Will Chinese Cue production effect the Custom Cue Market in the near future or not?

[RRfireblade]

20+ years is how i know what i know. if you do enough research, find the right vendors, and describe what you want to do they will point in the direction to do it. most CNC vendors will help you find the right machine, tool(s), and programming needed to perform this. it can be done easily and i've programmed many-a-code in many different areas of production and materials to do just this thing..............and yea one word was all you're question needed....YES.

skins ------------- knows there are very few things that can't be done......

Hmm, pretty weak side step. That was probably way more words than you needed to actually answer my simple question directly. I hope your better at your job than dodging questins.

So to that I say only this ,

I've got 25 years in the business so I say Your wrong and it's because I say so.

Nani Nani Boo Boo




Jay - - -- - knows when to bring a gun to a knife fight.

 

[skins]

Hmm, pretty weak side step. That was probably way more words than you needed to actually answer my simple question directly. I hope your better at your job than dodging questins.

So to that I say only this ,

I've got 25 years in the business so I say Your wrong and it's because I say so.

Nani Nani Boo Boo




Jay - - -- - knows when to bring a gun to a knife fight.

my reputation is my gun......and ya know maybe you're right....too many words....but then again i've been told i'm long winded.......definately not side stepping.......25 years experience and you KNOW i'm wrong....well some would call those years as sheltered.........

skins ----------- likes to side step at weddings..........

 

[ShootingArts]

cutting to the chase

The point of this thread was that Chinese production using this machinery is as good as any used here, and their programers are also equal. The opinions I hoped for were how will this effect the Custom Cue Market in this country. The fact that they have the ability, and understand the methods necassary to produce high quality products, how long will it be before these products start showing up here in this country and what effect will it have.

I

Craig,

In my opinion the bottom line is that nobody in the world is going to mass produce in high volume cues of the quality you can make. The skilled people that care that much about what they are making aren't to be had by the hundreds and a boss can't stand over every worker all of the time.

Considering the other option, if someone considered investing the money into machinery to make a top quality cue solely by machine, they would not make cues because the same investment in machinery could make far more profit in other areas.

Many a niche market exists because there isn't enough profit in it to interest investors. That is almost certainly to be the case with top quality custom cues from china. We may see a trickle but the market isn't big enough or profitable enough to tempt investors on any massive scale. We have nothing to fear from a trickle.

Hu

 

[RRfireblade]

.....definately not side stepping................

Still no answer to the question tho , well done once again.

I'll let you'all have the sand box to yourselves now.


Nighty night.




Jay ------ knows where the unsubscribe button is and how to use it.

 

[manwon]

Craig,

In my opinion the bottom line is that nobody in the world is going to mass produce in high volume cues of the quality you can make. The skilled people that care that much about what they are making aren't to be had by the hundreds and a boss can't stand over every worker all of the time.

Considering the other option, if someone considered investing the money into machinery to make a top quality cue solely by machine, they would not make cues because the same investment in machinery could make far more profit in other areas.

Many a niche market exists because there isn't enough profit in it to interest investors. That is almost certainly to be the case with top quality custom cues from china. We may see a trickle but the market isn't big enough or profitable enough to tempt investors on any massive scale. We have nothing to fear from a trickle.

Hu

Thanks Hu, and I totally agree with you. My intentions when I started this thread was to see if my thoughts were sound. I tried to play the devils advocate and look at things from the other side which only proved to me that my opinion and thoughts are sound. While I said in the beginning that I thought about buying some CNC controled machinery, I would doubt that I ever really would. I even current finish taper my shafts by hand, because I like finished product better.

Thanks for posting Hu!!

 

[JB Cases]

I guess you mean that there is no reason to believe that there wouldn't be individual ... In other words we would see individual Chinese cue makers which would most likely "stay in their own marked" ?

I simply do not see this happen. If a cue maker in China is producing a cue, I would bet you anything that the marked forces would rule and he would offer the cue to the highest bidder, where ever that may be...

N

Right, that is what I meant. No reason to believe that eventually there won't be "Custom" cue makers in China.

And of course they will sell their cues to whomever wants to buy them. I just think that they probably won't go out of their way trying to break into the American cue market as by the time that the climate is such in China to support a custom cue maker then they will likely have enough business in China to meet their ability to supply.

