Why Pool is not a major sport.
- Thread starter jimM
- Start date
How did they try it.
It is a good idea and possibly the only idea that will work. Just because it wasn't done then, doesn't mean it can't be done. There has to be a million factors involved. I don't know how they tried it or what they were asking for the franchise, so I can't comment on it. If someone knows, please respond.
Just think, The New York Sticks.
It is a good idea and possibly the only idea that will work. Just because it wasn't done then, doesn't mean it can't be done. There has to be a million factors involved. I don't know how they tried it or what they were asking for the franchise, so I can't comment on it. If someone knows, please respond.
Just think, The New York Sticks.
I remember when they tried to do this. It was a good idea. I think it could work now on a limited basis. I like it. I know that everyone talks about doing something good for the game. Maybe this could be it. How about putting together 5 player teams from metro areas. It could start off small with 4 team divisions. i.e. the Kansas City area team, St. Joseph team, St. Louis team, Topeka or where ever. They would play in a division based on local geography. Every team plays each other once. The teams could be made up of top local talent. The games played, rules, etc would have to be decided. The playoffs would be between the division winners say at the BCAPL nationals or DCC or some other event. The teams would be responsible for their own expenses at first. This would be for the love of the game. Down the road there could be prize money, sponsorship, etc. But first put together a league. It sounds like it could be fun.
I'm pretty sure that I could put together a team from the KC area. It might be fun. If anyone else would be interested, let's see if we could come up with ideas, rules, etc and make it work.
I think the venue has a lot to do with the lack of pool popularity. I know I used to have a table at home. I played on it at week nights to practice, had brothers and friends come over on the weekends for long hours of "friendly" 14.1 and 1 pocket competitions, and the kids could play all they wanted during afternoons, and they did it alot.
Well things change, so at a point I had to sell the table, so I go for like 8 years without picking up my cue, because I don't want to hang out in the bars playing on poorly maintained tables with a bunch of people who are stoned, don't know the rules, and cannot play. The kids that used to play, (and a few of em were getting pretty descent), started hanging out on corners or sneakin off in the woods to do "whatever", and few of them have not shot pool in any amount since.
I think alot of it is there is just no place to play for many people. I am back playing, but I try to get my practice in earlier in the afternoons before the room gets busy, and even at that kids under 18 can't even get in.
So don't get me wrong, I'm not a fuddy dud or religeous fanatic, I like a shot of bourbon at times to relax and enjoy the game and I frequently partake. The point I'm trying to make is, if pool is to grow it needs to be accesible, and in an environment anybody can feel comfortable participating in. A lot of people will just not take their family to the local bar, or pool hall for a family night.
Well things change, so at a point I had to sell the table, so I go for like 8 years without picking up my cue, because I don't want to hang out in the bars playing on poorly maintained tables with a bunch of people who are stoned, don't know the rules, and cannot play. The kids that used to play, (and a few of em were getting pretty descent), started hanging out on corners or sneakin off in the woods to do "whatever", and few of them have not shot pool in any amount since.
I think alot of it is there is just no place to play for many people. I am back playing, but I try to get my practice in earlier in the afternoons before the room gets busy, and even at that kids under 18 can't even get in.
So don't get me wrong, I'm not a fuddy dud or religeous fanatic, I like a shot of bourbon at times to relax and enjoy the game and I frequently partake. The point I'm trying to make is, if pool is to grow it needs to be accesible, and in an environment anybody can feel comfortable participating in. A lot of people will just not take their family to the local bar, or pool hall for a family night.
Yes, it would be fun, and getting a 5 player team from New York would be somewhat easy, but having them pay their own expenses would not be, so that is probably the first hurdle, trying to get some support.
Just to start it would probably have to be a grass roots effort. The teams would be free to get any sponsorship that they could of course. There would be a lot of logistics to work out but the initial city "league" would have to be comprised of team members that are willing to share some of the expenses. It would be great to have sponsors but probably not very realistic in the beginning. It would be similar to the US Amateur event the APA puts on each year. It's not about the money but about the love of the game, competition, and the prestige that would go along with winning the Championship!
It's sooooooooo difficult for a business to rely on pool players to make their business plan work , business has to go where the market is, as we know that is the recreational players, NOT pool players. Their untapped demographic makeup is HUGE compared to pool players.
