Why Pool is devastated by the new Smoking Laws.

chefjeff said:
It also means no one has to care for others, just not harm others.

The health care of the employees is the employee's responsiblity.
Click to expand...

chefjeff said:
Morality isn't something to pick and choose depending on what issue is at hand; it is universal and objective or else it is preference, not morality.
Click to expand...


Here is where we differ. I believe that whether or not the employer exposes the employee to harm is the responsibility of the business owner. You seem to not believe this. I think the basis for my belief is morality. You *appear* to think that the basis for your belief is "ownership".

My application of a moral imperative is quite consistent in everything I said: "treat others with respect and courtesy".

Your differing view contradicts your claim that morality is objective and universal. Unless of course one of us is wrong and the other is right ;-)

You seem very fixated on the somewhat limiting concept of "ownership". It has some application to some topics, but not all. Funny thing is, we don't truly own *anything*. We will be rotting in the dirt some day, at which point we own exactly nothing. It could be tomorrow, who knows? We use things, share the society, share each other. This is universal, and objectively true. "It also means no one has to care for others" is about the furthest thing from morality I can think of. I would say it is the exact opposite of morality.

KMRUNOUT
 
chefjeff said:
My brother in law has lived in a chair for 40 years and you should hear him complain about the ADA.

It's the govt that has dissed those bound in chairs.

And to think I don't care about those Persons just because I don't agree with the use of govt violence to get stuff done, is mean...very mean on your part.

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

I'm sorry. I read your posts as if you don't consider the health of workers in this discussion. If I mis-read, I'm sorry. I'm going to play pool, have a good weekend.
 
Spider1 said:
Do you work there? No? Well you've at least seen the ringouts yourself first hand, right? Done the data/ledger entries for the shift ringouts? Compared them to previous years before the ban? Compared specific apples-to-apples holiday weekend/events from year to year and seen the results? Right?

Or are you just...you know...'theorizing'?

Why would I ? I don't work there. But when I asked the owner he advised business has not changed,,,,, there was no drop off. What, should I call him a liar??
Fumes from petroleum products are carcinogenic. Oil getting on skin is a carcinogen.

How many mechanics do you see wearing full body suits and breather masks?

I look forward to you protesting and urging laws to more heavily regulate those industries. The world despises a hypocrite, after all. :)

Actually, I've seen my oil change guy were rubber gloves. Not really sure what your point is, but you really should go out for a smoke :)
Click to expand...
 
Spider1 said:
It's an excuse, and a rather condescending one. They don't give a flying f*ck about bar staff or their health, they just don't like icky smoke and any excuse to ban it is fine. I have a lot more respect for people who admit their fascist beliefs and come right out and say what they believe in, vs hiding their partisan beliefs behind a smoke screen of "Well I'm concerned about others...". No you're not, you're concerned with getting your way.
Click to expand...

We implemented an indoor smoking ban here in Oregon on Jan 1, 2009 which included everywhere. I personally don't give a damn about anyone's health or comfort from smoke related causes except my own. Everyone has a choice to work there or not. To patronize the joint or not and on and on. I spent decades loathing that the only place to play a competitive pool match was withing the vile confines of filthy smoke stenched rooms. I played in spite of this because I love the game but I can tell you unequivocally the smoking ban was the single best thing to happen to pool in my lifetime. I'm a selfish SOB and I love the new Oregon!! I waited my whole life for the other selfish crew to voluntarily go outside to smoke those filthy things and it never happened. I don't think it ever even crossed their minds. They don't seem to mind that much any more now that they have to.

Mind if I smoke? No not at all, mind if I shit diarrhea inside your mouth, nose and all over your clothes and hair? And yes, the two questions are almost exactly equivalent, except a shower will get rid of the shit smell from a person.
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Here is where we differ. I believe that whether or not the employer exposes the employee to harm is the responsibility of the business owner. You seem to not believe this.
Click to expand...

First, there is no perfect protection for health and no perfectly safe place to work.

Second, it is each Person's responsiblity to care for ones self. That includes making rational decisions as to where one puts one's property (body, in this case) so as to not endanger one's health. Walking into a smoky bar might not be a good work choice is one wants to stay as healthy as possible.

The owner is providing money for labor. NO one is forced into labor in America. The choice to enter a potentially dangerous place is the choice of the Person who chose to walk into that place. No one put a gun to anyone's head. A responsible Person who cares more for his health than his paycheck would stay away and choose another way to make money.

