Why Pool is devastated by the new Smoking Laws.

Wait a minute....all those advantages and you didn't do that voluntarily?

Why not?

Jeff Livingston

We have a family owned business. This means our entire family makes major decisions about crucial changes to our business. My brother and I had one opinion of what would happen, and my mother and second brother had another. My mother was constantly given a barrage of "consequences" by regulars saying they would never return and it frightened her. So we waited it out. We have known it was only a matter of time for non-smoking ordinances to hit St. Louis. They will hit the final 25% of country sooner rather than later. Just have to be prepared for it. I had talked to other room owners over the years and I knew we were in the demographic that it would help, not hurt.
 
Short Rant.

I keep hearing so many people claiming all the reasons pool is shrinking. Video games, casinos, no smoking laws, $2 bottled water. I think the reason many people never address is young players.

When I started target shooting, it was my dad that taught me. Not the NRA
When I started weightlifting, it was my friends that joined me in the gym. Not Muscle and Fitness Magazine
When I started rock climbing, it was workout partners that went with me. Not REI sporting goods.
When I started fishing, it was my grandma and grandpa that took me. Not a Zebco rep.
When I started hunting, it was my cousins and best friend I went with. Not Winchester Firearms.

For pool, we should not expect the APA, BCA or any other group to be the primary tool for drawing new blood.

Too many pool players come to a room by themselves, expect to find new blood to play or gamble with. For being a social game there seems to be a lot of loners in pool halls. I think a major improvement for the LONG TERM survival of pool lies in bring in GROUPS of people. Not to gamble, not to be a pro. Just to have fun. You have to start making it enjoyable for the sport to grow. The small percentage of people that will take it to the next level will be found out of the larger pack that just wanted to have fun. Pool players should bring their kids or their family or friends from OUTSIDE the pool world to just have fun sometime. I almost never see that anymore. I think its the largest missed opportunity in our sport.

When is the last time you brought a GROUP of non players to a room???? Just for fun.
End rant.
 
I keep hearing so many people claiming all the reasons pool is shrinking. Video games, casinos, no smoking laws, $2 bottled water. I think the reason many people never address is young players.

When I started target shooting, it was my dad that taught me. Not the NRA
When I started weightlifting, it was my friends that joined me in the gym. Not Muscle and Fitness Magazine
When I started rock climbing, it was workout partners that went with me. Not REI sporting goods.
When I started fishing, it was my grandma and grandpa that took me. Not a Zebco rep.
When I started hunting, it was my cousins and best friend I went with. Not Winchester Firearms.

For pool, we should not expect the APA, BCA or any other group to be the primary tool for drawing new blood.

Too many pool players come to a room by themselves, expect to find new blood to play or gamble with. For being a social game there seems to be a lot of loners in pool halls. I think a major improvement for the LONG TERM survival of pool lies in bring in GROUPS of people. Not to gamble, not to be a pro. Just to have fun. You have to start making it enjoyable for the sport to grow. The small percentage of people that will take it to the next level will be found out of the larger pack that just wanted to have fun. Pool players should bring their kids or their family or friends from OUTSIDE the pool world to just have fun sometime. I almost never see that anymore. I think its the largest missed opportunity in our sport.

When is the last time you brought a GROUP of non players to a room???? Just for fun.
End rant.

CuenCushion,
I suspect you are right about the statement about fun. What could be done for pool if every player just said Hey...Im willing this year to bring new people to the pool room who I think might want to play.....I have brainstormed advertising campaign ideas that really no room owner wants to pay for no matter how cheap they are.......so its like ok....what in world do you do?.....simply invite someone to come out and play....a very simple solution....

Just another lovely day in paradise....

336Robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
 
We have a family owned business. This means our entire family makes major decisions about crucial changes to our business. My brother and I had one opinion of what would happen, and my mother and second brother had another. My mother was constantly given a barrage of "consequences" by regulars saying they would never return and it frightened her. So we waited it out. We have known it was only a matter of time for non-smoking ordinances to hit St. Louis. They will hit the final 25% of country sooner rather than later. Just have to be prepared for it. I had talked to other room owners over the years and I knew we were in the demographic that it would help, not hurt.

