Why Is There Such A Stigma Concerning Adam / Helmstetter Point Blanks And Cues

Chris,

Joe's right about this "cuemuseum" guy = bad ju ju......I sincerely hope this is not the source you all are giving any credence.

With repsect to this information, this is precisely why it's of such vital importance to correctly document all of this history. With the passage of time, peoples' memories continue to get fuzzy and then one day those people aren't around to confirm anything.

Intriquing stuff...that's for sure. But I wholeheartedly believe that Paradise made many cues from Spain blanks, as well as the Titlists which we've all seen. That's just from me seeing the cues and my perspective on what they are. Were there some that were not Spains....probably....but imho there's no way they are all categorically not.

Am going to revisit Burton's book today myself (this was not edited any prior to print was it?).

Sean
 
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Bob Meucci according to Spain in his book in regards to Wicco blanks.. "after a while he gave up on it"...

Spain mention Gordon Hart still making vinyl veneer cues at that time.

FYI...

JV
 
You left out

manwon said:
Hello AZ, I have been assembling information and researching cues and cue makers for many years as an enthusiast. I personally love the art of cue making, so I study the history of this art as a past time. I would like to start a discussion on the Adam / Helmstetter cue company. There appears to me to be a stigma when it comes to this company, and I really do not understand it.

Most people are aware that the Adam / Helmstetter cue company was a collaboration between Richard Helmstetter and David Forman. Most are also aware that Richard Helmstetter was the driving force behind this collaboration. Recently in another thread, the possibility of Helmstteter blanks being used by Pete Tascarrela was brought out. This was not well received throughout this forum by many members. It is a well known fact that many of the great cue makers used blanks made by Burton Spain, Gus Szamboti, and many also used the Full Splice Titlist Blanks made by Brunswick. This appears to be desirable, however the mention of Adam / Helmstetter blanks are met with negative over tones and in some cases disdain.

I do not really understand this, while everyone gives credit to Burton Spain, and Gus Szamboti as a innovators concerning point blank construction, no one appears to give Richard Helmstetter the credit he so greatly deserves. The point blanks that were produced by the Adam cue company were absolutely equal to any blanks produced by anyone during this time frame and even today. Even the Palmer Custom cue company made a transition from Custom Cue maker, in the late 1970's and Palmer went to Adam / Helmstetter for production of the PM and PB Lines, which were produced through the 1980's.

In my opinion, the point blank construction produced by Adam / Helmstetter were Consistent, expertly executed, readily available, and equal to any made from 1970 to date, so what is the negative side to having used them?

Please anyones thoughts on this subject would be appreciated.

Have a great 4th of July!!!
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The custom Helmstetter cues, pre 1968 were as good as anything made at the time to say the least.
Nick :)
 
manwon said:
View attachment 71218
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OK, I just got this in from Peter Balner. He is pretty certain the Paradise on the left is built from a blank his dad made while Paradise and Eugene Balner were still together. Although it was cut at the handle, from what I could see it was identical to the other Eugene Balner built blanks. This cue was built after the split, so Paradise must have had a stockpile. With Frank's small output, he might have used this stock for the several years until he closed down.

I have come to the conclusion that when you specifically see the type of blank pictured above on a Palmer, it was almost certainly built by Eugene Balner.

Chris
 
Spain and Paradise, Good stuff here

Peter Balner said that Spain and Frank knew each other, and Paradise was certainly buying blanks from Spain, "just like everyone else".

He also said that the cue makers and blank makers at the time were very guarded about how they did things, who they sold to, etc. and were " terrific disseminators of disinformation".

He also mentioned that quote

" Frank got his nicer blanks from old Brunswick and French made color inlaid 4 prong house cues, "just like everyone else". When we cue makers collectively cleaned out all of the poolrooms in the metro NY area of the usable house cues, everyone had to resort to other means.'

Now, here's an interesting statement - something I didn't know. How did the "reverse blanks" as we know them (ebony front) come to be?

" The 4 prong ebony house cues that were large enough to be cut, spliced, and reversed were very scarce indeed. Frank thought of the rings above the wrap. The original purpose of these were to allow an increase in the diameter of the cue at the top of the wrap. Otherwise, the wood was often too small in diameter to be reversed. My father's blanks changed all that, and he was making reverse ebony blanks right from the beginning. "

So, he's saying the reverse blank came to be by selecting a ebony handled house cue with sharp inside points, reversing it, and adding a handle above the wrap. He believes Frank was the first to do this, and his dad was the first to make them from scratch. Good shit.

Chris
 
cueaddicts said:
Chris,

Joe's right about this "cuemuseum" guy = bad ju ju......I sincerely hope this is not the source you all are giving any credence.

With repsect to this information, this is precisely why it's of such vital important to correctly document all of this history. With the passage of time, peoples' memories continue to get fuzzy and then one day those people aren't around to confirm anything.