KMRUNOUT said:
I think the basis for my belief is morality. You *appear* to think that the basis for your belief is "ownership".

My application of a moral imperative is quite consistent in everything I said: "treat others with respect and courtesy".

Your differing view contradicts your claim that morality is objective and universal. Unless of course one of us is wrong and the other is right ;-)
Click to expand...

Try making your moral argument without there FIRST being self ownership. Can't do it so the objective principle of self ownership MUST FIRST be integrated to begin making moral cases of any kind.

Respect is an expression of not harming others, and a very good thing. A good pool hall owner might do things to help others and respect those folks, but if the employee doesn't even have enough respect for his own property (his body) does it follow that now another Person should be disrepected and blamed and fined and made to care for the employee? I've know bosses who died from breathing smoke, so the boss is being disrspectful to himself, too. I have no argument with you there.

I'll entertain the 'morality isn't objective' argument. But without first recogninzing ownership of self as real and as a responsiblity of each self, we're probably at a standstill.

Jeff Livingston
 
ndakotan said:
I'm sorry. I read your posts as if you don't consider the health of workers in this discussion. If I mis-read, I'm sorry. I'm going to play pool, have a good weekend.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, too. I was in a pizzy mood when I posted that.

The story is true, but you didn't deserve the 'mean' lable. I don't know you well enough to come to that conclusion.

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
First, there is no perfect protection for health and no perfectly safe place to work.

Second, it is each Person's responsiblity to care for ones self. That includes making rational decisions as to where one puts one's property (body, in this case) so as to not endanger one's health. Walking into a smoky bar might not be a good work choice is one wants to stay as healthy as possible.

The owner is providing money for labor. NO one is forced into labor in America. The choice to enter a potentially dangerous place is the choice of the Person who chose to walk into that place. No one put a gun to anyone's head. A responsible Person who cares more for his health than his paycheck would stay away and choose another way to make money.



Try making your moral argument without there FIRST being self ownership. Can't do it so the objective principle of self ownership MUST FIRST be integrated to begin making moral cases of any kind.

Respect is an expression of not harming others, and a very good thing. A good pool hall owner might do things to help others and respect those folks, but if the employee doesn't even have enough respect for his own property (his body) does it follow that now another Person should be disrepected and blamed and fined and made to care for the employee? I've know bosses who died from breathing smoke, so the boss is being disrspectful to himself, too. I have no argument with you there.

I'll entertain the 'morality isn't objective' argument. But without first recogninzing ownership of self as real and as a responsiblity of each self, we're probably at a standstill.

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

Jeff,

We are clearly at a standstill. I hear and understand exactly what you are saying, I just disagree with some of your premises. Likewise, I think you might need a refresher course on logic. Everyone has a vague notion of what they thing logic is and how it works. Logic, unlike morality, is ONLY objective. There is only one logic, and it is provable, abstract, and universal. You consistently get confused with the (mistaken) belief that one person's actions or decisions has an impact on the moral obligations of another person.

Perhaps when you sort out your thoughts and resolve the logic inconsistencies, we will no longer be at a standstill. However, just as in a bar open to the public, I won't hold my breath.

I do enjoy the back and forth though...nice to know at least someone has put some thought into something!

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Jeff,

We are clearly at a standstill. I hear and understand exactly what you are saying, I just disagree with some of your premises. Likewise, I think you might need a refresher course on logic. Everyone has a vague notion of what they thing logic is and how it works. Logic, unlike morality, is ONLY objective. There is only one logic, and it is provable, abstract, and universal. You consistently get confused with the (mistaken) belief that one person's actions or decisions has an impact on the moral obligations of another person.

Perhaps when you sort out your thoughts and resolve the logic inconsistencies, we will no longer be at a standstill. However, just as in a bar open to the public, I won't hold my breath.

I do enjoy the back and forth though...nice to know at least someone has put some thought into something!

KMRUNOUT
Click to expand...

Well thanks for the advice.

Here is a good start for anyone wanting to follow KM's advice:

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/

Jeff Livingston
 
Suck in the the good second hand smoke, ahhhh.

This post is wacked, and usually I get much entertainment from reading Paul's threads. I don't have time to do so today. So I will say this as probably many others have.

Go back to trying to change the rules of various games of pool, rather than insulting the general pool community with your stats. Class warfare should be in NPR.

