Why not play 15 ball rotation?

Johnnyt said:
Most pros don't think they should have to work at anything...including pool. Johnnyt
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LOL! But when I think of SVB's schedule, it sure seems like work to me. Not the playing as much as the pain of travel, the jet lag, poor food, hotel & motel rooms, etc.

At my age, (71) just that would put me in the ground.

To stay on topic...I also like the idea of a 15 ball rotation tourney.
 
My take on fairness at rotation

I feel that a fairer way to score 15 ball rotation would be to give the one ball 15 points, the two ball 14 points, the three ball 13 points, etc. This reasoning follows that; as more balls are pocketed, each successive shot and position play, become progressively easier and are therefore worth progressively less in points.
I also feel that ball in hand for fouls is better than cue ball behind the headstring for this reason. In all other games or sports, when a foul is committed, the opposing team or player receives a benefit of some sort. If in pool, after a foul or scratch, the opponent has to shoot from behind the headstring, he's the one being penalized for the others error. He might not even have a shot at the next ball if it ends up behind the headstring too. Just my take on fairness which is why we have rules in the first place.
 
it's a good thing we have chocolate & vanilla, so everyone can have the flavor they want.

I'm a traditionalist, so I vote for the tried & true 15 Ball Rotation of yesteryear.

Maybe the Pool Room will have lots of tables, so folks can play any game they like, the way they like to play.

Good Luck
 
Anyone have any written rules for original 15 ball rotation? I know it used to be in the back of the BCA rulebook, but I don't have one of those handy. I just wondered how it was written in there.
 
This is long over due IMO… ..

I think, next to 1P, rotation is one of the toughest games to play.

Jay, why not make the bigfoot challenge a rotation game.. ?

I also think every game the Pro's play, should be on a 10 footer.. .:wink:

When you look back in history, that was what they always played on, until the powers that be, decided to make the game easier, or to help move it along for tv.
 
Why not play rotation? Because the Pinos would win every time. Oh wait, they already win every time. OK, I guess nothing would change.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
I have always wondered why 15 ball rotation (the traditional game, not the new "American rotation") is not the chosen game to measure pro skills. Obviously I favor straight pool, others may favor 8 ball and one pocket, but as far as playing balls in rotation I don't think 15 ball rotation could be beaten.

First the break: Even though the break in this game would eventually figured out to a certain degree (playing position on the one for example), the congestion caused by 15 balls and the unpredictability of the full rack would make it immune to the problems of other rotation games.

Second, the gameplay: Safteties, kicking, shotmaking, position play, rotation has got it all. No one is going to run the set out, and if they did it would surely be an astonishing feat. No softbreak identical layouts. IMHO you have to be a complete pool player to play rotation at a high level, which explains why the Phillipinos are doing so well at all games, even games they have hardly ever played before.

Third, fairness: Although there is a certain degree of unfairness in the fact that the lowest numbered balls have the least points to them, still you will never get the sitiuation where a player runs all the balls but one, and then loses.

Fourth, simplicity: It is a feature of all good poolgames that they have a certain simplicity about them. Rotation has that. You score the number of points on the ball you sink, doesn't get any easier than that. One of the many reasons why bonus ball and Power Snooker failed is that they are just to darned complicated for any viewers to bother learning.

Fifth, integrity: Perhaps this needs a bit of explaining. To me there is something unnatural about the "ball in hand anywhere on the table rule", it feels like cheating to me. Shooting a spot shot, shooting from the kitchen and having the option of taking the the table as it is or passing it to your opponent are much better IMHO. That way you essentially earn every opportunity after a foul.

Sixth, challenging the pros: While I don't necessarily always agree with the whining that 9 ball does not challenge the pros, playing rotation ought to stop that whining forever.
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You are very wrong. Rotation could be over by the 11th ball. It's not related to 9 ball or 10 ball at all. Those two games don't keep score by adding up the numbers of the balls pocketed. Your opening argument is specious.