One thing that folks don't often understand is that China's domestic consumption will one day dwarf ours. In fact this is one of the things that people fear. There are plenty of high end businesses and brands that are Chinese and serve the Chinese market right now. And plenty of customers to support it.

I just picked up the 3rd Edition Blue Book of Cues. Holy Lathes Batman! I can't believe the number of American cuemakers that I have never heard of.

I highly doubt that the odd Chinese custom cuemaker will be able to grab much market share of American custom cue purchasing business. As an example I offer Germany's Michael Vollmer and Arthur Cues. Both of these makers are as good as any other cue maker on earth and yet they are not sought after in the USA. Their cues are rarely mentioned and when offered for sale they don't attract a lot of competitive offers. So if two of the greatest cue makers from a nation known for quality can't get into the American wallet and consciousness then what chance does a Chinese custom cuemaker stand. Not to mention the obvious language, distance, and timezone barriers.

Production cues however may have some effect on the sales of some mid-range custom cue makers. A custom cue maker can only reach so many people and take so many orders. A lot less if they are a one man operation. So when faced with the choice of a $500 cue from a local maker or a nicely inlaid (with more inlays) cue from a known brand (whether domestic or foreign production) they may go for the production cue more and more often for immediate gratification.

 

[Newton]

John, I agree with you're evaluation.
You're down there so I guess you should know.

But as we have previously discussed, the production cues have already made a impact and I guess would continue to do so.

I have noted that many of the high end US cues seems to have a large and power full buyer group in Asia, specially Japan. Do you see this change ?
Is it the US flavor of cues which is important or is it just the designs together with exclusive wood which counts? In case it's not because it's US made, I guess much of the exclusive materials is available also for the Chinese manufacturers as well....

It would be interesting to see how this evolves and I guess only time would tell.

N

 

[bandido]

The only exclusive material that a custom cuemaker has are the ones he processes himself. Other than that, self- processed/picked and aged materials, will be the material selection and construction process for the choice materials in relation to the customers specs. These should be what will keep the demarkation line between mass produced and custom cues.

Japan is the #1 consumer of custom cues and there used to be a solid following for US-made customs. But what normally happens to "proper-construction-system" when demand increases, unfortunately, didn't spare the custom cue market. It doesn't matter if its American-made, Filipino-made or Chinese-made. A well planned, well-made cue always will get a following no matter what the economic trend is.

Quite unfortunate too for the US custom cuemaker is the strict ivory law implementation of the US FWS. The Japanese/Asian/European custom cue buyer cannot send his ivory-laden cue back to the US maker for repairs or upgrade.

Please don't belittle the quality of the Chinese-made cues. What happens to them there in America also happens to American cues here in Asia. Same problems with climate change effect but the difference is that US-made custom cues are a lot more expensive.

To answer the original question based on the amount of repairwork I get from Japan/other Asian countries on different brands of custom cues, yes the time will come.

 

[Newton]

The only exclusive material that a custom cuemaker has are the ones he processes himself. Other than that, self- processed/picked and aged materials, will be the material selection and construction process for the choice materials in relation to the customers specs. These should be what will keep the demarkation line between mass produced and custom cues.

Japan is the #1 consumer of custom cues and there used to be a solid following for US-made customs. But what normally happens to "proper-construction-system" when demand increases, unfortunately, didn't spare the custom cue market. It doesn't matter if its American-made, Filipino-made or Chinese-made. A well planned, well-made cue always will get a following no matter what the economic trend is.

Quite unfortunate too for the US custom cuemaker is the strict ivory law implementation of the US FWS. The Japanese/Asian/European custom cue buyer cannot send his ivory-laden cue back to the US maker for repairs or upgrade.

Please don't belittle the quality of the Chinese-made cues. What happens to them there in America also happens to American cues here in Asia. Same problems with climate change effect but the difference is that US-made custom cues are a lot more expensive.

To answer the original question based on the amount of repairwork I get from Japan/other Asian countries on different brands of custom cues, yes the time will come.

Good post.