As for smoking I do believe many people's health is devastated by smoke, but they are likely allergic to many other things as well. I think if the facts were out there, people would realize that our diets and other influences have put our health on the edge over the last 30 years. It is easy to regulate cigarette / smoking laws, but why not go after mold and dust mites ! Feel free to put this post in NPR. Or just accept that I am a bottom feeder that needs a table at home because billiards is synonymous with polo.

Don't feel bad if you don't understand my post. Just a little ranting.
 
This post might be a bit of a stretch but I'll post it anyway.

My wife and I were eating lunch at chain called New Orleans Hamburger. It is a lot more than hamburgers but that's not the point. They had some sports televisions placed sparingly around the dining area and a bowling tournament was on and in between carrying on a conversation I would look up and wince at the television. My wife quickly noted that I was looking at the television and I explained my whine to her. I complained that bowling had all of the terrific sponsors and all of this great television coverage with national sports broadcasting companies and I was, well, jealous and wondered why bowling could obtain all of these things while pool sits here and struggles.

Now keep in mind that my wife doesn't play pool and doesn't bowl but has done both but many years ago. Since I had asked for her opinion, she was quick to give one as she has a minor disgust with pool which is probably more about the time that I have put into it than the sport itself. She said, "It is quite simple. Bowling is a family sport. Just look at the people in the audience on the television and you see men, women and children. Go to any bowling alley and you see men, women and children. Got to a pool hall and all you see if bunch of guys with egos the size of Texas trying to dominate one another." I laughed but had to give her credit. She made an astute observation. She went on to say that sponsors like to get the most for their dollar.

Looking at the PBA list of sponsors, you see names like:
Alka-Seltzer, Barbasol, Bayer Aspirin, Brunswick, Budweiser, Geico, Jack Links beef Jerky, Just for Men, Pepsi, USBC, etc. The United States Bowling Congress website has it ALL: Every piece of information that you will ever want to know about bowling. It's incredible and sad for those of us who love pocket billiards.

Sure, some will say it is successful because a bunch of Microsoft executives got behind bowling and made it successful but that was just the initial building blocks. I'm not sure if the same can be done for pool.

Apologies to Paul if this got too far off track with what he was trying to accomplish.

Bar those punk-arses with their drawers showing and especially those damned plumber wannabees in all pool halls. :D
 
HOLY CRAP JOEY did you say Barbasol? That's about as old as Aqua Velva!!!
BTW your bride is right on the money!! Cheers!
 
Who cares? I'll keep this real short; I hear people saying how pool is dying. Well I hope it dies today. pfffff
 
Based on what JoeyA's wife said....


If pool wants to grow, have to get more people in pool rooms and into pool. Unfortunately, pool is tainted by smoke. Most mothers do not want to take their kids or family to places with smoke. Pool rooms are not family places. She is completely right. Now, in one way, I like that it isn't a family place. I'm sure some of you would agree. On the other hand, how do we expect pool to grow and become what we would like it to without it becoming a family place? You see, how do you get youth into it? Without youth, it doesn't get into schools or other places and is not played competitively. Building life-long fans. Growing the sport. Look how many kids play sports. How many kids play pool? Only the ones cutting class. Wonderful.


As I said much earlier in this thread, clinging to smoking and smokers is a recipe for the death of pool. It's simple. Need to broaden and expand the potential customer base. And that is not possible because of the damn smoke. Get it through your heads. There are way more people than not who refuse to subject themselves to smoke.

As they years go by, pool is lagging behind the transition curve. Others (businesses, hobbies/sports etcetera) are ahead and are finding successful business models for themselves. What are many pool room owners doing? Clinging to the smokers. Clinging to that which will eventually go extinct. Brilliant. :rolleyes:


But some are forward thinking, and have found solutions. They will survive, the others will fail. This is a sort of business version of natural selection. When smoking is eradicated from pool, then pool has a chance to finally grow in a meaningful way. But it will take many years, decades maybe, for people to come back to pool. That's why I said that pool has lagged behind. Others have had to deal with smoke bans 20 years ago or more.


Now, what's good for pool and what's good for a room owner are two different things. No one here is going to convince a man with a smoking pool room that a ban is a good thing. Their interest and priority isn't pool's future, it's making a living.
 
And a similar note, what would it of been like if smoking was NEVER allowed in pool rooms, would anyone complain....In life, once you've given something to someone, it's Very difficult to take it away. Prohibition comes to mind.
 
Joey..I think your wife has it right, but I also don't think there's much hope for change. All you have to do is go to a pro tournament. I went to the Derby in Jan and the only people watching the matches were other players.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top