I figured it was something along those lines, based on my experience with the bar owners around here.

Here's to making a bunch o' dough from us poor pool players.:)

Jeff Livingston
 
I figured it was something along those lines, based on my experience with the bar owners around here.

Here's to making a bunch o' dough from us poor pool players.:)

Jeff Livingston

Jeff,
You said a mouth full right there.....us poor pool players....seems some marketing to higher demographic groups would certainly be in order...funny guys that used to play golf, might have to learn to play pool, guys used to play pool might have to play darts, so who are the guys playing golf these days?

Just another lovely day in paradise......

336Robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
 
CuenCushion,
I suspect you are right about the statement about fun. What could be done for pool if every player just said Hey...Im willing this year to bring new people to the pool room who I think might want to play.....I have brainstormed advertising campaign ideas that really no room owner wants to pay for no matter how cheap they are.......so its like ok....what in world do you do?.....simply invite someone to come out and play....a very simple solution....

Just another lovely day in paradise....

336Robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

You are 100% right 336Robin. I have about 1200 people I know by name or sight that come in my pool room. No matter how much advertising I do or coaxing of people I know, I would never be able to compete with 1200 people inviting their friends. If they all brought one person a month for one year, and if only 10% of those people stayed and started to play pool, I would have a waiting list for tables. So far, Facebook, believe it or not, has been the best way to try this avenue for new players. The more casual the player, the more likely they are to invite people out.

About 3 years ago, a regular of ours was dying of cancer. He came in right before his death, with his wife. He had been coming in to our room since I was a kid. This was her first visit. All I remember is thinking that I never even knew he was married. It was just sad, his family never even being a part of his life that was so important. He came in 4 or 5 days a week, for hours on end, for 40 years. In his last years he spoke constantly of never having anyone to play with. Unfortunately this is more the rule than the exception. :frown:
 
The Cue

We have a family owned business. This means our entire family makes major decisions about crucial changes to our business. My brother and I had one opinion of what would happen, and my mother and second brother had another. My mother was constantly given a barrage of "consequences" by regulars saying they would never return and it frightened her. So we waited it out. We have known it was only a matter of time for non-smoking ordinances to hit St. Louis. They will hit the final 25% of country sooner rather than later. Just have to be prepared for it. I had talked to other room owners over the years and I knew we were in the demographic that it would help, not hurt.

Craig, is smoking still allowed in your business? I have not been in since last year when I moved to KC and cleaned out my car of any remnants let by the mountain man. Just curious
 
You are 100% right 336Robin. I have about 1200 people I know by name or sight that come in my pool room. No matter how much advertising I do or coaxing of people I know, I would never be able to compete with 1200 people inviting their friends. If they all brought one person a month for one year, and if only 10% of those people stayed and started to play pool, I would have a waiting list for tables. So far, Facebook, believe it or not, has been the best way to try this avenue for new players. The more casual the player, the more likely they are to invite people out.

About 3 years ago, a regular of ours was dying of cancer. He came in right before his death, with his wife. He had been coming in to our room since I was a kid. This was her first visit. All I remember is thinking that I never even knew he was married. It was just sad, his family never even being a part of his life that was so important. He came in 4 or 5 days a week, for hours on end, for 40 years. In his last years he spoke constantly of never having anyone to play with. Unfortunately this is more the rule than the exception. :frown:

Wow you have that many people coming into your pool room? Thats amazing....you are very blessed indeed.....

Just another lovely day in paradise.....

336Robin :thumbup:

aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
 
Craig, is smoking still allowed in your business? I have not been in since last year when I moved to KC and cleaned out my car of any remnants let by the mountain man. Just curious

See posts #515 and #541 in this thread.
 
Craig, is smoking still allowed in your business? I have not been in since last year when I moved to KC and cleaned out my car of any remnants let by the mountain man. Just curious

St Louis City and St. Louis County are smoke free now. Voted on in 2008 and in effect for about two years now. Parts of St. Charles County are voting on smoke free businesses now.
 
