Why not a push shot in APA 9-ball ?

Maniac

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
I've seen this happen a lot in APA 9-ball. A lower skill level player is playing an APA SL6 or SL7. The lower level player breaks and makes a ball and has absolutely no shot at even hitting the lowest numbered object ball on the table, most of the time ending up as ball in hand for the higher skilled player usually resulting in anywhere from a 5 or 6 ball run to running the rack out and getting the break in the next game which also usually ends up with more points for the higher skilled player. In a league designed primarily for amatuers and beginners, wouldn't a push shot make more sense in aiding a lower skilled player into having at least an option of hitting the next ball so ball in hand wouldn't be give to the opponent? What are your thoughts here, especially from those who participate in an APA league? I know that some will say that with the handicapping that it all evens out, but imo the higher skilled player usually comes out ahead in this situation (maybe not necessarily the match, but geez they sure get a big jump on points when this happens).

Maniac
 
Lack of a push shot in APA 9-ball has always confused me also. I can't think of any decent reason why it's excluded.

The 23 rule for 9-ball should also be updated. It doesn't make any sense to limit teams to the same number as 8-ball teams when you can have players ranked as an 8 or 9. The team handicap should be at least 25.
 
I don't play APA 9 ball but I do play in the 8 ball league

Watching the lower players in 8 ball and the skills that they have it wouldn't matter if they were to push out because they wouldn't know how to do a good pushout that would benefit them.

The same goes for 8 ball. You make a ball on the break and you are stuck with that group even if you don't have a shot.
 
Derek The 23 rule for 9-ball should also be updated. It doesn't make any sense to limit teams to the same number as 8-ball teams when you can have players ranked as an 8 or 9. The team handicap should be at least 25.[/QUOTE said:
The A stands for amateur. They don't want too many good players on one team. The other is they want you to move up in rank so that the team breaks up and forms another team. More teams equals more income.
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No push shot in APA

The reason there is no push out in APA is because the better skill level can make it a big advantage. I'm an APA SL9 and I would pushout to a shot I would make 95% of the time and the APA 5 might make it 25% of the time. I can also push out to a good safe that lower skill levels can't see or do. I can regain control of the game with a push out and we all know what APA SL9 do when they are in control of the game.

Keep in mind the APA Masters teams can push out! They can also use jump cues.
 
TWOFORPOOL said:
The reason there is no push out in APA is because the better skill level can make it a big advantage. I'm an APA SL9 and I would pushout to a shot I would make 95% of the time and the APA 5 might make it 25% of the time. I can also push out to a good safe that lower skill levels can't see or do. I can regain control of the game with a push out and we all know what APA SL9 do when they are in control of the game.

Keep in mind the APA Masters teams can push out! They can also use jump cues.
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Good obsevation. The lower level players mostly get their balls when you break, make a ball, and get hooked. Otherwise with the push rule they might only get a few balls. Usually it would be when you scratch.
 
This is one of the things I just don't get about APA. I can't think of a reason why there is no push out other than it could statistically make games shorter by not having it. The other things I don't get are the same skill totals in 8 and 9 ball and not being able to use a jump cue.
 
The push shot favours the better player in almost all scenarios. Often times there isn't any shot the lower level player can push out to that the better player doesn't have the advantage.
 
The no push out rule for APA 9 Ball has always been deemed an advantage for the higher skill level player and for this reason it will most likely never be implemented into the APA system. The APA is one of the only structured leagues in the pool world that the lower skill levels players can actually have fun competing in. Imagine the fun these players would have in a BCA league? The APA does listen to its players via the voice of thier league operators and now we have the Masters Divisions where the higher skill level players can push out, use jump cues and play both 8 Ball and 9 Ball all in the same night. Ours is a cash league and theres never a question of where the money is at the end of a session, if you have played pool for as long as I have then you have heard the stories of league operators walking with the money at the end of a season and leaving all of the league players "shafted".
 
TWOFORPOOL said:
The reason there is no push out in APA is because the better skill level can make it a big advantage. I'm an APA SL9 and I would pushout to a shot I would make 95% of the time and the APA 5 might make it 25% of the time. I can also push out to a good safe that lower skill levels can't see or do. I can regain control of the game with a push out and we all know what APA SL9 do when they are in control of the game.

Keep in mind the APA Masters teams can push out! They can also use jump cues.
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Bob I will agree with you to an extent. I am also a SL9 but no longer play APA. The reason the LO here gave was the lower players wouldn't understand it. Thats crap & an insult to people's intelligence. Yes it is an advantage to higher players... but seriously don't the lower levels get enough weight.. if it keeps going one of these days the SL9 is just gonna have to sign the score sheet and say good game. Same can be said for the formula of counting each ball as a point which is NOT real 9ball though I did enjoy the format when I played. Just my 2 cents but if the APA actually wanted players to become better they would adjust several things. It's all about the $$$$.
 