In regards to "a player runs all the balls but one, and then loses.", this is one of the great things about 9 ball and 10 ball. Why change it? Not that you can or will.

ONB
 
How am I wrong exactly? I was referring to the fact that in 9 or 10 ball you can make 8 or 9 good shots and still lose. In rotation a game can be finished early, sure, but you still have to make some shots to win. If you make a shot you get credit (points for it). This changes the nature of the game because it also puts pressure on you opponent. He has to consider the score. Once your opponent misses in 9 ball, essentially all the pressure is off and you are back to square one. Lets say I play rotation and miss, needing one of the remaining balls. This is different from playing 9 ball and missing on the seven. In 9 ball the opponent can play a safe, knowing that I not only need 1 more ball, but also have to either play safe directly or pocket the ball AND get some kind of position on the next ball. This may seem like a minor difference, but it isn't.



You make 8 fantastic shots in 9 ball and may end up with nothing to show for it. In rotation you can't win the game with one lucky shot either. You can't make the money ball on the break and win through that fact alone (theoretically you could of course pocket enough of the balls to win, but this never happens in practice). If the 1-15 combination lines up at the start, you still have to make more balls to win, because you need 61 points. That is what I meant.
 
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Straightpool_99 said:
I don't want to change 9 ball, and I have no illusions that I will either. Every freakin' tournament some "genius" comes up with a way to change this game, and it never works. It remains a fun, fast game to play with friends and gamble at, but it will never be the perfect pool game IMHO. As far as 10-ball goes, it may be a better test of the pros abilities than 9 ball (I feel that it is), but it is a snooze to watch. The call shot/call safe rules make it even more boring to me at least. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
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We are more in agreement than you think. The 10 ball rules are a joke, it should be played the same as 9 ball rules. The 10 balls are simply to eliminate the break, more or less, from being the dominating factor it is in 9 ball.

I think an opponents nervousness shooting the money ball is a wonderful thing to see but I am talking about gambling. I don't care what they do in tournaments.

When the score is 6-6 and the race is to 7 and you have to shoot a tough 9 ball, well, that's when true colors show up and I like that.

ONB
 
Old Nine Baller said:
You are very wrong. Rotation could be over by the 11th ball. It's not related to 9 ball or 10 ball at all. Those two games don't keep score by adding up the numbers of the balls pocketed. Your opening argument is specious.

In regards to "a player runs all the balls but one, and then loses.", this is one of the great things about 9 ball and 10 ball. Why change it? Not that you can or will.

ONB
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Straightpool_99 said:
How am I wrong exactly? I was referring to the fact that in 9 or 10 ball you can make 8 or 9 good shots and still lose. In rotation a game can be finished early, sure, but you still have to make some shots to win. If you make a shot you get credit (points for it). This changes the nature of the game because it also puts pressure on you opponent. He has to consider the score. Once your opponent misses in 9 ball, essentially all the pressure is off and you are back to square one. Lets say I play rotation and miss, needing one of the remaining balls. This is different from playing 9 ball and missing on the seven. In 9 ball the opponent can play a safe, knowing that I not only need 1 more ball, but also have to either play safe directly or pocket the ball AND get some kind of position on the next ball. This may seem like a minor difference, but it isn't.



You make 8 fantastic shots in 9 ball and may end up with nothing to show for it. In rotation you can't win the game with one lucky shot either. You can't make the money ball on the break and win through that fact alone (theoretically you could of course pocket enough of the balls to win, but this never happens in practice). If the 1-15 combination lines up at the start, you still have to make more balls to win, because you need 61 points. That is what I meant.
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The reasons you don't like 9 ball are the very things that have always made me enjoy the game. Only one ball counts for anything.

Rotation's not a bad game but as long as we're talking about pro players which means tournaments then I'd point out that viewers probably wouldn't want to watch it. It can turn into a safety battle worse than 9 ball sometimes does. That can equate to "boring".