You'd have to think that the worldpokertour did NOT base their business plan on pro poker players.
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It could be possible.
We should keep exploring this. It could be doable if more people from other cities are interested.
We should keep exploring this. It could be doable if more people from other cities are interested.
I think for a successful room there has to be a combination of pool and recreational players. Now, I'm not talking about degenerate deadbeats but actual players that are trying to get better. The recreational players are usually the ones that buy the new cues, accessories, spend money on league, table time, food, etc. But the players can be the backbone, because they were once recreational players themselves and they will always be there. Also, it gives the recreational players that want to be more serious an avenue to learn and jump up to the "pool player" level.
I think that is could be very doable. And with the right pieces in place, I could see an organization such as BCAPL or APA offering forms of sponsorship. The "CSI" (hint, hint Mark
) or "APA" Pro league. (Sorry jumping ahead of myself :smileI think the beginning would need to be top amateurs that have the desire and disposable income to compete. Eventually, each city might run a tournament with the top 6 making the team. It could be a sort of tryouts. The possibilities are endless.
The first step would be to come up with rules and format. Then put together a few teams from different areas that are located geographically convenient, so that costs aren't too prohibitive. There could be an eastern, central, western divisions. Or southeast, northeast, northwest, etc. For example, I could see that teams of the area's top players (amateurs, pros, etc.) could come from up to say 4 hours away. In my area, that would include KC, St. Louis, Omaha, Des Moines, Tulsa, Topeka, Wichita, Columbia, Lincoln, etc. Teams from these areas could make up the Central division. Eventually, following the NFL or Baseball model. Just throwing some ideas out.
Darryl
agree
I agree with everything so far. This is a far out idea, but what if there was a new type of game. Like four players rotating shots in 10 ball on each side. Then you would have the baseball idea where each player that bats has different abilities and can be a weak link or a star. Also, you would be able to substitute a player or two if the starters aren't producing. It would make for a more interesting visual game. Also, you wouldn't have to have more than one game as the focus. Just an idea. And they would really have to work as a team.
I think that is could be very doable. And with the right pieces in place, I could see an organization such as BCAPL or APA offering forms of sponsorship. The "CSI" (hint, hint Mark
I think the beginning would need to be top amateurs that have the desire and disposable income to compete. Eventually, each city might run a tournament with the top 6 making the team. It could be a sort of tryouts. The possibilities are endless.
The first step would be to come up with rules and format. Then put together a few teams from different areas that are located geographically convenient, so that costs aren't too prohibitive. There could be an eastern, central, western divisions. Or southeast, northeast, northwest, etc. For example, I could see that teams of the area's top players (amateurs, pros, etc.) could come from up to say 4 hours away. In my area, that would include KC, St. Louis, Omaha, Des Moines, Tulsa, Topeka, Wichita, Columbia, Lincoln, etc. Teams from these areas could make up the Central division. Eventually, following the NFL or Baseball model. Just throwing some ideas out.
Darryl
I agree with everything so far. This is a far out idea, but what if there was a new type of game. Like four players rotating shots in 10 ball on each side. Then you would have the baseball idea where each player that bats has different abilities and can be a weak link or a star. Also, you would be able to substitute a player or two if the starters aren't producing. It would make for a more interesting visual game. Also, you wouldn't have to have more than one game as the focus. Just an idea. And they would really have to work as a team.
The man posting this thread got it right....
Yep. That's why NFL, MLB, NBA etc. are called "spectator sports," because the vast majority of spectators might have played but are not even remotely close to being good enough to be on tv. Anyone who has ever run a table could beat any other guy on earth during the game he ran out. And don't forget the fact that you can't watch pool in Texas Stadium.
~another main reason? I don't have to shower when I get home from a football game. Thanks Marlboro man... you killed the manliest sport I know. In economics, the science of decision-making and scarcity, it COSTS you a shower and maybe some antihistamines to watch pool in person, even though it might be free and just down the street..... I saw a player's wife come to a tournament in Olathe wearing a mask. I feel ya sister.... ESPN is getting better though, at least we have that!
(yes, I am bracing for a shellacking from the smokers.... go ahead guys, show me the logic of having a no-peeing section in the swimmin' pool...)