Also, APA cites that they don't have the ability to mark an inning for a push.

The reality is that APA wants to keep the league as friendly to the common masses who pay their annual dues who makeup the majority of their league.

The people far and away are the SL3s and SL4s. They want to make the league accessible and games winnable to these people.

The best chance a high SL shooter has on a bar table to turn the table over is off the break, with lots of clusters, and no pushout. I realize this is not the case for each APA league, but most of the time, more or less.
 
TWOFORPOOL said:
The reason there is no push out in APA is because the better skill level can make it a big advantage. I'm an APA SL9 and I would pushout to a shot I would make 95% of the time and the APA 5 might make it 25% of the time. I can also push out to a good safe that lower skill levels can't see or do. I can regain control of the game with a push out and we all know what APA SL9 do when they are in control of the game.

Keep in mind the APA Masters teams can push out! They can also use jump cues.
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This basically sums up why the APA doesn't allow push outs for handicapped 9-ball divisions. I'm a SL6 and play in one of these 9-ball divisions. The push out would just confuse and frustrate the lower skill level players, and the APA handicapped divisions are catered to the low skill level players. A SL3 player would have no clue about push out strategy.
 
If you apply this same logic that it is to the advantage of the better player, then why not eliminate safeties. Certainly a stronger 6 or 7 will lock up a 2 or 3 and get ball in hand more often. Also a stronger player will escape the safety of the weaker player more often.
The advantage of the push out for the weaker player is that he may make a ball on the break but get no shot. The weaker player may not be able to kick out of the safety. The push out, even a weak one , will keep the stronger player from getting ball in hand with many balls on the table.
 
Don't get me started on the APA. There are many things that they could change but they won't for the reason that most have noted in this thread which is the skill level of most of the players in APA leagues. It would just confuse most of the players.
 
kaznj said:
If you apply this same logic that it is to the advantage of the better player, then why not eliminate safeties. Certainly a stronger 6 or 7 will lock up a 2 or 3 and get ball in hand more often. Also a stronger player will escape the safety of the weaker player more often.... The weaker player may not be able to kick out of the safety.
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The reason why safeties are recorded is to prevent sandbagging. It has nothing to do with one skill level having an advantage over another. A lot of players deliberately miss shots to increase their inning count to keep their skill level lower than it should be. Marking safeties basically is supposed to cancel out the extra innings and prevent sandbagging. If you didn't mark safeties, you'd have even more 4s or 5s who play like 6s and 7s.

kaznj said:
The advantage of the push out for the weaker player is that he may make a ball on the break but get no shot.... The push out, even a weak one , will keep the stronger player from getting ball in hand with many balls on the table.
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The weaker player has NO advantage pushing out because most of the weaker players have absolutely no clue what a good push out is. They can only hurt themselves by pushing out.

A weak push out gives no advantage whatsoever to the weak player, since the stronger player has the option to take the shot or give the shot back to the weak player. If the weak player pushes out to an impossible shot or safety the stronger gives the shot back, and the weak player gets the worst of it. If the weak player pushes out to an easy shot or safety, the stronger player accepts the shot and the weak player gets the worst of it again. There's no way to gain advantage from a bad push out unless your opponents dogs a shot.
 
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Nitrox11 said:
Don't get me started on the APA. There are many things that they could change but they won't for the reason that most have noted in this thread which is the skill level of most of the players in APA leagues. It would just confuse most of the players.
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That's exactly why they don't have a push out in handicapped divisions, along with a lot of the other goofy rules they have. These rules are designed mainly to benefit the Skill Level 3 and below players.
 
blueridge said:
The weaker player has NO advantage pushing out because most of the weaker players have absolutely no clue what a good push out is. They can only hurt themselves by pushing out.
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I must respectfuly disagree with this logic. A good push out for a lower skilled player would be one where, after executed, he/she could at least make contact with the lowest numbered object ball. I don't think lower skilled players are too ignorant to comprehend how to do this. If the push by the lower skilled player is given back to them, at least they can hit the intended ball and NOT give up ball in hand to a player who is capable of running the table. If the higher skilled player accepts the shot and shoots a safety thereby locking their opponent up again, at least the lower skill level player is no worse off than they were after the break. I could see where a push shot may be a good alternative for a lower skilled player. And I don't understand this bunk about a lower skill level player not knowing what to do with a push out. Hell, they get TWO time outs per rack. Use one of 'em then if necessary. Geez, any coach worth their salt should be able to tell them where to push out to and/or how. And after a few instructions in the course of several matches, any half-educated person should have the brain-power to comprehend the shot for future use.
Again, just my opinion. I'm not saying I'm totally right, just that this is the way I see it.

Maniac
 
Don`t they have coaches or the captains to help the lower ranked players in these decisions ? A time out I believe its called ?


highrun55
 
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