The inevitable is obvious. Recently we have taken a couple of steps toward non-smoking.

I have two bars (with pool tables) on site. They accommodate 140 and 200 people respectively. The bar that seats 200 is now non-smoking since the 1st of the year.

The billiard room is now non-smoking on Saturdays during the day and during regular events.

Much has been done to broaden the demographics and customer base. IMO, this is going to be key in making this work.
 
The inevitable is obvious. Recently we have taken a couple of steps toward non-smoking.

I have two bars (with pool tables) on site. They accommodate 140 and 200 people respectively. The bar that seats 200 is now non-smoking since the 1st of the year.

The billiard room is now non-smoking on Saturdays during the day and during regular events.

Much has been done to broaden the demographics and customer base. IMO, this is going to be key in making this work.

I will be very interested in following how this works out for you.

I say that because despite all of this back and forth that we have had with the topic, I fully believe that you will do everything you can to make your business as successful as it has been previously. And it's been very obvious that you are very successful, and your establishment looks awesome in the photo's.

I wish you the best of luck. Sincerely.
 
Table time is as important

I play in a room that charged $10.00 per hour but had a single player rate of $5.00 per hr up till 6pm. Except for myself and a few others who paid a monthly rate the place was a ghost town during the day. The owner for reasons unknown to us dropped the day rate to $1.00 per hour per stick up to 6PM for people over 21. After a short time the place was near capacity during the day with most of the people being young and unknown to us regulars(ie new customers). They didn't seem to mind going outside to smoke. Almost all were having drinks and food. Most stayed several hours or all the way to 6PM when the room again became a ghost town.
On Jan 1, the owner went back to the old rates and the place is again empty during the day. In fact, I have seen a number of people come in, inquire about the rates and leave when told they've gone back up.
I believe economics plays the biggest hand in whether our pool rooms close down. Our sport is not like others. To become even proficient at pool takes many hours, days and years of time on the table.
People pay big money for special events or concert tickets or just to see a movie. Some of these events last only a short time(1st round knockouts and such). But pool rooms survive on having a regular clientele that come in often and stay long periods of time.
I think the people who smoke are adapting to the new laws, but having an affordable pastime is hard to come by these days.
My conclusion is if the owners want people day in and day out they need to make their table rates affordable and provide good food at reasonable prices in a clean environment. The smokers will keep coming if these conditions are met.
 
I play in a room that charged $10.00 per hour but had a single player rate of $5.00 per hr up till 6pm. Except for myself and a few others who paid a monthly rate the place was a ghost town during the day. The owner for reasons unknown to us dropped the day rate to $1.00 per hour per stick up to 6PM for people over 21. After a short time the place was near capacity during the day with most of the people being young and unknown to us regulars(ie new customers). They didn't seem to mind going outside to smoke. Almost all were having drinks and food. Most stayed several hours or all the way to 6PM when the room again became a ghost town.
On Jan 1, the owner went back to the old rates and the place is again empty during the day. In fact, I have seen a number of people come in, inquire about the rates and leave when told they've gone back up.
I believe economics plays the biggest hand in whether our pool rooms close down. Our sport is not like others. To become even proficient at pool takes many hours, days and years of time on the table.
People pay big money for special events or concert tickets or just to see a movie. Some of these events last only a short time(1st round knockouts and such). But pool rooms survive on having a regular clientele that come in often and stay long periods of time.
I think the people who smoke are adapting to the new laws, but having an affordable pastime is hard to come by these days.
My conclusion is if the owners want people day in and day out they need to make their table rates affordable and provide good food at reasonable prices in a clean environment. The smokers will keep coming if these conditions are met.

Your points have a lot of merit. I bought a home table because of hourly rates. I practice alone a lot and it was killing me to pay the hourly rates for a table for as many hours a day as I wanted to hit balls. I've had my table for about 5 1/2 years now and it has probably paid for itself three times over (if you include gas money, food, drinks, etc, spent at the poolhall or getting to it).