Yep. That's why NFL, MLB, NBA etc. are called "spectator sports," because the vast majority of spectators might have played but are not even remotely close to being good enough to be on tv. Anyone who has ever run a table could beat any other guy on earth during the game he ran out. And don't forget the fact that you can't watch pool in Texas Stadium.
~another main reason? I don't have to shower when I get home from a football game. Thanks Marlboro man... you killed the manliest sport I know. In economics, the science of decision-making and scarcity, it COSTS you a shower and maybe some antihistamines to watch pool in person, even though it might be free and just down the street..... I saw a player's wife come to a tournament in Olathe wearing a mask. I feel ya sister.... ESPN is getting better though, at least we have that!
(yes, I am bracing for a shellacking from the smokers.... go ahead guys, show me the logic of having a no-peeing section in the swimmin' pool...)
That's what it takes, outside the box thinking. How about following a format such as the Davis cup in Tennis? Have a match of 9 ball, 8 ball, 10 ball, one pocket, and banks? (possibly straight pool) Short races only one player from each team can play once. Each discipline is worth a point. Winner is the first to 3 points. Play out all games for tie break/total points down the road.
interesting
Interesting. It would be harder to video if they are going on at the same time, but if short, they could be done in 2 hours. That is why I proposed the all players in one game because in football, basketball, and baseball, most games only last 2 hours tops. It would have to be something that people could watch in one sitting or else it could become a burden. I also think that they could be videoed and played later at first and could be promoted in the cities. I think there could be a lot of rivalry produced just because it is two cities. Like New York and Philadelphia. It would just follow football and baseball as far as rivalry. Also, if there is a woman in the city that is good enough to be on the team, more power to her.
Ah, OK, if not all four players playing the same game, what about a race to 12 broken into four parts where the players change in each segment? That way the game can shift over and back like basketball. The winner of each segment has to put up the next player first.
Interesting. It would be harder to video if they are going on at the same time, but if short, they could be done in 2 hours. That is why I proposed the all players in one game because in football, basketball, and baseball, most games only last 2 hours tops. It would have to be something that people could watch in one sitting or else it could become a burden. I also think that they could be videoed and played later at first and could be promoted in the cities. I think there could be a lot of rivalry produced just because it is two cities. Like New York and Philadelphia. It would just follow football and baseball as far as rivalry. Also, if there is a woman in the city that is good enough to be on the team, more power to her.
Ah, OK, if not all four players playing the same game, what about a race to 12 broken into four parts where the players change in each segment? That way the game can shift over and back like basketball. The winner of each segment has to put up the next player first.
one more possibility
Let me add one more possibility for the game.
Race to 12. 4 active players on each side. Each game the players can be changed. Winner of each game puts up player of next game first. There can be two substitutions and the substituted players will be playing with the games of the player they replaced. This will make for a lot of strategy by the coach and will give a lot of room for the spectators to agree or criticize. The players can play at anytime during the match, they just can't play more than 3 games total.
Let me add one more possibility for the game.
Race to 12. 4 active players on each side. Each game the players can be changed. Winner of each game puts up player of next game first. There can be two substitutions and the substituted players will be playing with the games of the player they replaced. This will make for a lot of strategy by the coach and will give a lot of room for the spectators to agree or criticize. The players can play at anytime during the match, they just can't play more than 3 games total.
You need Fans in the stands
“Fans“…where are they? I’m sure all those leagues know where, who and how to contact them. I hear there are millions and millions of participants out there.
Probably in the same demographic groups as other major sports. Why won’t they come out and participate in pool today as a fan?
There’s nothing for them, only “pool players” are really allowed to be fans today. “Pool players” know the fan etiquette that is generally accepted across the country.
“Fans” just want to enjoy a social get together where a sporting event has broken out. “Fans” want to show enthusiasm, passion and their knowledge of the sport and maybe eat/drink. “Fans” want to do the things they can’t do at home, the office etc., they want to have a fun, social, vocal experience.
Nowhere in pool today in this country are “fans” having fun. “Pool players” are having a blast though, sweating matches, gambling and talking the talk.
So my conclusion, the US pool world needs to accept the “Fan” as is and give them want they want or they will continue to go where they can get the “Fan” experience they so desire. Also I believe pool has the potential to give the fan that unique personal up close to the player/action experience with the etiquette of a Mosconi cup.
