Why is standing up on a shot so prevalent?

JarnoV

JarnoV

JarnoV
Silver Member
Watching the World Cup of Pool, it's amazing how often these world-class professionals stand up on a shot. They don't stand up on shots all the time, of course, but I feel like these are the players who should never do it. Yet, I've seen matches where some of the players stand up on some shot in every other frame.

So I began wondering what's the reason for this. Has anyone got a good theory of why this happens? It obviously seems to be related to nervousness and pressure, but I wonder what is it exactly that triggers the behavior. And how on earth can be it be so difficult to get rid off that even professionals can have trouble with it?

For what it's worth, during a competition, I don't think the solution is to try to not to think about it, because this interferes with the concentration too much. That said, I don't know a good solution for the problem during a competition. During practice you can try to fix it. But during a real match, trying to fix the problem might not be that beneficial overall.
 
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I think it's a reaction to being nervous. When most people are nervous, they want to get whatever it is they are nervous with over quickly. This is also why so many amateurs seem to rush their shots in competition IMO.
 
JarnoV said:
Watching the World Cup of Pool, it's amazing how often these world-class professionals stand up on a shot. They don't stand up on shots all the time, of course, but I feel like these are the players who should never do it. Yet, I've seen matches where some of the players stand up on some shot in every other frame.

So I began wondering what's the reason for this. Has anyone got a good theory of why this happens? It obviously seems to be related to nervousness and pressure, but I wonder what is it exactly that triggers the behavior. And how on earth can be it be so difficult to get rid off that even professionals can have trouble with it?

For what it's worth, during a competition, I don't think the solution is to try to not to think about it, because this interferes with the concentration too much. That said, I don't know a good solution for the problem during a competition. During practice you can try to fix it. But during a real match, trying to fix the problem might not be that beneficial overall.
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lot's of players have battled this problem. Buddy at one time went through hell with this. Loie went through a battle with it as well. Surfer Rod was half around the table before completing the shot.
I try and remember what the wise old Andy Hudson said to me once. Sty down and watch the ball hit the pocket. Follow through with your eyes. This registered with me. It helped when playing for the larger stakes.
 
Well, I struggled with the same in the past and as I am rather methodical than "feeling" player I just tried to find any connection between the players doing it, to find any pattern to this. And I came to this: almost every time a player "stands" on a shot it is during out-of-comfort-zone shot. Anxiety and fear. But thats not all. I studied the eye movement pattern of those players and guess what? Every single one of those playes watched the object ball trajectory - they just wanted to know if the ball would be potted or not AND STOOD UP to see better! So I came to this conclusion: if I dont watch the trajectory of the OB I wouldnt have any reason to stand up on the shot! So during any shot I watch only the point where I am sending the cueball and watch that spot even 1 second after the shot to be sure not to stand up on the shot. I adviced this maybe to 10 people doing "stand-up" act regularly and they stopped doing it immediatelly! So probably there is something to this theory of mine.. :)
 
marek said:
I studied the eye movement pattern of those players and guess what? Every single one of those playes watched the object ball trajectory - they just wanted to know if the ball would be potted or not AND STOOD UP to see better! So I came to this conclusion: if I dont watch the trajectory of the OB I wouldnt have any reason to stand up on the shot!
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That makes perfect sense to me, because it seems that when you're in "dead stroke" or just generally feeling good about your game, you know that you're going to make the shot well before executing it. You line up and during the preshot routine, you have that nice confidence in you and you just know that you're going to make it. (Of course, sometimes you still don't make it, but that's not too relevant here.) No need to make sure with your eyes that the ball is going the right way, because you can feel it in your body.
 
I think it is the easiest mistake to make. Think about it, no matter how comfortable you are in your stance, it is an un natural position, and natural to stand up if your not constantly aware of keeping down. Nerves definetly play a role as well, as I can atest some of my most basic fundamentals have been out the door in pressure situations. Not always, but it can get to you.
 
I personally think it is caused by fatigue. I know it's that way, in my case.

Most of these players are playing in different time zones than they are accustomed too. I know I have had trouble sleeping when I've traveled.

These factors plus the fact that they are playing in such a huge event has to be affecting their sleep. If there not sleeping well anything can happen on any given shot.

Just my opinion.

___________________________________

http://tommcgonaglerightoncue.com
 
"Staying Down" is on the list of fundamentals and should be ingrained from the outset. It can be an anxiety reaction to see if the ball is in the pocket, it is a bad habit that needs to be unlearned.
 
What a timely post--last week, my wife pointed out that I'd started to do this. Since I've been paying attention to it, I've realized that there are two situations where I do it most often. The first is when I'm playing long-distance shape and want to see the trajectory better. The other is when banking. My bank game has always been pretty poor, and considering that I live in the bank capitol of the world now, I've decided I better work on my game so I don't get laughed out of the pool room! I think I bank better in a more upright position than I usually use...it helps me see the geometry better. Before, I'd start out in my normal stance, and then raise up to watch things. Now I just stand more upright when banking.
 
ironman said:
lot's of players have battled this problem. Buddy at one time went through hell with this. Loie went through a battle with it as well. Surfer Rod was half around the table before completing the shot.
I try and remember what the wise old Andy Hudson said to me once. Sty down and watch the ball hit the pocket. Follow through with your eyes. This registered with me. It helped when playing for the larger stakes.
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in addition to the FACTS above I remember on the slow cloth Keith running over to where he needed to be for the next shot before the CBever got there, on some 3,4,5 rail around the world type shots, keith showed up well in advance of the CB stopping perfectly for him where he stood. Saw Kim do this a few times but no one much as keith. The slower the cloth the sooner Keith could be there-it was cool to watch.


Shannon jumps up on every shot, but if you pay careful attention he has hit the CB and went through the ball before standing up, or jumping up, he has executed the shot correctly/perfectrly for that matter. But you have to watch carefully its easy to mistake him for jumping out of a shot(which he rarely does). Still makes me nervious when I'm betting on him and he pulls that. It just his style....and he has it mastered.
 
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Sometimes I do this because I'm afraid the cue ball or other object balls will come back and hit my cue for a foul. Usually though, it's because I want to see if I hit the shot right for lack of confidence! :p
 
I started playing pool when I was about 10-11 years old(I dont count those years as me being a player) i jumped out of every shot so high I have a flat head as a result, I never did have any instruction and did know better. For that reason alone I firmly believe I trained in so many bad habits into my game that I'm much less of a player today than if I started out the on the right path.

When I started going to a pool room when I was 18(my first time in life I had a pool room avaliable to play in-1985) I learned real fast how bad jumping up is, and its been a battle ever since. My back problems havent helped either. When I havent been playing Its very clear I'm out of stroke because I jump up often, when I have been playing I do stay down better.

The past 3 months I have been playing horrible and in that thread last week my body was raised up 1"-1.5", some of that could have been due to the fact I looked over to the photographer and asked for a second shot, or I did raise up or a little of both. I was playing better then than now.



I made a long post to share my long term experience over 30 years and also to put a good word in for new people to the game-Go find a qualified instructor and dont learn all the bad habits like I did, you lose so much time, and I believe that what you do in pool between 14-18 years old has more impact on your game than any other 4 year period no matter how hard you practice. I'm real handy with firearms(Ilearned all that from 12-18yrs old) I dont need to practice shooting agun to be dead on, its just like that in pool some players who can go for months and dont really fall out of stroke-mark tadd is a perfect example.


get a instructor!!!!


best
eric:)
 
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Fatboy said:
in addition to the FACTS above I remember on the slow cloth Keith running over to where he needed to be for the next shot before the CBever got there, on some 3,4,5 rail around the world type shots, keith showed up well in advance of the CB stopping perfectly for him where he stood. Saw Kim do this a few times but no one much as keith. The slower the cloth the sooner Keith could be there-it was cool to watch.


Shannon jumps up on every shot, but if you pay careful attention he has hit the CB and went through the ball before standing up, or jumping up, he has executed the shot correctly/perfectrly for that matter. But you have to watch carefully its easy to mistake him for jumping out of a shot(which he rarely does). Still makes me nervious when I'm betting on him and he pulls that. It just his style....and he has it mastered.
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"Shannon jumps up on every shot, but if you pay careful attention he has hit the CB and went through the ball before standing up, or jumping up, he has executed the shot correctly/perfectrly for that matter. But you have to watch carefully its easy to mistake him for jumping out of a shot(which he rarely does). Still makes me nervious when I'm betting on him and he pulls that. It just his style....and he has it mastered.[/QUOTE"

And if you had a slow motion camera on the player that the anouncer said was lifting his/her head too soon you would find that most of them went through the ball first. Pros don't become pros by lifting their head too early. Unless I have to get out of the way quickly after a shot I stay down until the OB drops...or not drop. Johnnyt far from pro. Johnnyt
 
Fatboy said:
Shannon jumps up on every shot, but if you pay careful attention he has hit the CB and went through the ball before standing up, or jumping up, he has executed the shot correctly/perfectrly for that matter. But you have to watch carefully its easy to mistake him for jumping out of a shot(which he rarely does). Still makes me nervious when I'm betting on him and he pulls that. It just his style....and he has it mastered.
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Shannon's herky-jerky style is beautiful to watch when he's "on". I remember the finals of the 1998 Legends of One Pocket tourney, where he played Buddy Hall in the finals. Shannon was shooting his game ball to win the set...cue ball was hanging in the jowls of the bottom corner pocket opposite Shannon's hole, 1 ball was near the spot. Shannon fired it in at 100mph while drawing the CB to the side rail, and jumped up so high, I can't believe he didn't smack his head on the ceiling.

