Why Is There Such A Stigma Concerning Adam / Helmstetter Point Blanks And Cues

[TATE]

When you say quality, what do you look for?

p/s- Chris, I send you a PM, Pls reply. tks

In most cases, it's just appearances, really. These days, we have come to expect perfect appearances because the machinery is much more accurate than it was 40 years ago. In the old days, the cue maker had to sort through a pile of Titlists to find decent ones to use.

Adam blanks use a true splice joint like Titlists and Spain's. Cue maker's tell me it's tougher to build a forearm accurately with a spliced joint (as opposed to a milled pocket or an inlaid point, the more common techniques used now) . The length of the points can be messed up in the making of the blank or the turning of it, so sometimes it's hard to tell if the forearm was made improperly or turned improperly by the cue maker. If a cue maker can get the outside points to line up evenly, there's no guarantee the inner prongs will. The veneers have to be mitered and glued up. Care must be taken in this process.

There are a lot of small things the blank maker does to improve their overall quality. I think the first thing they should do is to scrap blanks that are not good enough quality, for example if they see the points are off too much, or the veneers have a big gap in their miter. It's small things, like the miters, consistency of the veneer thickness and colors, that make a forearm look good or look flawed. A well built blank should allow everything to line up properly, outside points and inner prongs, if the lathe is properly centered.

Chris

 

[TATE]

Fred has pointed out that Pete made his own and didn't use the Adam blanks:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=104658

 

[icem3n]

In most cases, it's just appearances, really. These days, we have come to expect perfect appearances because the machinery is much more accurate than it was 40 years ago. In the old days, the cue maker had to sort through a pile of Titlists to find decent ones to use.

Adam blanks use a true splice joint like Titlists and Spain's. Cue maker's tell me it's tougher to build a forearm accurately with a spliced joint (as opposed to a milled pocket or an inlaid point, the more common techniques used now) . The length of the points can be messed up in the making of the blank or the turning of it, so sometimes it's hard to tell if the forearm was made improperly or turned improperly by the cue maker. If a cue maker can get the outside points to line up evenly, there's no guarantee the inner prongs will. The veneers have to be mitered and glued up. Care must be taken in this process.

There are a lot of small things the blank maker does to improve their overall quality. I think the first thing they should do is to scrap blanks that are not good enough quality, for example if they see the points are off too much, or the veneers have a big gap in their miter. It's small things, like the miters, consistency of the veneer thickness and colors, that make a forearm look good or look flawed. A well built blank should allow everything to line up properly, outside points and inner prongs, if the lathe is properly centered.

Chris

Chris Tks, something gained.

 

[ribdoner]

Based on imitation being one of the sincerest forms of flattery it's obvious other cue makers thought highly of HELMSTETTLER/ADAMS blanks.

 

[cueman]

Early Japanese blanks were not that good. I remember a few of the ones we had in the Palmers, and Brunswicks were just plain cheezy and of low quality. I remember seeing a black, maple, black, maple blank that was made over seas on a few Palmers and none looked close to the quality the same blank by Gus was. Also the black, orange, blue and natural combinations commonly seen in Palmers and Brunswicks were also of low quality. These may or may not have been Adam blanks, I don't know of anyone I would trust in verifying this.

Chris, can you show me a Meucci blanked Bushka?

JV

Can you show me a Wico blanked Bushka? I have heard them referred to, but I am no expert on Bushkas like yourself, but have talked to Bob myself about his blank making venture.

 

[manwon]

Thanks to everyone who has posted, I have for years believed that do to the fact that Adam's / Helmstetter cues were made in Japan that the over all value and collect-ability was hurt. I find it very interesting that there are many similarities between Adam / Helmstetter, Palmer Custom Cues and Burton Spain concerning construction of their Blanks.

Has anyone ever done a comparison of the splicing techniques used by the three companies listed above? I have done a little research and this is what I have found:

Davis Blanks - Burton's technique



Palmer Blanks or Paradice blanks, uncertain which they are.



