Why has no one beat Mosconi's high run?

[Sloppy Pockets]

Name one player who gets paid to go around the country playing exhibition straight-pool on 8 foot tables with 5" corners all year .

Yes, that is the real reason.


There are many players today that shoot straighter and have a better CB than Mosconi had, but they don't play the game every day for hours on easy equipment. I'm sure Willie had greater straight pool knowledge than most of today's players, so his patterns and breaks gave him an advantage, but put guys like SVB, Dechaine, Shaw, Daz, and Orcullo on that same easy equipment and put $100K up for the first one to break the record and I'm sure it would fall in a matter of months.

 

[lfigueroa]

Yes, that is the real reason.


There are many players today that shoot straighter and have a better CB than Mosconi had, but they don't play the game every day for hours on easy equipment. I'm sure Willie had greater straight pool knowledge than most of today's players, so his patterns and breaks gave him an advantage, but put guys like SVB, Dechaine, Shaw, Daz, and Orcullo on that same easy equipment and put $100K up for the first one to break the record and I'm sure it would fall in a matter of months.

Must have been the easy equipment.

Forget about that 10' table with 4" pockets call "Bertha the Box" he liked to play on in Philly. And those 15 World Championships against guys who did nothing but play straight pool, meh.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Straightpool_99]

Must have been the easy equipment.

Forget about that 10' table with 4" pockets call "Bertha the Box" he liked to play on in Philly. And those 15 World Championships against guys who did nothing but play straight pool, meh.

Lou Figueroa

Agree 100%. What the heck are people thinking? 15 world championships, 15!!!! I believe his high run on a 10 footer was close to or over 300 balls, but I can't find the actual number right now.

While Mosconis high run was a marvelous achievement, the only thing it actually tells us is that he was AT LEAST able to run that many balls. It doesn't mean that he was incapable of running an even higher number. The unique thing was that he did it in front of lots of witnesses. He didn't spend all his life, or even 6 months trying to beat this record, he just did it on a whim. It would thus be pretty unfair to say that if someone was to spend all his time over 6 months trying to break the record, he would be a better straight pool player than him. Win 15 world championships, then come back to me. You may say that todays players are at an overall higher level, but think about this for a moment: At the time straight pool was the main game, which attracted the best shooters. Like the 9 ball world championship today.

Of the players active today, the closest to Mosconi when it comes to straight pool world championships are Hohman who has 4, and Ortman who has 2...and getting longer in the tooth. I hear he still plays great, though.Hohmann needs to win 11 more times to tie Mosconi...Think about that for a moment. No one will ever come close to 15 ever again.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Agree 100%. What the heck are people thinking? 15 world championships, 15!!!! I believe his high run on a 10 footer was close to or over 300 balls, but I can't find the actual number right now.

While Mosconis high run was a marvelous achievement, the only thing it actually tells us is that he was AT LEAST able to run that many balls. It doesn't mean that he was incapable of running an even higher number. The unique thing was that he did it in front of lots of witnesses. He didn't spend all his life, or even 6 months trying to beat this record, he just did it on a whim. It would thus be pretty unfair to say that if someone was to spend all his time over 6 months trying to break the record, he would be a better straight pool player than him. Win 15 world championships, then come back to me. You may say that todays players are at an overall higher level, but think about this for a moment: At the time straight pool was the main game, which attracted the best shooters. Like the 9 ball world championship today.

Of the players active today, the closest to Mosconi when it comes to straight pool world championships are Hohman who has 4, and Ortman who has 2...and getting longer in the tooth. I hear he still plays great, though.Hohmann needs to win 11 more times to tie Mosconi...Think about that for a moment. No one will ever come close to 15 ever again.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Mosconi's record, I'm just responding as to why it hasn't been broken. The real reason why is that the best pros today don't spend a lot of time trying to break it, or even playing the game. And they haven't for a long time now.

There's been plenty of raw natural cue talent since Mosconi's day. If you really think he was that much of a freak of nature, all I can say is that many feel differently. IMO if Hendry and O'Sullivan had learned 14.1 at their father's knee, they'd be knocking out 600s on a snooker table.

 

[Straightpool_99]

I'm not trying to take anything away from Mosconi's record, I'm just responding as to why it hasn't been broken. The real reason why is that the best pros today don't spend a lot of time trying to break it, or even playing the game. And they haven't for a long time now.

There's been plenty of raw natural cue talent since Mosconi's day. If you really think he was that much of a freak of nature, all I can say is that many feel differently. IMO if Hendry and O'Sullivan had learned 14.1 at their father's knee, they'd be knocking out 600s on a snooker table.

Making 600 balls on a professional standard snooker table is IMPOSSIBLE. I don't care who you are, that's not going to happen in a million years. The reason is the extreme tightness of the pockets and the cloth. The balls just don't break up very well. In my high run on a pool table I got 3 "half skids". Bad contacts that didn't result in a miss, but still effected the accuracy of the shot. On a snooker table, the run would have been over at the first one. High runs in straight pool takes both luck and skill, but on a snooker table, there is just too much working against you. The tightness of the pockets and stickyness of the balls on comparatively slower cloth just wears you down...and any bad contact will cause a miss.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Let's get the facts straight......OK?

In August 1949, the BCA shortened the standard pool table from 5 x 10 to 4 1/2 x 9 (except for championship play) and the majority of Willie's many world championships were accomplished on 10' pool tables..........he only played on that 4x8 table the day he ran 526 because of his contract with Brunswick that mandated every touring player under contract to Brunswick could "only" shoot pool on Brunswick pool tables........the 4x8 was the only size Brunswick the pool hall had and so that's why Willie shot the exhibition that day on a 4x8 table.........look at Mosconi's records and high runs on a 5x10 table......and that day he ran 526, Willie drove a couple of hundred miles in a car after performing another exhibition that day before he reached that 2nd pool hall and ran 526 ice cold right out of the box without any warm-up or practice shots......from the car to the table to 526........that's seems inhuman

526......it's only a number right........that no one has matched..........and if Willie was still alive and in his prime, I betcha he'd break that record today.......Mr. Mosconi is the greatest to ever hold a pool cue.

Matt B.



p.s. April 22, 1954......Willie broke the world record of 309 he held with Crane.....that day he pocketed 322.
November, 1954, Willie broke his record by running 365 balls. playing Nixon Jones in N.C.

And of course (exhibition only) ...... 526....., March 19, 1954 Springfield, Ohio.........Willie frequently ran 150 balls and out in Straight Pool against the World's Best........and this was consistently achieved on 10' and 9' tables.

 

[lfigueroa]

I'm not trying to take anything away from Mosconi's record, I'm just responding as to why it hasn't been broken. The real reason why is that the best pros today don't spend a lot of time trying to break it, or even playing the game. And they haven't for a long time now.

There's been plenty of raw natural cue talent since Mosconi's day. If you really think he was that much of a freak of nature, all I can say is that many feel differently. IMO if Hendry and O'Sullivan had learned 14.1 at their father's knee, they'd be knocking out 600s on a snooker table.

600 on a snooker table will never happen.

And, having seen most of the present day pros play and having seen Mosconi several times when he was well past his prime, I can assure you that no one today -- no one -- plays 14.1 like he did. He was a freak of nature, a savant, the 500-year-flood.

Greatest straight pool player of all time.

Lou Figueroa

 

[AtLarge]

... I believe his high run on a 10 footer was close to or over 300 balls, but I can't find the actual number right now. ...

309

Irving Crane set the exhibition record of 309 on a 10-footer in 1939. Mosconi tied it in 1945.

[Info from Mosconi's autobiography.]

 

[AtLarge]

...and that day he ran 526, Willie drove a couple of hundred miles in a car after performing another exhibition that day before he reached that 2nd pool hall and ran 526 ice cold right out of the box without any warm-up or practice shots......from the car to the table to 526........that's seems inhuman ...

Matt -- you mentioned this 9 months ago, and I asked you for your source of that information, as it is not in Willie's autobiography.

You were going to look for the source.

 

[alstl]

Again, with all due respect to today's pros, if anyone claims he can brake the record but won't do it unless enough money is offered worth doing it for, that doesn't make any sense.
If anyone already feels he can do it, doing it won't hurt his overall pool activities.
And if he won't do it, what does he have to lose, besides some time getting paid for not actually doing it?...
If anyone claims he can brake this record, he should just do it, or better put his money where his mouth is, or just stop claiming anything at all, simple as that.
PS Since time frame is mentioned, Mosconi here states (at the end) he did it in about 2h and 20min.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRKw56oAA-E

He says here it was about 2h 15 min and he also says 526 wasn't his high run. He said his high run was 609.

People point to the 8' table with buckets as evidence it isn't a legitimate run. Both Mosconi and Crane ran over 300 on a 5' x 10' and if you think that is easy DCC 2 or 3 years ago used a 5' X 10' table for the 14.1 challenge and only one player for the entire challenge ran 100 balls. Today's best players, modern equipment and conditions, 300 stood up as an unreachable run.

 

[GideonF]

And, having seen most of the present day pros play and having seen Mosconi several times when he was well past his prime, I can assure you that no one today -- no one -- plays 14.1 like he did. He was a freak of nature, a savant, the 500-year-flood.

Greatest straight pool player of all time.

Lou Figueroa

Lou,

Can you expand about what it was that made Willie a freak of nature or a savant at 14.1? What did he do so much better than everyone else?

Gideon

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou,

Can you expand about what it was that made Willie a freak of nature or a savant at 14.1? What did he do so much better than everyone else?

Gideon

Gideon, here is what Mosconi did every time I saw him that no other pro I've ever watched has done: I'd watch him play and he made the game look *so easy* that I left his exhibition believing, without a doubt, deep down in my heart-of-hearts that I could walk to the nearest pool table and run 100 balls myself.

Mosconi made it look that easy.

He never had a hard shot and certainly never had to shoot any banks or circus shots to save the 100 ball run he virtually guaranteed at every exhibition. All the shots were little baby shots, with natural position for the next. For ball after ball, the cue ball barely seemed to move more than an inch this way or a couple inches thataway with the object ball always no more that a foot or two away. His breaks were all short and perfect with but with a steep angle. And then his cue ball would go into the stack as if it had is own internal propulsion system, powering into the balls, seemingly stopping and starting up again until it'd had muscled through the stack and out the other side.

Lastly, Mosconi was fast. He moved quickly but with style and grace -- like a dancer -- almost never stopping to study a shot but instead just walking up to the table and flying it in.

I've never seen anyone who did what he did, the way he did, and made me feel like I did as a pool player.

Lou Figueroa

 

[measureman]

Gideon, here is what Mosconi did every time I saw him that no other pro I've ever watched has done: I'd watch him play and he made the game look *so easy* that I left his exhibition believing, without a doubt, deep down in my heart-of-hearts that I could walk to the nearest pool table and run 100 balls myself.

Mosconi made it look that easy.

He never had a hard shot and certainly never had to shoot any banks or circus shots to save the 100 ball run he virtually guaranteed at every exhibition. All the shots were little baby shots, with natural position for the next. For ball after ball, the cue ball barely seemed to move more than an inch this way or a couple inches thataway with the object ball always no more that a foot or two away. His breaks were all short and perfect with but with a steep angle. And then his cue ball would go into the stack as if it had is own internal propulsion system, powering into the balls, seemingly stopping and starting up again until it'd had muscled through the stack and out the other side.

Lastly, Mosconi was fast. He moved quickly but with style and grace -- like a dancer -- almost never stopping to study a shot but instead just walking up to the table and flying it in.

I've never seen anyone who did what he did, the way he did, and made me feel like I did as a pool player.

Lou Figueroa

For those that never saw Willie take the above as the absolute truth.
Growing up playing pool in New Jersey in the early 60's i saw all the great players that were active at that time and since.
Lou is dead on. Nobody played the game of 14.1 like Willie did with consistency over and over. He was like a machine on cruise control.
I played him an exhibition game in 1964 and he ran 85 perfect balls.Never a shot over 18 inches and always in perfect position. And he did play at a quick pace.
He turned in a world class performance and I turned in the same as a rack boy.
Was he the best ever at 14.1? Probably, but the old timers back in the 60's would argue that Greenleaf was better. And in case you didn't know this Willie could play some 9 ball.Had he been a primarily 9 ball player we might have him in the conversation of the best 9 ball player ever.His cue ball control was the best I've ever seen and I've seen a lot in 55 years in this game.
.

 

[Dan White]

This is the AZB form of Godwin's Law in action.

As usual, Bob delivers a clever, and funny as hell, observation.

 

[Dan White]

There's been plenty of raw natural cue talent since Mosconi's day. If you really think he was that much of a freak of nature, all I can say is that many feel differently.

Just curious if you ever saw him play. Those many who feel differently would be wrong. I never did see Willie, but my father still talks about seeing his exhibitions, and he backs up everything Lou and others have said. You are left with the thought, "What's the big deal about that. It was so easy anybody could do that." Without being disrespectful of today's top 14.1 players, often when I have watched a match with my father, at some point he invariably shakes his head and says, "You know these guys play awfully well, but when you compare them to Mosconi, it isn't even close. It's a joke."

To answer Gideon's question, let's look at things from a different perspective. Here's an excerpt from Mosconi's autobiography, Willie's Game:

I'm picking up the story when Willie is 6 years old in 1919, that's 6 years old:

Uncle Charlie's studio [dance studio] consisted of a cigar store out front and a rehearsal hall in the back. In the rear corner of the rehearsal hall he had a pool table. He liked to play and he kept it there for his own amusement. When I was finished with my [dance] lesson I would play while waiting for my father to pick me up. Sometimes he was late and I got to play for an hour or more. I began practicing some of the techniques I had observed in my father's pool hall. I learned how to control the cue ball and play position, looking four or five shots ahead. I also picked up some pointers watching Uncle Charlie; he was a fairly good player. After about a month or so, I was able to run a rack. Then I learned to leave a break ball to break open the next rack. After that, it was just a question of practicing and refining my technique.

One day, Uncle Charlie saw me at the table while I was waiting for my father.

"Let's see what you can do," he said.

So I broke open the balls and ran the table. My uncle couldn't believe it.

"Let's see you do it again," he said, and I ran a second rack. Uncle Charlie was impressed. He told my father about it, but my father was still not interested. I kept practicing at the studio and Charlie encouraged me. He was the first one to see that I had a kind of talent for the game. It took a chance happening to make a believer of my father.

One day a friend of his came into the pool hall looking for a game, but the place was deserted. He asked my father to play, but he was busy checking the books and didn't want to be interrupted.

"I'll play you," I said to the man.

"Okay, young fella," he said, "let's see if we can find a cue stick that's not too heavy for you."

He broke open the balls, patted me on the head, and said, "There you go, now do your stuff."

I ran fourteen balls and left one for the break. He called my father over, and my father watched as I ran a second rack and got started on a third. Picking off the balls was easy. The hard part was getting up and down from the box and moving it around the table. My father laughed. He had no idea I could play that well. None one else believed it either until they saw me do it. It was just something that came naturally to me. No one ever taught me anything or gave me any lessons. I just watched other players and copied what they did. Running a rack of balls was nothing to me. I was wondering what all the fuss was about. But I knew better than to ask any questions.

I rest my case... and cue...

 

[KRJ]

There's been plenty of raw natural cue talent since Mosconi's day. If you really think he was that much of a freak of nature, all I can say is that many feel differently. IMO if Hendry and O'Sullivan had learned 14.1 at their father's knee, they'd be knocking out 600s on a snooker table.

Kinda silly, well, if someone would have taught so and so in Cricket, they would have hit a million home runs in American baseball.

Yes, there are a lot of freaks, but very few weeks who so dominated a sport, and with his double digit world championships, it puts him in a special category of freak.

Yeah, lots of HOF'ers have come and gone since Mosconi retired, but they really are not in the conversation as best ever... takes nothing away from them as players... not everyone can be the very best. He was the gold medal, and most others got the silver,,,, but at least they are still on the medal stand

And the real reason nobody broke the record is the same reason they have not won double digit world championships in any pool discipline..... its unbreakable.

Same reason that Hank Aaron's Home Run record will never be broken by a NON cheater.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Same reason Mosconi didn't run 11 racks of 9-ball like Earl.

 

[GideonF]

And the real reason nobody broke the record is the same reason they have not won double digit world championships in any pool discipline..... its unbreakable.

/QUOTE]

Taking nothing away from Wllie, but wasn't the format in those days that the defending champ got a bye straight to the finals? If so, that makes a huge difference to anyone ever being able to duplicate it.

Gideon

 

[pdcue]

And the real reason nobody broke the record is the same reason they have not won double digit world championships in any pool discipline..... its unbreakable.

/QUOTE]

Taking nothing away from Wllie, but wasn't the format in those days that the defending champ got a bye straight to the finals? If so, that makes a huge difference to anyone ever being able to duplicate it.

Gideon

Where in God's name did you get that idea?

Perhaps you are confusing the option of challenge matches??

There was a time when the winner of the World Championship Tournament could
be challenged to a 1-on-1 block format match where his Championship was on the
line. IIUC - the second place finisher got first shot at the title.

Dale

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

And the real reason nobody broke the record is the same reason they have not won double digit world championships in any pool discipline..... its unbreakable.

And yet others have broken it, and by a huge margin. It just wasn't done at a public exhibition complete with signed affidavits.


Transport Shane Van Boening back 80 years to when 14.1 was the championship game, let him learn the proper way to play the game from the past masters, with the proper patterns, breaks, stack reading, etc., give him until he's is his 40's to perfect his game by competing against the best that ever played - including Greenleaf, Crane, Caras, and even Mosconi himself.

Send him out on the road with a steady income doing exhibitions and let him do that for several years, then put him on an 8' table with 5 1/4" pockets with shallow shelves and slower cloth (that allows him to hold the CB the way the old timers played it in their close patterns) and see where we're at then. As it is, he already has a 305 ball run on a 9 footer at a practice session at a single event, and he doesn't really play the game at all. I'm sure he'd improve a bit under the specified conditions.

Of course, this is impossible, and so, the record will likely never be broken. The game is simply not played at the level it was played in Willie's time anymore. Willie may have been the best 14.1 player that ever lived, but that doesn't automatically make him the best cueman that ever walked the planet.

I've never seen Willie play except in the same archived footage that 99% of the AZB membership has seen, but having seen all of that, it's hard to watch Ronnie O. sashaying around a snooker table with a big smirk on his face as he alternates left and right handed stokes to run a frame of snooker like he didn't have a care in the world and not think that he is another freak of nature equal to - if not superior to - Mosconi.