If my local (??? ten miles one way to get there) poolhall would have charged me $1-an-hour during the day, I probably would still be going there regularly to practice and be spending $$$ on food & drinks.

Maniac (home table: never a single regret)
 
The inevitable is obvious. Recently we have taken a couple of steps toward non-smoking.

I have two bars (with pool tables) on site. They accommodate 140 and 200 people respectively. The bar that seats 200 is now non-smoking since the 1st of the year.

The billiard room is now non-smoking on Saturdays during the day and during regular events.

Much has been done to broaden the demographics and customer base. IMO, this is going to be key in making this work.

If the original post rings true, food and beverage sales will increase and pool revenues will decline in the non-smoking bar. I will know soon enough. Either way, it doesn't really matter. I have every intention of keeping that bar non-smoking permanently.
 
Last edited:
This thread is about what the new smoking laws mean to pool. This thread is not a rant about who has got what rights and the heavy hand of government.

The new smoking laws are a catastrophic blow and a dagger through the heart of the business of pocket billiards. How can this be? Many restaurants and bars that have rid themselves of smoking have actually seen their sales recover and increase. If this is true then this must also extrapolate to poolrooms. It doesn’t. We have lost more than 70% of our poolrooms.

The answer sits in the governments demographic reports on smokers. Its eye opening and easy to see why some businesses benefit and others are destroyed.

1. The more educated an individual is, the less likely he/she smokes. A person with a mere high school education is 8X more like to smoke than a person with a college education beyond a bachelor degree.
2. In parallel, the higher a person’s income and net worth is, the less likely a person smokes. At the same time, the closer a person’s income approaches the poverty line, the more likely a person smokes.
3. Looking at a graph of smokers from the ages of 18 to 80, the closer a person is to the age of 18, the more likely the person smokes.

Who is our clientele? Take a look at the big picture. When a restaurant disallows smoking, and its customer base is from the 2nd and 3rd tier (5 tiers) of the demographic scale, smokers are replaced with many more non-smokers. This is because the smoker to non-smoker ratio heavily favors the non-smokers in this demographic.

The business of pool draws heaviest from the lowest fifth of the demographic scale. The highest percentage of smokers is in this group. Pool appeals to this group and our poolrooms are built to serve this group. Tell them that they can’t smoke in a poolroom and who replaces them? The smoker to non-smoker ratio in this demographic is much different than the tiers above them.

The smoking laws are here to stay and they will only become more stringent. This is very bad news for pool. Pool’s only hope is to break out of its current demographic. It has to be able to compete with the recreational options afforded by the higher demographic groups. This can only happen if our great game becomes more and different than what it is. Right now, it does not compete well.

I personally dont miss the days of coming home at 6am after an all night session stinking of smoke. Its also ruff on the eyes after a long session.
 
The inevitable is obvious. Recently we have taken a couple of steps toward non-smoking.

I have two bars (with pool tables) on site. They accommodate 140 and 200 people respectively. The bar that seats 200 is now non-smoking since the 1st of the year.

The billiard room is now non-smoking on Saturdays during the day and during regular events.

Much has been done to broaden the demographics and customer base. IMO, this is going to be key in making this work.

18 months have passed. The 2 tables pictured below were the most popular tables in the place (26 tables). Within 1 week of going non-smoking in that bar, they became the least popular tables in the entire place. After a year and a half, it has not improved. I do not care to talk about bar sales in the non-smoking bar but I will say that it is not good.

The consolation is that much of the business just moved to the smoking bar and not surprisingly, the non-smokers moved right into the smoking bar with them. So there really has been no loss of business.

I still am steadfast: I am not going back. The one bar is going to remain non-smoking. This has got to get figured out before the government drops the next hammer. I am determined.
 

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18 months have passed. The 2 tables pictured below were the most popular tables in the place (26 tables). Within 1 week of going non-smoking in that bar, they became the least popular tables in the entire place. After a year and a half, it has not improved. I do not care to talk about bar sales in the non-smoking bar but I will say that it is not good.

The consolation is that much of the business just moved to the smoking bar and not surprisingly, the non-smokers moved right into the smoking bar with them. So there really has been no loss of business.