Adam Blanks





Burton's Adams catalog



Does anyone know if Richard Helmstetter and Burton Spain worked together on point blank construction? Burton in two of his books talks about his respect and friendship with Richard Helmstetter. In fact Burton sold Adam / Helmstetter cues along with his, and I have some catalogs that Burton had made with photo's of the models he handled.

Any information would be appreciated

 

[manwon]

Here is additional photo's of price lists and catalogs:







Thanks

 

[ELBeau]

I love reading the info you dig up on full splice cues, Craig!

 

[manwon]

I love reading the info you dig up on full splice cues, Craig!

I also love to dig it up. I never get tired of doing research on what I love, and I have no problem sharing what I know with others who find it interesting. I hope some of the other more knowledgeable posters join in and add something else that I can put in my data base.

Thanks very much

 

[classiccues]

Can you show me a Wico blanked Bushka? I have heard them referred to, but I am no expert on Bushkas like yourself, but have talked to Bob myself about his blank making venture.

No, thats why I am asking if you can show me one. I thought I heard all the WICO point stories, guess I haven't. So I haven't seen a WICO point Bushka OR a Paradise made forearm. IMHO maybe he bought one or two to see if they were quality he would use and maybe they weren't, so you won't see one.

The other thing.. I think this is a point that wouldn't have been overlooked during the research of the Blue Books and the Encyclopedia.

JV

 

[TATE]

No, thats why I am asking if you can show me one. I thought I heard all the WICO point stories, guess I haven't. So I haven't seen a WICO point Bushka OR a Paradise made forearm. IMHO maybe he bought one or two to see if they were quality he would use and maybe they weren't, so you won't see one.

The other thing.. I think this is a point that wouldn't have been overlooked during the research of the Blue Books and the Encyclopedia.

JV

The WICO story is interesting. I know you know what they are, but I'll explain to those who don't. They are a forearm that uses milled pockets with vinyl "L" shaped angle instead of veneers. The molded vinyl is stacked and glued up in the pocket, so there are no miters.

Palmer did not actually buy their "WICO" blanks from WICO, but they were made for them by Bob Meucci when he went off on his own. They bought a few hundred 4 point forearms - the date is hard to determine. I think late 1960's, Peter thinks early 1970's. The cues I seen have the 1960's parts.

Palmer was hurting for ebony pointed blanks, so they were willing to try anything. Ebony Titlists were no longer available and the conversion cues had dried up. They didn't want to make their own because it was time consuming and messy. Spain was an unreliable source. They bought the forearms from Meucci, but Peter was concerned that the vinyl would come apart over the years and it made him nervous enough to abandon the idea.

I heard from another source that Bob stopped making them to go into his own BMC/ Meucci cue business, so he showed Viking how to make their own.

Chris

 

[classiccues]

Well here goes the neighborhood...

I will go on record as to the following...

Dates get very twisted... the longer a person is from that date, the less likely I am to believe that person, or better yet trust his accuracy in recalling the particulars to any event. I have been privy to the contents on the tapes made for the BB and the Encyclopedia when they were doing their primary research, around the late 80's and early 90's. We are talking 20 years prior to now. So now you have another 20 years that have gone by since that time. Trust me, what I have recently read, vs what I have heard is very different.

IMHO the past regarding cues and who did what is going to become more mucked, and less clear as time goes by. People who have been overlooked are going to write themselves in. This is my opinion and I will stick to it until or unless someone shows written conformation, ie receipts, orders etc..

Now I can tell you that I have seen blanks from Karl Mayer, that were very similar to the early Palmer blanks that were black, red, green and natural. I was told he made them, did he make them for Palmer (maybe when working there), buy them from Palmer, or get them from the same place? IMHO the lineage to cue parts and their origins is getting sloppily misconstrued.

So unless I see stuff like this...
Burton Spain 1967

I am very much taking it with a grain of salt...

JV

 

[TATE]

Well here goes the neighborhood...

I will go on record as to the following...

Dates get very twisted... the longer a person is from that date, the less likely I am to believe that person, or better yet trust his accuracy in recalling the particulars to any event. I have been privy to the contents on the tapes made for the BB and the Encyclopedia when they were doing their primary research, around the late 80's and early 90's. We are talking 20 years prior to now. So now you have another 20 years that have gone by since that time. Trust me, what I have recently read, vs what I have heard is very different.

IMHO the past regarding cues and who did what is going to become more mucked, and less clear as time goes by. People who have been overlooked are going to write themselves in. This is my opinion and I will stick to it until or unless someone shows written conformation, ie receipts, orders etc..

Now I can tell you that I have seen blanks from Karl Mayer, that were very similar to the early Palmer blanks that were black, red, green and natural. I was told he made them, did he make them for Palmer (maybe when working there), buy them from Palmer, or get them from the same place? IMHO the lineage to cue parts and their origins is getting sloppily misconstrued.

So unless I see stuff like this...
Burton Spain 1967

I am very much taking it with a grain of salt...

JV

Karl snooped around Palmer's shop for a few months then left to become his own cue maker. The Palmer folks didn't have much regard for him. Many cue makers worked for Palmer over the years, including Saul Rich. There is no question the techniques Palmer used were duplicated elsewhere.

Receipts and records are hard to come by, but I agree, when they can be found, they are important to the collector. Here are some of the receipts I picked up for the Szamboti blanks Palmer used and other services Gus provided.


http://www.palmercollector.com/GusSzambotiandPalmer.html

Chris

 

[classiccues]

Receipts and records are hard to come by, but I agree, when they can be found, they are important to the collector. Here are some of the receipts I picked up for the Szamboti blanks Palmer used and other services Gus provided.


http://www.palmercollector.com/GusSzambotiandPalmer.html

Chris

Records to me are more important to the hobby / industry as a whole. Collectors just need to be confident in that information to which they place a great deal of trust, as well as money. IMHO the accuracy of the record is the most important aspect of this hobby, anything less than that in unacceptable as it causes grief, anxiety, bad blood and lack of participation from collectors.

I do not foresee other collectors getting into older cues when the basis of their stature is rumors, and guesses. Paradises and Palmers are already undervalued IMHO and without concrete information it will continue to draw questions, instead of gain the respect and confidence of collectors world wide.

JV

 

[cueman]

No, thats why I am asking if you can show me one. I thought I heard all the WICO point stories, guess I haven't. So I haven't seen a WICO point Bushka OR a Paradise made forearm. IMHO maybe he bought one or two to see if they were quality he would use and maybe they weren't, so you won't see one.

The other thing.. I think this is a point that wouldn't have been overlooked during the research of the Blue Books and the Encyclopedia.

JV

This has me wondering what Bob's blanks looked like and if it is possible Burton is getting credit for some blanks Bob made. Bob made some seemless veneer blanks on a challenge from Burton that it could not be done prefectly without any bubbles, but he also made some wood veneered blanks also.

 

[cueman]

Thanks to everyone who has posted, I have for years believed that do to the fact that Adam's / Helmstetter cues were made in Japan that the over all value and collect-ability was hurt. I find it very interesting that there are many similarities between Adam / Helmstetter, Palmer Custom Cues and Burton Spain concerning construction of their Blanks.

Has anyone ever done a comparison of the splicing techniques used by the three companies listed above? I have done a little research and this is what I have found:

Davis Blanks - Burton's technique

View attachment 71168

Palmer Blanks or Paradice blanks, uncertain which they are.

View attachment 71169

Adam Blanks

View attachment 71170

View attachment 71171

Burton's Adams catalog

View attachment 71172

Does anyone know if Richard Helmstetter and Burton Spain worked together on point blank construction? Burton in two of his books talks about his respect and friendship with Richard Helmstetter. In fact Burton sold Adam / Helmstetter cues along with his, and I have some catalogs that Burton had made with photo's of the models he handled.

Any information would be appreciated

I would like to address the above blanks from what I have seen myself. I also will clarify that this is based on my limited knowledge as I have not seen evey blank ever made. The top picture as far as I can tell is John Davis own splice method. I never bought a Spain blank made that way. Spain blanks that I bought were spliced like your Adam blanks with the single butterfly with the full splice points going over that splice. He also made some that did not have the butterfly. The butterfly was to get the weight down so he could use maple in the handle. I did not know until you posted the pictures that Adam also used that same exact type of splice.

 

[manwon]

I would like to address the above blanks from what I have seen myself. I also will clarify that this is based on my limited knowledge as I have not seen evey blank ever made. The top picture as far as I can tell is John Davis own splice method. I never bought a Spain blank made that way. Spain blanks that I bought were spliced like your Adam blanks with the single butterfly with the full splice points going over that splice. He also made some that did not have the butterfly. The butterfly was to get the weight down so he could use maple in the handle. I did not know until you posted the pictures that Adam also used that same exact type of splice.

Thanks for the information Chris, this is subject I am trying to tie the loose ends up on. John Davis did however learn the technique pictured from Burton Spain, while I am certain that he changed it some over the years which is normal. In addition Joel Hercek, Palmer cues from the 60's and 70's, along with Paradice cues with the same technique used in the Adams cues. Now it is possible that all the blanks in question were blanks made by Burton Spain, but there are too many gaps to say for certain. However, since the Adam Blanks were made Japan, I doubt those are Spain blanks. Most of the information I have obtained has been through doing cue repairs and refinish work. I also collect billiards related items, especially anything that concerns cue making, IE old catalogs, receipts, books and anything else that will give clues to some of this information.

If you ever come across anything that pertains to this please let me know.

Thanks Craig

 

[classiccues]

This has me wondering what Bob's blanks looked like and if it is possible Burton is getting credit for some blanks Bob made. Bob made some seemless veneer blanks on a challenge from Burton that it could not be done prefectly without any bubbles, but he also made some wood veneered blanks also.

Well here lies a problem. We know Bushka bought blanks from Spain, Davis and Boti because we have proof. We have no proof of the above statement. If you can distinguish Spain from Gus there is no reason to assume that you couldn't pick out a Bob Meucci. Think about it.. are you going to say before starting Meucci cues Bob built better blanks than what he did for himself. Because having seen a plethora of first catalog Meucci cues there is NOT ONE I would confuse with a Spain.

JV

 

[TATE]

Thanks for the information Chris, this is subject I am trying to tie the loose ends up on. John Davis did however learn the technique pictured from Burton Spain, while I am certain that he changed it some over the years which is normal. In addition Joel Hercek, Palmer cues from the 60's and 70's, along with Paradise cues with the same technique used in the Adams cues. Now it is possible that all the blanks in question were blanks made by Burton Spain, but there are too many gaps to say for certain. However, since the Adam Blanks were made Japan, I doubt those are Spain blanks. Most of the information I have obtained has been through doing cue repairs and refinish work. I also collect billiards related items, especially anything that concerns cue making, IE old catalogs, receipts, books and anything else that will give clues to some of this information.

If you ever come across anything that pertains to this please let me know.

Thanks Craig

From what I can tell, Palmer was the first to use the "V" splice, which they did in the mid 1960's. Joel told me Burton didn't use it until the early 1990's. If the Adam is original, then I believe they copied the Palmer technique (not derogatory, just used the same joint). The only Adam I've seen with it is the one you repaired that time. Since Palmer sold and did repairs on Adam cues in the 1970's, they may have replaced the handle on a few too using the V splice.

Joel uses the technique Burton taught him and John Davis invented his own "W" splice so that he would not mimic the technique used by Joel.

Chris

PS. Palmer gave up the "V" splice in favor of a tenon and screw joint because they weren't confident the "V" would hold up over time. However, they did hold up fine from what I can tell. With today's epoxies, I believe the joint is very strong.

 

[hangemhigh]

Has anybody ever managed to get Mr. Davis to add his perspective on this subject? This is some of the best reading I have done since I read Mr. Spain's Making blanks. Please continue.