N

 

[ShootingArts]

actually an unintentional benefit

Quite unfortunate too for the US custom cuemaker is the strict ivory law implementation of the US FWS. The Japanese/Asian/European custom cue buyer cannot send his ivory-laden cue back to the US maker for repairs or upgrade.

Edwin,

The strict ivory law is actually an unintentional benefit for US cue makers. There is no shortage of quality well dried ivory in the US nor will there be for the foreseeable future. However what CITES unintentionally does is create a protected market for US cue makers. Cues with ivory are in demand here as you know and US makers are the only ones that can legally sell them in the US.

Shipping to different climates is a challenge for all of us. I understand that you deal with it by climate controlling your wood that ships to different climates as it ages. I do the same here in south Louisiana with our own high humidity and heat problems. It is pleasant to work in a well insulated and air conditioned shop but the truth is that it is for the proper care of my stock, adhesives, and finish materials that I control the temperature and humidity 24/7 365 days a year.

Hu

 

[bandido]

Edwin,

The strict ivory law is actually an unintentional benefit for US cue makers. There is no shortage of quality well dried ivory in the US nor will there be for the foreseeable future. However what CITES unintentionally does is create a protected market for US cue makers. Cues with ivory are in demand here as you know and US makers are the only ones that can legally sell them in the US.

Hu

I know but what about the ivory-laden cues that created the US custom cue reputation in the worldwide stage? If these cues can't be sent back to the US based cuemaker then the problem that need it to be sent back will cause to ruin that US cuemaker's reputation.

"US makers are the only ones that can legally..." not always, there's a law about crossing state borders.

Being popular in the US is a given but that's a limited market.

 

[bandido]

Edwin,

Shipping to different climates is a challenge for all of us. I understand that you deal with it by climate controlling your wood that ships to different climates as it ages. I do the same here in south Louisiana with our own high humidity and heat problems. It is pleasant to work in a well insulated and air conditioned shop but the truth is that it is for the proper care of my stock, adhesives, and finish materials that I control the temperature and humidity 24/7 365 days a year.

Hu

That by itself was inadequate.

 

[Fatboy]

Lucky sends ivory cues to the states from time to time, I dont know how but he does and they are big cues, not little ivory dots.


I just came in from Germany with a cue with some ivory in it, I also had my CITIES permit for an elephant I shot 5 years ago, so I can travel with ivory because I legallly harvested it.

 

[ShootingArts]

not all I do

That by itself was inadequate.

There are a handful of things I do to try to insure no future problems. Getting the moisture content stable in my wood and keeping it stable is a start. Only a decade or two will tell how successful my way of doing things is though.

I did a little research concerning the interstate shipment of ivory. One place says that the shipping of endangered species from state to state is prohibited. This usually means any part of such an animal and Asian elephants are classified "endangered" I believe. Further down in the same paragraph it states that CITES legal African ivory can move freely within the US. As far as I know, there has never been an issue with the movement of legal ivory from state to state. Please do update me if you know of problems with any specific state or border. I try to keep up with such things.

Hu


(included text, I highlighted the parts of primary interest)
The U.S. Endangered Species Act lists the Asian elephant as "endangered" and the African elephant as "threatened." The Endangered Species Act prohibits the import and interstate commerce of products of all species listed as endangered. Additionally, the African Elephant Conservation Act, passed in 1988, allows the U.S. government to take strict action against illegal ivory imports and authorizes government funding for elephant field conservation projects. Under this law, the U.S. banned imports of African elephant ivory in 1989. Within the United States, however, it is legal to buy, sell, and transport African elephant ivory that was purchased before the ban. It is not always clear, though, how this determination is made as there was no obligation to report and register such stocks at the time the ban was imposed. Both CITES and U.S. law allow for limited import of noncommercial sport - hunted African elephant trophies and elephant hides from certain countries.

 

[Detlev Rackow]

I think a good case study is the motorcycle. Back in the late 60's and early 70's the rice burners were getting to be very popular. The Harley was losing ground. It seems as if everyone jump on the Japanese bikes because they were cheaper and supposedly of better quality. More bang for the buck.

Try to find one of those old bikes today. You will find those old Harleys still hanging around but I don't think there are any of those old Kows or Hondas on the road.

What bike is the most popular today? My guess is Harley.