ONB
 
As well

jay helfert said:
Rotation would be a great tournament game, and I've actually thought about doing one. Thanks for the suggestion. I guarantee you one thing, the best players will be the ones left standing in the end. Efren reigned for years in the Philippines, until Dennis took over. They play Rotation all the time over there, granted a slightly different version than our game, but not by much.
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Jay,
I've considered this as well. To address the first post of the thread. by StraightPool_99

...I think most people who haven't played American Rotation would think just like you do. Let me make a few points on it. I;ve played it what I consider my introductory times.

I originally thought that the 1-10 being one point and the 11-15 being two would cause some problems with the game but not until people can blow through the rack to the 11 and that rarely happens. This way the first guy gets a few points, shoots safe and the next guy has to really try hard to kick safe which is a top level skill and good for the game.

You have to fight for who gets the right to make those ball 11-15. You can play them with caroms etc in the early rack and that skill is also good for the game. When Joe changed the manner of the break, to where its break ball in hand for every player that was all the change the game likely needed.

Im a One Pocket addict and I can see from playing American Rotation that this high level skill game if its continued to be played that more people will graduate from it to One Pocket which in my opinion is the most skilled game being that you play Cue Ball as the most important piece on every shot....which is to me anyway, good for the game.

In 9 ball its tempting to try every shot because there is no immediate penalty in American Rotation it costs you the promise of making points.

I was not in agreement with Joe Tucker at first about the point assignment within the rack but I think I have changed my mind because the assignment changes the nature of the game because of the promise of more points and the person that gets to shoot them has to be the person shooting the best safes.....again good for the game.

I think if you give American Rotation a try and put in a few sessions with it that you will be happy you did. I was and I hope to get a league up out of where I play the guys are warming up to it now.
 
American Rotation was designed to;
Help raise our level of play, obviously worked in the Philippines but we weren't doing anything about it.

Call shot call safe wasn't just because players were getting lucky and benefiting from a lock up safe on a miss and there's still plenty of luck. We also like the fact that a player must go ALL IN when playing a shot.

The break rules were designed to help me make less money selling Racking Secrets DVDs :) Also to make the rack & break less of a factor, play more of a factor and to reduce friction between players and arguments at events. And it works, its much more like watching a Snooker match.

Just because we have a few new rules doesn't automatically make it complicated, it is very, very simple.

I didn't invent the game simple for the sake of me wanting to invent something. Just like everything else I've designed in pool it came from problems we were having and it does help to solve some.

We're hoping to form a national qualifying tour with 5-600 players nationwide and we could use your support. Give the game and the organization a try, play some and consider uniting 10 local players to become part of it. We're around 250 players now but need lot of help adding rooms throughout the country.

This is a grassroots format that nobody gets hurt with. A real opportunity for us to help shape our own future rather than sitting around waiting for someone else to do it for us.
 
I don't think any one game will solve our problems. You can play 9-ball rotation if you like, that's short game. The ills of our industry didn't come about, because of how the game is played. Some of us have a good position game, a good break shot, some are great shot makers & some are lucky. We're all just trying to do our best & have some fun.

The players around here, come out of the woodwork for a tournament & more would come if the pot was right.

I'm just glad I can still play Pool & maybe even win a tournament once in awhile.
 
ceebee said:
I don't think any one game will solve our problems. You can play 9-ball rotation if you like, that's short game. The ills of our industry didn't come about, because of how the game is played. Some of us have a good position game, a good break shot, some are great shot makers & some are lucky. We're all just trying to do our best & have some fun.

The players around here, come out of the woodwork for a tournament & more would come if the pot was right.

I'm just glad I can still play Pool & maybe even win a tournament once in awhile.
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I don't think it'll solve everything either but there's no denying we are taking one positive step forward for the players and the industry. That alone should be enough for your respect and support.
 
Anything would be an improvement over 9 and 10 ball. I don't even watch those games anymore but I would watch rotation. I don't know the rules but if they played Texas Express it would be a joke. Somehow we have to get a rotation game that forces the players to shoot tough shots so we can see how good they really are
 
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