I still am steadfast: I am not going back. The one bar is going to remain non-smoking. This has got to get figured out before the government drops the next hammer. I am determined.

Paul,
I sent you a pm. I think I've worked out an angle and have a lot of it typed out and will send it to you if you want it. Just email me at that address.
 
Observation Only: I really can't speak for larger towns or communities. But, here, in rural America, one of hundreds of thousands of small towns, ours has less than 500 people living in it and the biggest draw our little community has is it's local American Legion, the center of attention and thee place to be since the new place was built in the mid to late 1970's. The place of course was honored to the many men and women who died for our freedom's, which includes freedom of speech and choice. When the smoking ban went into effect, in which the Legion Commander (who does not smoke) pushed very hard against the smoking ban as again, government proposed taking away a freedom of speech and choice, he finally gave in due to government pressure which was " we the people " as a percentage of people in the area was going to turn him into going against the new banned smoking law. Which really caught me by surprise was that the people who were making the most noise against our little Legion Club were people that I only saw at the Legion ever, was when there was a free meal from a funeral or wedding dance. Never and I mean Never, saw these people once at the legion to support our Legion Club in any way, shape or form during normal open hours. Of course, when the smoking folks said the heck with it and went out of town purchasing off sale and having get togethers in their garages (where smoking was still legal). Every once in awhile, the wife and myself go to the parties and have a grand time as no one is at our local legion club anymore and then to see some of the people who made such a stink about smoking at the legion club are now at the garage parties, because that's where the people are!!! Two people lost their jobs at the legion and times that by hundreds of thousands of little towns. I've asked a few locals if they were now out to close garage parties, yes, mean of course, but, truthful. Their answer is that they don't go to the legion for the next excuse. What people don't really get, is the choice of American business owners didn't have a right of choice to keep their business as a smoking facility or a non smoking facility. The biggest group to have a lobby towards non smoking were our casinos that are owned by the native American's and I respect their business sense as tons of smokers head to their casino. The largest thing that was allowed was " what's next ", oh yeah, can't smoke in your city, then what, not on your property, then not in your house or apartment, then what, and then what. The issue is that our freedom of speech and freedom are being taken away. Yes, the response is our medical profession costs have gone up and tobacco companies has paid thousands of dollars to our states for these costs. Why didn't people get the choice to accept payment themselves from the tobacco companies, then sign off that they will have to pay themselves for tobacco related medical costs. Each smoker would have received about $ 225,000 and then could have made the choice themselves. I could care less if a place is smoking or non smoking if it was the choice of the business or the people. Since business has to report quarterly, their sales to the government, why not have had smoking in week one and two of the month and non smoking in week three and four of the month before blanking their business all together?? Those reports would have been helpful to the business owners of making the choice to them instead of laying off people. Of course, I am only seeing what happens in rural communities, but, just my observation what has happened around here in a 30 mile area of small towns. I myself, run every two weeks to the bigger towns and get groceries, medical supplies and yes cigarettes for three veterans who can can't get out anymore as I still want to honor and appreciate the people who lived through ghastly times in protecting our supposedly freedom of speech and choice. I'm not arguing with anyone's opinion and even if someone lays out all the facts and statistics, these people put themselves in a position to fight for my rights and to this day, once year, on the 4th of July, Gerald "Bud" Olson who was a Iwa Jima Veteran gets a visit to his grave by me and I crack a " Bud Light " take a few swigs, light up a Pall Mall, take a few puffs, put the lit cig in the hole of the bent up tab of the beer can, set it on his grave marker, step back and salute my old neighbor and friend and believer in his part for my freedom.
Sorry to ramble and go on, but, really.......... what's next. Really, what are we going to allow next? Legal dope smoking?, oh...... guess it's in the works........
 
St Louis City and St. Louis County are smoke free now. Voted on in 2008 and in effect for about two years now. Parts of St. Charles County are voting on smoke free businesses now.

So much for the myth that Non-Smoking will kill a pool room's business.

JoeyA
 
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