Intriquing stuff...that's for sure. But I wholeheartedly believe that Paradise made many cues from Spain blanks, as well as the Titlists which we've all seen. That's just from me seeing the cues and my persective on what they are. Were there some that were not Spains....probably....but imho there's no way they are all categorically not.

Am going to revisit Burton's book today myself (this was not edited any prior to print was it?).

Sean
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Sean I thought I plainly stated that Joel Hercek himself who bought Burton's
was the one who told us he checked with Burton's old partner and said Frank never bought any blanks. Could be that the old partner forgot or whatever.
 
classiccues said:
Bob Meucci according to Spain in his book in regards to Wicco blanks.. "after a while he gave up on it"...

Spain mention Gordon Hart still making vinyl veneer cues at that time.

FYI...

JV
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That would go along with what Bob told me. He said Burton was making molds and making epoxy and other resin L shaped veneer inserts. And they had bubbles in them. Burton told him it was impossible to do without bubbles and Bob told him he thought he could do it and Burton assured him it was impossible. So Bob hired a plastic extruder to make the veneer inserts. He also said Burton just shook his head and walked out of the shop when he saw the blanks Bob had done and took a break from blank making. Bob made them a while and then gave the system to Gordon Hart when he was tired of making them. He said he liked the look of wood veneers better and wanted to use wood veneers on his own line of cues. Bob also said the glue to hold them in good was his hardest item to find.
 
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cueman said:
That would go along with what Bob told me. He said Burton was making molds and making epoxy and other resin L shaped veneer inserts. And they had bubbles in them. Burton told him it was impossible to do without bubbles and Bob told him he thought he could do it and Burton assured him it was impossible. So Bob hired a plastic extruder to make the veneer inserts. He also said Burton just shook his head and walked out of the shop when he saw the blanks Bob had done and took a break from blank making. Bob made them a while and then gave the system to Gordon Hart when he was tired of making them. He said he liked the look of wood veneers better and wanted to use wood veneers on his own line of cues. Bob also said the glue to hold them in good was his hardest item to find.
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I just listened to 3+ hours of tape.. I can tell you what sticks out in my mind. Everything I have said so far, as well as Gene Balner making some 1000 cues for Mel Berner, wonder how many of these are unknown. Gene Balners sponsor was a Hungarian Chicken Farmer in Chattanooga Tn. lol, Paradise cues were spray finished leaning up on the front of his building, Pete says Frank not a drinker despite numerous reports to the contrary. Pete says biggest change in Paradise cues when they arrived was getting rid of the pin through the joint wall, as well as better productivity.

Gordon Hart didn't really say much. Said IHO that National was more his competition than anyone else. (I guess midwest thing) Great Jansco story, and didn't use ivory. Said it looks better on an elephant than on a cue. Gordon did say he bought a lot of smaller companies, like Mastercue, which got it's start from Rich. Talked about Helmstetter and his movings. The only east coast tie in to Paradise was that towards the end, Frank Paradise sent all his repair work to Viking. Envelopes with no money, barely had all the addresses.

Dave Foreman sounded like he was a pistol. But again, nothing regarding custom cues Spain/Paradise/Palmer. Some interesting things about Adam cues, but I don't know anyone who would want to hear it. :D

JV
 
cueman said:
Sean I thought I plainly stated that Joel Hercek himself who bought Burton's
was the one who told us he checked with Burton's old partner and said Frank never bought any blanks. Could be that the old partner forgot or whatever.
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Hi Chris,

Burton's old partner is John Davis. When I spoke with him a while back on the subject, John didn't know of Burton's dealings except with Balabushka, and John took over that part of the business for awhile after Frank passed away. When I asked him if he recalled Frank Paradise buying forearms, he said that was Burton's area and he really didn't know who was buying them except Balabushka.

Chris
 
cueman said:
That would go along with what Bob told me. He said Burton was making molds and making epoxy and other resin L shaped veneer inserts. And they had bubbles in them. Burton told him it was impossible to do without bubbles and Bob told him he thought he could do it and Burton assured him it was impossible. So Bob hired a plastic extruder to make the veneer inserts. He also said Burton just shook his head and walked out of the shop when he saw the blanks Bob had done and took a break from blank making. Bob made them a while and then gave the system to Gordon Hart when he was tired of making them. He said he liked the look of wood veneers better and wanted to use wood veneers on his own line of cues. Bob also said the glue to hold them in good was his hardest item to find.
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This is what I am talking about. I will paraphrase the Spain version of this era. Chronologically
1- Spain had the extrusions made
2- Didn't like the issues, but made several cues this way
3- Kept this work a secret until he didn't want to pursue it
4- Gave the idea to Bob
5- THEN he tried to use epoxy for points, then stopped with bitter disappointment

JV
 
TATE said:
Hi Chris,

Burton's old partner is John Davis. When I spoke with him a while back on the subject, John didn't know of Burton's dealings except with Balabushka, and John took over that part of the business for awhile after Frank passed away. When I asked him if he recalled Frank Paradise buying forearms, he said that was Burton's area and he really didn't know who was buying them except Balabushka.