Impeded growth…so many others on this forum have pointed out the numerous and continuing aspects of this issue. No governing body, my league is better than yours, shady reputation, dumping (the turd on the pool table that has to be cleaned up sooner or later), scheduling conflicts, payouts, on and on.
My conclusion, to move forward a consensus must be reached, a table with enough chairs to accommodate all interested parties to solve the issues to move the paradigm from “mine” to “ours”. I believe it’s plain and simple if you want pool to more than it is today your going to have to work together. And the you I speak of isn’t me I’m just a banger and a big “Fan“.
“Fans“…where are they? I’m sure all those leagues know where, who and how to contact them. I hear there are millions and millions of participants out there.
Probably in the same demographic groups as other major sports. Why won’t they come out and participate in pool today as a fan?
There’s nothing for them, only “pool players” are really allowed to be fans today. “Pool players” know the fan etiquette that is generally accepted across the country.
“Fans” just want to enjoy a social get together where a sporting event has broken out. “Fans” want to show enthusiasm, passion and their knowledge of the sport and maybe eat/drink. “Fans” want to do the things they can’t do at home, the office etc., they want to have a fun, social, vocal experience.
Nowhere in pool today in this country are “fans” having fun. “Pool players” are having a blast though, sweating matches, gambling and talking the talk.
So my conclusion, the US pool world needs to accept the “Fan” as is and give them want they want or they will continue to go where they can get the “Fan” experience they so desire. Also I believe pool has the potential to give the fan that unique personal up close to the player/action experience with the etiquette of a Mosconi cup.
Impeded growth…so many others on this forum have pointed out the numerous and continuing aspects of this issue. No governing body, my league is better than yours, shady reputation, dumping (the turd on the pool table that has to be cleaned up sooner or later), scheduling conflicts, payouts, on and on.
My conclusion, to move forward a consensus must be reached, a table with enough chairs to accommodate all interested parties to solve the issues to move the paradigm from “mine” to “ours”. I believe it’s plain and simple if you want pool to more than it is today your going to have to work together. And the you I speak of isn’t me I’m just a banger and a big “Fan“.
A lot of things changed during the last two decades. What happened in Europe reflects worldwide at some level:
When most of us amateur players started playing back then, there was no internet, no widespread info, just the best players to watch.
We fell in love with the game by watching guys like Oliver Ortmann, Ralf Souquet, Thomas Engert and whatever tape fell in our hands about the feared "semigods" across the atlantic like Nick Varner, Mike Sigel, Jim Rempe ,etc.
Most of us studied the game at professional level even though we never intented to make a living out of it. We just played in order to pursue excellence and perform shots like the pros we admired!
We have spent money on this game we will never collect back just to have the pleasure to compete against champions and give our best, even pull out victories over them some times!
The pros were protected by being placed accordingly to the brackets so they would only meet at the later stages of a tournament. This led to the same persons repeated at the winning ceromonies and after time when most of us other players could not maintain our expenses without getting anything back participations decreased more and more...
In order to overcome this problem the people in charge decided to alter the rules of the game (for e.g. alternate break) to the extent that would allow surprises to happen. This boosted participations again and the sport managed to survive.
In long term the better players survived but the game would never be the same again..
Middle range level has risen dramatically due to access to valuable info, champions are not so protected anymore and not always the better player wins..
Unlike other sports, unlike Snooker you can meet with a world champion at a tournament just by paying your entrance fee.
But we forgot: Petros and every Petros has not earned the right to play against Earl Strickland!!!
You do not just go and play with Ronnie O'Sullivan at Snooker even if you are King of Saudi Arabia and have all the money in the world!!!
-Top separate premier leagues should be formed in USA, Europe, Asia by the federations with support from the industry
-Only the top players should play in those leagues, only to each other.
-They should receive salary by entering such a league, by contract which will clarify their rights (profits, benefits) and obligations (drug free, bet free, charity apearances for promotion of the sport, behaviour etc..)
-Rules should return to Texas express era + time per shot to ensure victory only for the best!!! 9ball remains the undisputed tv king for Pool.
-Premier league players should be represented and a manager should advise constantly how they appear/behave and how the events should be covered/advertised!!!
-Sponsors will be approachead only with the highest quality of material this way, and the title of the world championship should be claimed every year by the players with the top results from every league. This also clarifies instantly who participates in Mosconi cup teams and an Asian team should be part of this too!!!
