.
In many non-timed sports (basketball etc) its clear via video.
In sports that don't require a ton of physical talent (golf, race car driving, bowling, pool, etc) modern players benefit from better health, better coaching, better training, better information (the internet, etc), and yes, even better equipment.
A lot has to do with what sports are popular today vs popular in generations past (like straight pool).
You should also discount once-in-a-lifetime talents like Babe Ruth, Mosconi, Michael Jordan, etc, they would have been great in any era, but they don't accurately reflect the majority of players playing at that time.
You should also make an adjustment for the greater popularity of pool in general generations ago, you used to be able to make a living playing pool !.....
If Mosconi was born today, he wouldn't even be playing pool, he would probably be a poker player :frown:
I honestly think pool playing "training" has devolved, at least in the U.S., over the past 20-30 years all the way back to Greenleaf's era. You can only get so good learning from an instructor and playing short race organized tournaments. The players of the past simply put an exponential amount of more hours in, from gambling sessions lasting a week to tirelessly playing exhibitions (which were taken more seriously back then), round robin tournaments that would last a couple of weeks, and challenge matches. Their games were also more well rounded, especially given how popular carom billiards was. There's even a photo of Greenleaf playing snooker (snooker was much more popular in the US then as it is now).
You also bring up a good point about pool's popularity back then. That translates into a deeper talent pool, better competition, and more access to tables and people to play (since there was like a pool hall on every street corner).
When I compare cue sports to other sports, I don't just see any leap on the player side of the equation. Now better equipment has definitely made the game easier, but those past players would also have access to that same equipment if they were transported to this era.
Fundamentals have gotten marginally better, but Mosconi, Jersey Red, Irving Crane, Jimmy Caras were all rock solid. There's not much to "improve" there, aside from maybe having them get down lower (but as long as their vision center is aligned, it really doesn't matter). Greenleaf had an odd stance and approach, but it didn't keep him from running hundreds at a rate of all pool greats, from that era or this one.
Mosconi didn't care. He'd run 100 every night and quit to do trick shots. He didn't keep going every time for a high run and he didn't lock himself up in a room with perfect conditions to try and see, over and over, how many he could run. All these guys nowadays are saying: put up $100K and the record would be broken.
lol, if you had said that to Mosconi the record might well be over 1,000.
Lou Figueroa
Last edited:
are you saying "high runs" were not really a big deal back then, players just wanted to win tournaments?
(probably true, Michael Jordan never bothered to see how many free throws he could make in a row, he wanted to win titles)
I doubt that Jordan could break the record for most free throws made in a row, which is 5,221.
I bet he could if you offered him $100k
Correct Lou. Too many here are trying to re market this achievement by Mosconi to suit their own theories. Trying to rewrite History! They have pets of their own they want on top instead.
NYC cue dude
Banned
Flawed analysis. "Back in the day", the world was really small. During Mosconi's time, and before, you'll notice that all the champions were American. All the players were American. It's only been 25-30 years that we started to see players like Ortmann and Efren infiltrate the American pool scene. It is these two players who began the exportation of European and Asian players. Furthermore, at that time, the talent pool expanded by a BILLION more potential champions once the Europeans and Asians (Philippinos in particular) started coming. Over the last 20 years, the best players in the world have not been from America. Over the last 10 years, foreign players have dominated everything. With the Chinese and Taiwanese monsters emerging recently (last 10-15 years), they have the most potential for creating the largest amount of "world-beaters" in the near future. Without SVB, America looks impotent comparatively speaking.
If Mosconi's record were to ever be broken, it would undoubtedly be done by a European. Engert from Germany has come the closest with a documented run of 492. He told me the last two racks, as he closed in on 500, he was physically shaking. Had he gotten there, he would've likely had a very high total when finished.
Just recently, Hohmann was offered the opportunity to lock himself up in a room with an 8fter (similar in every way to Mosconi era equipment, except the cloth) that is outfitted with multiple cameras, in order to pursue the record. His high run, accomplished in a room full of witnesses, was 404. IMO, if there was a standing bounty, it might make it worth the effort. Furthermore, for the record to be worth pursuing, it must be filmed. The finished product (CD) must have the complete run, accompanied by the run with dubbed commentary, explaining the thought process of each shot (similar to what JS has done in the past). I have no doubt that CD with a run of 526 or more, would become pools most profitable pool video of all time. Unfortunately, we are talking about potential sales in the thousands, perhaps eventually 10's of thousands. Sadly, an historical achievement such as that isn't going to make anyone rich or famous.
If Engert's run was on a 9 foot table I think it's more impressive than Mosconi's 526.