Chris
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This probably makes sense since John bought the business in 1970, and was according to Spain in his book, only a helper until he bought the business. So even if Davis starts in 1966/67 his dealings probably would not have extended that far. Paradise dies in 68 ish.. To me what would be interesting is to find out who Johns other customers were, I don't think George made him rich buying his blanks for 3-4 years.

JV
 
Wow !!!

This has been one great read and I think all you guys deserve good reps!
So what I have gathered now after all this back and forth is that Burton Spain, just like HE wrote in HIS book, did sell blanks to Frank Paradise. I looked at a Paradise last year and it had five veneers, so can I go to sleep knowing Burton Spain made and sold that blank to Paradise ?
 
After reading the quotes from Burton himself, I am convinced he did indeed build blanks for Frank. Frank was probably secretive about it. Interestingly Burton said after the initial samples Frank only bought one color combination: Maple fronts, Ebony points, with white, green, orange and black veneers. That color combination should make Burton's blanks easy to spot in Paradise cues. I am guessing those early samples in other colors got made into Paradise cues, but they would be rare finds.
 
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classiccues said:
I just listened to 3+ hours of tape.. I can tell you what sticks out in my mind. Everything I have said so far, as well as Gene Balner making some 1000 cues for Mel Berner, wonder how many of these are unknown. Gene Balners sponsor was a Hungarian Chicken Farmer in Chattanooga Tn. lol, Paradise cues were spray finished leaning up on the front of his building, Pete says Frank not a drinker despite numerous reports to the contrary. Pete says biggest change in Paradise cues when they arrived was getting rid of the pin through the joint wall, as well as better productivity.

Gordon Hart didn't really say much. Said IHO that National was more his competition than anyone else. (I guess midwest thing) Great Jansco story, and didn't use ivory. Said it looks better on an elephant than on a cue. Gordon did say he bought a lot of smaller companies, like Mastercue, which got it's start from Rich. Talked about Helmstetter and his movings. The only east coast tie in to Paradise was that towards the end, Frank Paradise sent all his repair work to Viking. Envelopes with no money, barely had all the addresses.

Dave Foreman sounded like he was a pistol. But again, nothing regarding custom cues Spain/Paradise/Palmer. Some interesting things about Adam cues, but I don't know anyone who would want to hear it. :D

JV
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I might be interested.... a little....maybe...
SPILL IT!!!...PLEASE!!!:smile: :smile:


Jayman
 
APA sleeper said:
This has been one great read and I think all you guys deserve good reps!
So what I have gathered now after all this back and forth is that Burton Spain, just like HE wrote in HIS book, did sell blanks to Frank Paradise. I looked at a Paradise last year and it had five veneers, so can I go to sleep knowing Burton Spain made and sold that blank to Paradise ?
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If it was 5 veneers, yes, it undoubtedly was a Spain blank.

Interestingly enough, Eddie Laube in Chicago was also building his own 5 veneer blanks too at the time.

Chris
 
Man o Man. This is one great thread. I have read with rapt interest. Thank each of you for the walk through history. I have been an Adam/Helmstetter fan for a long time and regret having sold all of those great cues. Thanks guys, very much, a great read.
 
Helmstetter 86-06

I have to agree that this thread has been a terrific source of info, and kudos for Craig starting it back in the summer! Very cool that the interest has held in this subject. :thumbup:

Shortly after this thread started, and with some private convo with Craig, I happened into this cue.

DSCN0608.jpg


Initially, I was simply interested in it for it's blank. I mean how many of these old cues doe you find in a wrapless veneered full splice?! Not many.

I got the cue and looked it over...the points were almost perfectly even...very small variance, which is barely noticeable, if at all. The veneer work is pretty darn good as well....no gapping, tear-outs, or glue lines.

I decided to see how it played...which was the biggest eye-opener of all! Cue plays pretty darn sporty...feels very natural in the hand...it begs to be played with! :)

This cue, and with all the info that has appeared in this thread, gave me a new outlook on these often over-looked cues. I would suggest more people give them a try!

Lisa
 
From my understanding there was a period of time shortly after Helmstetter transitioned to Japan that the quality took a major hit. I gentleman I know used to deal the cues in his pool hall. He said he was constantly sending defective cues back to the manufacturer.

I have an early C6 with a BEM forearm and original leather wrap that is very well made. I also have what some one described as a Greenleaf Helmstetter that Nubs Wagner converted some time back.
 
cueaddicts said:
Chris,

Joe's right about this "cuemuseum" guy = bad ju ju......I sincerely hope this is not the source you all are giving any credence.

Sean
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The guys a real prize. He was constantly contacting me a few years ago. Somehow he was under the impression that I was in possession of a bunch of billiards related items. He can really lay it on thick.

I checked him out and everybody I talked to said, run as fast as you can.

I have not heard from him in years. Thank god.
 
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