This will create a true higher class of players which everybody else will look up to!!! Young people will have again Pool legends to admire by this distance!!!
The rest of us will have to struggle for entering such a league. Playing in amateur leagues with appropiate prices and waiting to be invited by those leagues by people who will be watching!!
That way players will not stop (after a few years of frustation...) spending money on the sport since they will have a true goal!!!
This could be the first series of measures that could really promote Pool.
The way Mosconi cup is addressed will never give Pool the oportunity to reach the enormous potential it has worldwide...
Federations and the Industry will have to change their philosophy and look beyond just tomorrow...
Thanks again for this thread, hope this will lead the right ears into consideration.
Petros
When most of us amateur players started playing back then, there was no internet, no widespread info, just the best players to watch.
We fell in love with the game by watching guys like Oliver Ortmann, Ralf Souquet, Thomas Engert and whatever tape fell in our hands about the feared "semigods" across the atlantic like Nick Varner, Mike Sigel, Jim Rempe ,etc.
Most of us studied the game at professional level even though we never intented to make a living out of it. We just played in order to pursue excellence and perform shots like the pros we admired!
We have spent money on this game we will never collect back just to have the pleasure to compete against champions and give our best, even pull out victories over them some times!
The pros were protected by being placed accordingly to the brackets so they would only meet at the later stages of a tournament. This led to the same persons repeated at the winning ceromonies and after time when most of us other players could not maintain our expenses without getting anything back participations decreased more and more...
In order to overcome this problem the people in charge decided to alter the rules of the game (for e.g. alternate break) to the extent that would allow surprises to happen. This boosted participations again and the sport managed to survive.
In long term the better players survived but the game would never be the same again..
Middle range level has risen dramatically due to access to valuable info, champions are not so protected anymore and not always the better player wins..
Unlike other sports, unlike Snooker you can meet with a world champion at a tournament just by paying your entrance fee.
But we forgot: Petros and every Petros has not earned the right to play against Earl Strickland!!!
You do not just go and play with Ronnie O'Sullivan at Snooker even if you are King of Saudi Arabia and have all the money in the world!!!
-Top separate premier leagues should be formed in USA, Europe, Asia by the federations with support from the industry
-Only the top players should play in those leagues, only to each other.
-They should receive salary by entering such a league, by contract which will clarify their rights (profits, benefits) and obligations (drug free, bet free, charity apearances for promotion of the sport, behaviour etc..)
-Rules should return to Texas express era + time per shot to ensure victory only for the best!!! 9ball remains the undisputed tv king for Pool.
-Premier league players should be represented and a manager should advise constantly how they appear/behave and how the events should be covered/advertised!!!
-Sponsors will be approachead only with the highest quality of material this way, and the title of the world championship should be claimed every year by the players with the top results from every league. This also clarifies instantly who participates in Mosconi cup teams and an Asian team should be part of this too!!!
This will create a true higher class of players which everybody else will look up to!!! Young people will have again Pool legends to admire by this distance!!!
The rest of us will have to struggle for entering such a league. Playing in amateur leagues with appropiate prices and waiting to be invited by those leagues by people who will be watching!!
That way players will not stop (after a few years of frustation...) spending money on the sport since they will have a true goal!!!
This could be the first series of measures that could really promote Pool.
The way Mosconi cup is addressed will never give Pool the oportunity to reach the enormous potential it has worldwide...
Federations and the Industry will have to change their philosophy and look beyond just tomorrow...
Thanks again for this thread, hope this will lead the right ears into consideration.
Petros
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Let TAR be the TD and pay them the 2000-4000$ and they can provide a free stream. PPV is just another few dollars going somewhere other than to players. It is expensive to buy the equipment, travel etc... but everything seems to take money out of the game.
That would be an interesting twist, I like it. Keep it to one table for streaming or hopefully TV :thumbup: purposes. I'm guessing that the ones that came up with the this concept were thinking the same thing. If it actually developed into a pro league such as in soccer or other sports, then that would be the ultimate goal. There would be big hurdles such as funding, room for spectators, etc, etc, etc. I could see it now. The hated New York sticks spending hundreds of dollars for their players where here in KC, we could only spend one or two hundred. We may need a salary cap :smile: