Why has woofing become SO important?

[Tommy-D]

> I asked this question on the CCB too,but suspect I might get closer to the truth here so here we go. It has become apparent to me that MOST players engage in this activity,so much it's almost looking like they would rather stand around and haggle back and forth for weight,argue and participate in a pissing contest then actually getting in the box. Why is this? How hard is it for people to get a game anyway? You ask someone to play,either they say yes,no,or maybe later,no haggling or needling is necessary. If they say no,move on to someone else. If they say yes,don't stand there and try to jew the guy out of a bigger spot than you need to make it a 50/50 proposition. This is pool,not Def Comedy Jam,where two contestants have to insult each other to win,it's not buying a used car,where you try to get a better deal,or is it? It also seems that the better the players,the worse it gets. I'd rather put myself in bad action and try to outrun it than to have to resort to that kind of chicanery. It's only entertaining if you are watching it,not dodging it. If someone tries this crap on me,they get no action even if I have the best of it. It seems like a move to me. Am I wrong? Tommy D.

 

[JAM]

Stop talking and start chalking...

There is an art form to woofing. Some of the BEST players in the world have woofed their way into many an action game, and although you find this disdainful, this is the way some actions games get started. If you are fortunate enough to attend the Derby City Classic, you will most probably hear quite a bit of woofing from a variety of folks.

Woofing can work for you and against you, depending on the players. At the Glass City Open, Young Gun Dennis Hatch barked and barked and barked and barked at a very composed Italian Stallion Fabio Petroni. Finally, a friendly railbird in the stands couldn't take it anymore and stood up and announced, "I'll back Fabio for whatever he wants, Dennis. Let's get it going." When it was all said and done, reserved and poised Fabio won the cheese, and Dennis went home with his tail between his legs immediately thereafter.

Woofing has been going on since the beginning of times relating to games of stake. I think sometimes people wolf and have no intention of playing, but to some, especially among players who are dead serious about their intent to play, it's a game of cat and mouse, as one awaits for a good match-up. If it's a good woofing session, crowds draw near to hear the back-and-forth, many times bringing a few chuckles and laughter.

Some people think pool should be placed in a church-like setting, very clinical, with not one word uttered. Others think that talking would enhance the game on television and be fun, i.e., giving pool a personality.

Personally, seeing players on TV going through the motions like robots is what I think is hurting the sport currently. Many times, these players are miked with microphone packages attached to their belt. The reason for this is in hopes of picking up the players' colloquy during matches. Pool needs some excitement IMO to attract viewers AND monies from non-pool-related sponsors.

JMHO, FWIW!

JAM

 

[sjm]

I asked this question on the CCB too,but suspect I might get closer to the truth here so here we go. It has become apparent to me that MOST players engage in this activity,so much it's almost looking like they would rather stand around and haggle back and forth for weight,argue and participate in a pissing contest then actually getting in the box. Why is this? How hard is it for people to get a game anyway? You ask someone to play,either they say yes,no,or maybe later,no haggling or needling is necessary. If they say no,move on to someone else. If they say yes,don't stand there and try to jew the guy out of a bigger spot than you need to make it a 50/50 proposition... Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong .... twice.

First, I don't know what the etiquette is on CCB, but around here we show respect for each other in our posts, and use of the term "try to Jew the guy out of a bigger spot" is unacceptable here. Odds are, Tommy, you're a good guy who has just slipped this once by using insensitive language on a public forum, so I hate to give you a hard time. Forgive me.

As for the admittedly painful process of haggling and pissing contests, it's really as simple as this. A wager on a pool game is an investment. Before one commits to an investment, one tends to take every possible acton to make sure that the best investment is found. When people invest sums of money that are signifcant relative to their means, a common occurrence in the world of pool wagering, they will use every means at their disposal to maximize the quality of that investment.

These practices certainly doesn't help the dignity of our game at all, but as long as people who wager beyond their means are regularly found in poolrooms, we'll probably have to deal with it.

Yours is a nice post about how we'd both prefer things to be, but it's tough to be optimistic here.

 

[mjantti]

Sjm is right. In a turkish market, if you like your money, you'll haggle.

 

[drivermaker]

> If someone tries this crap on me,they get no action even if I have the best of it. It seems like a move to me. Am I wrong? Tommy D.

Whether you're wrong or not, you just aren't getting it. It's the essence of gambling at ANYTHING. It's part of the process. And if you don't understand it, don't accept it, and don't become proficient at it, you will in fact be a loser if you ever do go up against it with someone in the know because that is usually where the game is won or lost.

Then again you can always continue going down your route which is to not play. You can use the word "woofing", "haggling", "brow beating", or anything else that's found in a Thesaurus. But in the end, it's just "negotiating" which is at the heart of every business deal in the world whether it's on the streets of Tijuana, Juarez, Cairo, or anywhere else. Learn how to do it or you'll be the loser in the end, and as I see it, you have a long way to go. Wake up!

 

[1pRoscoe]

I know that whenever I am playing someone for some decent coin, I'm going to try to get the best odds possible. It's part of the game, as JAM so elaborately put it...

 

[sweatinNbettin]

I agree with sjm, JAM and the rest.Its like this, if you are going to go buy a car,You arent just going to accept the sticker price.You are going to try and get the best deal.That is what woofing is with just more characters and color.

 

[Worminator]

I have no problem with woofiing as long as the player(s) have an intention to play. Some players woof and woof with no intention of screwing their cue together and settling it on the table. It is those people that drive me crazy.

I was in Cinicnnati on business (now I live in the area) a few years ago and went out one evening to do some practicing. The owner of the pool hall I was playing at knew I came around from time to time on business and immediately told me that Eric Durbin and Shannon Daulton were matching up at his place that evening. Now this was around 7:00pm, and the match was to start at 9pm. Well in typical pool player time, Eric showed up around 9:45pm, and Shannon arrived around 10:30pm. They didn't talk to each other, or even acknowledge each other for that matter, for another hour. They finally started woofing at 11:30pm. After about 40 minutes of woofing Shannon left without hitting a ball. The hang up in the end was which table they were going play on. IMO, niether player had any intention to play if all they had to argue about was which table each one wanted to play on. That kind of stuff drives me crazy. Please don't get me wrong, I know both of those players are not nits and will play for the cheese. But this situation was ridiculous.

I will woof on the weight, but I want to get to that over with as soon as possible. I will then either jump up to the table, or simply decline the proposition. I think some people enjoy woofing more than playing the game.

 

[cardiac kid]

After thirty seven years in the consumer electronics business, the phrase "I understand that is your price. I am asking what is my price?" became ingrained into my being. Woofing appears to be no different. If you want the pay, you gotta play! Seasons greetings to all.

 

[JAM]

The owner of the pool hall I was playing at knew I came around from time to time on business and immediately told me that Eric Durbin and Shannon Daulton were matching up at his place that evening. Now this was around 7:00pm, and the match was to start at 9pm. Well in typical pool player time, Eric showed up around 9:45pm, and Shannon arrived around 10:30pm. They didn't talk to each other, or even acknowledge each other for that matter, for another hour. They finally started woofing at 11:30pm. After about 40 minutes of woofing Shannon left without hitting a ball. The hang up in the end was which table they were going play on....

Well, when it comes to woofing, I kind of like Shannon "The Cannon" Daulton's style, having enjoyed hearing his gift of gab on more than one occasion.

What maybe happened in the Durbin-vs.-Daulton match was one of them thought the other had the home-table advantage. The equipment being utilized is an important variable, and when two seasoned road warriors like these two hook up, they will be sure to cover all their bases. I've seen Eric Durbin agree to play, only to decline later, in the past. Shannon, on the other hand, once he utters the words of agreement, won't back down from any serious game of stakes.

One of my favorite Shannon woofing stories occurred a couple of Derby City Classics ago. A 2-hour-plus woofing session went on and on between a few stakehorses with deep pockets, Alex the Lion, Earthquake, Eric Durbin, Shannon Daulton, and a few others. I mean it went on and on and on, and as it continued, the crowd grew bigger and bigger, filling the hallway to peak capacity (LOL).

Just wanting to play pool, Shannon couldn't take it anymore and wanted to get something going. He yells out to all, "Why don't we quit wasting time here. Every player put up [3 large ones] for himself, and then we'll see, once and for all, who the BEST 9-ball player in the land is."

There was quite a long pregnant pause, when Shannon then sarcastically bellowed out, "It's so quiet in here, you could hear a field mouse peeing on a cotton ball." The whole place cracked up laughing. And the woofing then continued.

JAM

 

[Rickw]

Seems to me that the games of pool/billiards/snooker needs to find their proper niche. Is it to be a sport like golf or should it be more of a gambling endeavor like poker? There is quite a bit of physical skill involved in playing any of the aforementioned cue sports that makes it similar to golf or any of the other sports venues. There certainly are a lot of similarities to poker considering all the gambling. I think Jam and D'maker make good points about the need players have to set up the playing conditions in such a way that gives them the advantage they need to win. We can look to the United Kingdom to see one of those sports, snooker, as a very successful endeavor to both the players and all of the sponsors. Do they engage in "wolfing"? Where do you draw the line between just good old funny "wolfing" and something that goes way past the limits even in pool? I've seen some pretty nasty things occur when it just started out as "wolfing".

 

[drivermaker]

Seems to me that the games of pool/billiards/snooker needs to find their proper niche. Is it to be a sport like golf or should it be more of a gambling endeavor like poker? There is quite a bit of physical skill involved in playing any of the aforementioned cue sports that makes it similar to golf or any of the other sports venues. There certainly are a lot of similarities to poker considering all the gambling. I think Jam and D'maker make good points about the need players have to set up the playing conditions in such a way that gives them the advantage they need to win. We can look to the United Kingdom to see one of those sports, snooker, as a very successful endeavor to both the players and all of the sponsors. Do they engage in "wolfing"? Where do you draw the line between just good old funny "wolfing" and something that goes way past the limits even in pool? I've seen some pretty nasty things occur when it just started out as "wolfing".

I don't quite understand what you were trying to get across about golf Rick, but believe me, there's as much going on in the woofing stage with it at a hustlers type golf course as there is in pool. It can go on for hours before a match finally comes off, and sometimes it just doesn't. However, it can still be a setup for the next day and the next time to the strongest woofer (negotiator).

 

[OldHasBeen]

Waddyamean BECOME?

Woofing is, and always been, an important part of pool. It is one of the first important lessons to learn when going into a "Big Time Room". The first time you get woofed into a bad game, you learn to not play it - but woof back. There are many types of woofs to develop to fit the certain types of players you may want to entice into a favorable game for you. Woofing (if practiced correctly) is much like sexual foreplay. It can become an enjoyable and very effective art if done properly. As with foreplay & comedy -
TIMEING IS EVERYTHING!
TY & GL

 

[AuntyDan]

You have to be VERY careful (and mad at your money) before standing up and announcing that you will 'back a player'.

Exactly. As soon as I read "I'll back Fabio for whatever he wants, Dennis.Let's get it going." the first thought into my head was "Two brothers and a Stranger". If you have read the book of "The Color Of Money" you will find a scene almost exactly like this. (In the movie the same hustle is used in 2 slightly different scenarios.) Of course if Dennis was genuinely backing himself with his own money this is not the case, but can you ever really know that for sure?

I have to disagree with JAM on the question of whether the "colorful" characters in (mostly) US Pool are a benefit to the sport or not. Perhaps it is a result of growing up in the UK and being raised watching (publicly) polite and respectful professional Snooker players, but I would rather watch a battle of cue skills when I see a pro pool tournament than a battle of egos and verbal abuse intended purely to make money for a group of shadowy interested parties in the background. We have quite enough elected politicians for that.

 

[lunchmoney]

I find Woofing done by professionals very entertaining. I had the pleasure of listening to Bucktooth and Scott Frost go at it a couple of years ago in Reno. It went on for about a half hour. No game ever took place but my sides were aching when it was over as were everyone else's in the large crowd that had assembled.