To my best knowledge Harley had to shape up enormously, as their quality and construction plant's logistics made it easy for japanese bikes to compete at a high level.

However, I see a completely different market for cues than for bikes.

The cuemaker who produces a $1,000+-cue to the customer's personal demands will most likely find his client five years from now. However, there is a large number of cuemakers who focus more on a "player's cue" which offers a good value for the money, but lacks the fancy features of the high-priced models. Players who value only the playability of their cues will much more easily be tempted to buy an "economy-class"-cue from a chinese manufacturer, if they get the same quality for less money.

Afaik, McDermott has just signed a contract with Kaofa, who in turn will build a "value"-cueline to distribute in the US. McDermott will continue to sell US-made cues under their own brand, but the signs are pretty obvious.

In my opinion, the way for cuemakers to survive the shift in the market is to offer the service and the level of communication with the customer that a large overseas-manufacturer can not deliver.

It is up to the cuemaker to make the customer feel appreciated in his demands. Only if the customer feels that his demands are taken seriously, will he be willing to spend more money on a custom cue than on a production one.

Those who believe that the production of quality-cues is something the chinese can not master over time, would be advised to have a look at Predator's and McDermott's chinese-made ware. Although a 314 does not have the great look of an AAA+-grade maple shaft, there are quite a lot of people who believe that this shaft delivers the performance they seek.

Regards,

Detlev

 

[bandido]

There are a handful of things I do to try to insure no future problems. Getting the moisture content stable in my wood and keeping it stable is a start. Only a decade or two will tell how successful my way of doing things is though.

I did a little research concerning the interstate shipment of ivory. One place says that the shipping of endangered species from state to state is prohibited. This usually means any part of such an animal and Asian elephants are classified "endangered" I believe. Further down in the same paragraph it states that CITES legal African ivory can move freely within the US. As far as I know, there has never been an issue with the movement of legal ivory from state to state. Please do update me if you know of problems with any specific state or border. I try to keep up with such things.

Hu


(included text, I highlighted the parts of primary interest)
The U.S. Endangered Species Act lists the Asian elephant as "endangered" and the African elephant as "threatened." The Endangered Species Act prohibits the import and interstate commerce of products of all species listed as endangered. Additionally, the African Elephant Conservation Act, passed in 1988, allows the U.S. government to take strict action against illegal ivory imports and authorizes government funding for elephant field conservation projects. Under this law, the U.S. banned imports of African elephant ivory in 1989. Within the United States, however, it is legal to buy, sell, and transport African elephant ivory that was purchased before the ban. It is not always clear, though, how this determination is made as there was no obligation to report and register such stocks at the time the ban was imposed. Both CITES and U.S. law allow for limited import of noncommercial sport - hunted African elephant trophies and elephant hides from certain countries.

You're doing good Hu. It is the ones who, put their trust on wood suppliers specs, are the ones succeptible to creating troublesome products that eventually will help to ruin the US custom cue mystique outside the US.

Regarding ivory laws, your researched law on US local distribution is right but I do know that not all ivory used there on cues are legal or there wouldn't be confiscation issues on transcontinental border checks. If all ivory on US cues are legal then they all will have proper documentation.
Apparently that's not the case because I do experience an increase of repair orders on US custom collectible-level cues that can't be sent back to its origin. Reason mainly is lack of proper documentation, to satisfy the strict FWS laws, when this influx started.

I did state that the popularity of ivory laden, legal or otherwise, custom cues in the US by US makers is a given and that is because the discussion was concerning "transcontinental exchange" of goods.

 

[skins]

Still no answer to the question tho , well done once again.

I'll let you'all have the sand box to yourselves now.


Nighty night.




Jay ------ knows where the unsubscribe button is and how to use it.

Jay,

sandbox to "ourselves"?, don't pout, just jump in......

hint......5th axis and the right tools.........here's a link on you tube with a glimpse.......LINK...2 tools (these are key) and the A axis fixture to hold and rotate the cue is all that's not there (this machine is a little overkill but i'd hope you get the idea).......maybe the next time you're near the Chicago "sandbox" maybe we can talk CAM/Cue techniques.......



skins --------- thinks it's Jay's choice to use the "unsubscribe" button but that said doesn't think he should, my sandbox is always open.....