It's something that no instructor would ever teach, but some of the best players ever have done extremely well with less than ideal mechanics.

Other players that have a pronounced "jump" include Mike Sigel, Bustamante, and most especially, the great Efren Reyes. Apparently it hasn't affected their games too badly.
 
the420trooper said:
Shannon's herky-jerky style is beautiful to watch when he's "on". I remember the finals of the 1998 Legends of One Pocket tourney, where he played Buddy Hall in the finals. Shannon was shooting his game ball to win the set...cue ball was hanging in the jowls of the bottom corner pocket opposite Shannon's hole, 1 ball was near the spot. Shannon fired it in at 100mph while drawing the CB to the side rail, and jumped up so high, I can't believe he didn't smack his head on the ceiling.

It's something that no instructor would ever teach, but some of the best players ever have done extremely well with less than ideal mechanics.

Other players that have a pronounced "jump" include Mike Sigel, Bustamante, and most especially, the great Efren Reyes. Apparently it hasn't affected their games too badly.
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hey man hope u been good,


i love shannons style, he is fun to play with too. We had a social game and he was my partner until my back went off the air bad(I was beyond pissed) man is he funny. There was one ball left on the table playing one hole in the partners game and shannon says "We both need one real bad"-with his voice and the way he said it we all busted up laughing, It was a cheap game and very social. That would have been a great feed the level of 1P we played was good, I was by far the weakest player in the game but with shannon coaching me it made for a great game, I'm certain people would have enjoyed it. I was the only player in the game that didnt have the red neck accent, LOL. All the southern boys and my california ass. I would have been the worst part of the video(we should have taped it) It was great.


best
eric
 
Recently I was playing a guy and stood up on a shot and I missed it. He said you didn't stay down on that shot. I said, yes, because I could see as soon as I hit it that I missed it, and stood up in disgust with myself. So in this case, standing up had nothing to do with missing the shot.
 
I think that we stand up on a shot when we are anxious (unsure). We want to see the OB go into the pocket and the CB get the desired position. It is natural to want to get a “better” view and it came with our early training.

I doubt that it is cured by saying “don’t” or any other negatively worded statement. We need to use positively worded statements, thoughts or behaviors to naturally rid ourselves of this regressive behavior.

I taught myself to “see the CB hit the OB” before moving any part of my body. This works extremely well for me. However, I have found that I usually miss seeing some part of the shot and have learned to listen for the OB to hit the pocket. If is smacks the back of the pocket I am centered. Other sounds tell me I hit the lining, etc.

Regressive behavior is prior behavior that was sometimes useful or behavior that was associated with a prior useful behavior. Looking up is a form of regression for those who have learned to stay down on a shot. Here is an example.

A person learns to hit others to get their own way. First they raise their fist and threaten; next they strike if the threat was not successful.

Later, the child is punished for hitting and they learn to “talk” things through. Talking is by-and-large, more successful and it usually gets them what they want.

However in tough situations where they can not get their way they tend to regress and raise their hand to others during an argument. If they get very emotional they may regress to older, not quite so successful ways and strike the other person..

When our current approaches to problem solving are not working as they should and we are emotionally involved, we regress to prior ways. And that is why we stand up on a shot.

Ever notice that some people, Perhaps Shannon Dalton is a good example of a person who retains older ways and tacks on newer (more successful) behaviors. Thus he often stands up – after the shot – as a hold over from his early learning.

I am sure there are other opinions.


So what do we do about it?

Well, first understand that it is the association of unwanted behavior with a negative emotion. The trick is to have a better (more successful) behavior associated with that emotion.

So, the player needs to learn to stay down on the shot AND to associate staying down with anxiety, being unsure, when you lose your stroke, or how ever one wants to put it.

Many people learn to stay down. They do not take the time to associate staying down with positive and with negative emotions. I think that when you associate staying down with feeling unsure the problem will go away.
 
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Of course it is best not to get emotionally upset. But life does not often deal those cards. And if it did we probably would find the activity boring. So we have to anticipate good and bad emotions while playing and then learn to work with both in our subconscious training.

This requires a lot of training and is probably what seperates the pros from the rest of us during the execution of a shot. However, I suspect that most of the pros did not have training in psychology and stumbled on this type of solution over many years (the million ball theory). Now that you have the knowledge, you can change your behavior more easily, probably only 500,00 balls :rolleyes:
 
Standing up

I stand up after hitting a shot, but I am so short they can't tell .... LOL

No, seriously, JoeW explained it pretty well.

Sometimes I feel anxious, sometimes I don't. I notice when I haven't shot for some time, and then enter a tournament, that I get a little anxious.
 
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