Lunchmoney

 

[jrhendy]

Woofing

Tommy, I think I can remember you woofing a time or two & you know I never could keep my mouth shut. Some of it is funny and some of it is insulting, but it has always been around and as long as we are betting, will still be there. I can remember Detroit Whitey and Bud Buhl putting on a show at the Wonder Bowl in Anaheim that would rival any comedy act around today. Of course they were dumping anybody that would bet too much, but it was funny. I remember Ritchie Florence playing Ed Kelly in a 9-ball tournament saying "Champagne Ed Kelley, you will be Budwiser Kelley when I get through with you". Kelley beat him 11 to one or two. Ronnie Allen's favorite line to the East Coast players was " I never saw a you'se that could beat a y'all in one pocket. When the woofing goes overboard, it's just a couple of guys who really don't want to play anyway, and the loudest woofers are the ones who just went busted. I woof a lot better than I play anymore and it usually costs me a little something when I match up. John Henderson

 

[OldHasBeen]

AuntyDan - Wake Up & Smell The Poolroom.

You say Woofing is - purely to make money for a group of shadowy interested parties in the background.
Without these shadowy parties in the background - what’s left?
As Grady and a lot of big$ people are starting to realize - That is the most marketable product that our game has to offer. "THE COLOR".
The upscale yuppies & business people that are attracted to our game are coming to see, feel & hear the excitement and allure that the old backroom poolrooms had to offer. They want to experience the underworld subculture that they have imagined for so long. They want to see the "Shady" characters lurking in the corners and the flashy playing hustlers pouncing on their prey. Do you really think that the average TV audience would watch (or even remotely comprehend) what is going on when watching a player run 3 racks of 9 ball? Obviously not, or it would be as popular and lucrative as golf or even bowling.
The main attraction for the general public is what you call - Everything that is wrong with our game.
These beliefs are not from my internal wisdom but from the feedback I am getting from the sales of the St. Louie, Louie & OHB Poster. That is why they want to hang it in their rathskellers, sports-bars and poolrooms.
Pool has not ever been successfully SOLD to the public. In any business, you must take an inventory of your liabilities & assets when times get tough. Get rid of what’s not working & properly market what is.
If this is what they want - Lets give it to them with both barrels!
TY & GL

 

[Rickw]

If woofing goes on in golf then I stand corrected. I don't know that much about golf but what I've seen on TV doesn't represent much what we're talking about. Maybe all that woofing is done in the locker room? Seems to me that a while back Fuzzy Zoeller (SP) said something about Tiger that was tame compared to pool hall woofing and he got his tit in a real big wringer over it. The only thing I hear on TV when a golf game is on is a couple of guys whispering back and forth.

I don't quite understand what you were trying to get across about golf Rick, but believe me, there's as much going on in the woofing stage with it at a hustlers type golf course as there is in pool. It can go on for hours before a match finally comes off, and sometimes it just doesn't. However, it can still be a setup for the next day and the next time to the strongest woofer (negotiator).

 

[drivermaker]

If woofing goes on in golf then I stand corrected. I don't know that much about golf but what I've seen on TV doesn't represent much what we're talking about. Maybe all that woofing is done in the locker room? Seems to me that a while back Fuzzy Zoeller (SP) said something about Tiger that was tame compared to pool hall woofing and he got his tit in a real big wringer over it. The only thing I hear on TV when a golf game is on is a couple of guys whispering back and forth.

The woofing part doesn't occur at all during tournament play in golf among the top pro's. You can get some woofing on practice days when the one's that play for money get together for a match. The newer breed of college golfers that are in the pro ranks very rarely even play for money on practice rounds, although a couple of them will. The biggest woofing goes on at golf courses across the country every day among regulars at public courses and even members at private courses. Ray Floyd, Lee Trevino, Chi Chi Rodriguez, and many of the senior tour golfers made their way up through the on course gambling ranks into the pro's. It's every bit the same woof that goes on in the pool room. Weenie Beanie used to go from the golf course during the day to the pool room at night when he was younger and lived in DC. I saw it and was a part of it.

 

[Rickw]

D'maker,

Thanks for the info and hx lesson on golf. I don't like golf at all. Tried it a couple of times and it's just too boring for me. Too much time just walking to the next shot. I love pool! I want pool to become as big as golf because I want to see it flourish. It's a great great game and deserves to be in the limelight instead of the back-rooms. Can you imagine how great the game or the players would be if there was as much money to be made playing it as there is in golf?