skins said:
put together a cue efficiently and closely inspects the cue for any defects or needed alterations and additional modifications.
sadly, we're not yet under the I-ROBOT era !
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Will Chinese Cue production effect the Custom Cue Market in the near future or not?
- Thread starter manwon
- Start date
put together a cue efficiently and closely inspects the cue for any defects or needed alterations and additional modifications.
sadly, we're not yet under the I-ROBOT era !
CocoboloCowboy said:
Yes, I agree... I myself am having work done on a Lucasi, when the cue is returned to me, Im going to show the Modifications made...
(the joint came loose and needed repair, the gentleman in my sig is performing the work)
SPINDOKTOR
The Affects of production!!!
Yes, it will effect the market. Look at how they produced cars 50 or 75 years ago as to how they produce them today? Are cars better today? Yes they are, overall!. For example, they use robots to paint the car today, as opposed to painting them by hand years ago.
Doesn't mean they won't have humans to inspect the product at variouls stages along the way, but more will be automated in the future, and computers will be used more to insure tighter tolerances. Aircraft are normally produced with a .005" tolerance level. Those tolerance levels could not be attained without computers. It will be the same for any product in the future.
The Chinese and Japanese are masters at being able to produce a comparable American product for much less cost, starting with cheaper labor rates, but automating and upping production rates along the way. This is one reason everything is getting outsourced today from our country. Eventually, as the car market has done, some foreign companies will establish companies on our soil, with their production methods, in an effort to grab more of an American market share with mixed labor forces.
Some of our cuemakers/manufacturers are already going 'Global', as to whether the long term effects of it will be good or not, I am not entirely sure.
Yes, it will effect the market. Look at how they produced cars 50 or 75 years ago as to how they produce them today? Are cars better today? Yes they are, overall!. For example, they use robots to paint the car today, as opposed to painting them by hand years ago.
Doesn't mean they won't have humans to inspect the product at variouls stages along the way, but more will be automated in the future, and computers will be used more to insure tighter tolerances. Aircraft are normally produced with a .005" tolerance level. Those tolerance levels could not be attained without computers. It will be the same for any product in the future.
The Chinese and Japanese are masters at being able to produce a comparable American product for much less cost, starting with cheaper labor rates, but automating and upping production rates along the way. This is one reason everything is getting outsourced today from our country. Eventually, as the car market has done, some foreign companies will establish companies on our soil, with their production methods, in an effort to grab more of an American market share with mixed labor forces.
Some of our cuemakers/manufacturers are already going 'Global', as to whether the long term effects of it will be good or not, I am not entirely sure.
JB Cases said:
John, my only point to Mason was that if some one is using a certain construction technique they should admitt that is what they are using. Not do things one way and have people believe they are done a different way. In my opinion there is no reason for deceptive behavior, and the buyer should not have to guess.
It is kinda like the misconceptions that have been presented concerning where certain cues are being made. If a cue is made in China, then it should have a sticker on it that says so, this is the law. Now over the last 8 years on a few occasions certain people have sold cues that people thought they made, (with no sticker) that were actually made in China. To this day it is unclear if any where made by the individuals in question. Before any one asks, I am not going to throw any names out there, this is intended as an example not to flame anyone.
John, I totally disagree with you on this subject (It is my opinion that doing it with CNC is more time consuming, at least in the initial setup, than by the splice or v-groove method) Today you can buy complete programs , for inlays, for cutting shafts, for tapering butts, and for any other Computer Controlled Operation. Very few cue makers also do their own programing, most have a programmer that writes the code for their cue making operations. Where as on the other hand, when you set up for spliced points it takes a great deal or additional time to make your jigs, and to perfect your techniques. Because, these operations are generally in most cases totally accomplished by the individual cue maker, and to perfect these techniques takes a great deal of time to initially set-up. In addition even when your jigs are made and your equipment is set-up the technique is still accomplished with human hands and care must be taken to achieve quality results.
Have a good day!!!!
though a machine and other tools are instrumental in speeding up the process in building a cue, the cuemaker is still an integral part of that process. the machine cannot make judgement for itself if it did something right or not, of which is better (by looks and playability) and how to improve the cue further or do some corrections. it is simply programmed to do what it was supposed to do. it cannot understand the human psyche of selection and contention.in short, the machine cannot decide. that decision lies in the cuemaker.
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skins said:
Let's start with the simplest of all tasks , can you cut a sharp pointed inlay pocket with a CNC router/mill ? Typical curvy diamond inlay for example.
There a TON of things you need to do manually to make cues that cannot be cnc'd.skins said:
If you really want to get into a discussion... What about a cue with stickers under the finish? If it's impossible to tell with the naked eye, than what's the difference? In actuality, the stickers would be more strucuturally sound.
In truth, people pay for craftsmanship. Actually, they pay for perception of craftsmanship. Even if a particular CNC process requires heavy craftsmanship, if it's not apparent, its value won't be appreciated. For example, recut points are much more difficult than veneers, but they don't demand much of a premium despite the work.
If you want to go to the car analogy, you have to realize that we aren't comparing Fords to Nissans here. We're talking about Ferraris and Maseratis. Have Ford and Nissan put out well respected premium vehicles before? Sure. Do Ferrari and Maserati give a rats ass? I doubt it.
In truth, people pay for craftsmanship. Actually, they pay for perception of craftsmanship. Even if a particular CNC process requires heavy craftsmanship, if it's not apparent, its value won't be appreciated. For example, recut points are much more difficult than veneers, but they don't demand much of a premium despite the work.
If you want to go to the car analogy, you have to realize that we aren't comparing Fords to Nissans here. We're talking about Ferraris and Maseratis. Have Ford and Nissan put out well respected premium vehicles before? Sure. Do Ferrari and Maserati give a rats ass? I doubt it.
You got me on that one.thoffen said:
JoeyInCali said:
Not to imply that an inlay isn't structurally sound, but you would agree that a cue without any inlays (i.e. plain jane) is better constructed than one with other materials glued in place (all other things being equal), no?
Possibly a different story when you're talking about points, especially full-splice, but I was referring to inlays specifically.
thoffen said:
Personally I doubt there is any measurable structural difference whether inlays are added or not. In most cases they're only around a hundred tho deep or less.
CocoboloCowboy said:
Very true Bruce, and I make a great deal of money doing just that The adhesives, along with all the wood stabilizer used make for swelling and loose components. This in my opinion is the biggest down fall of the factories producing cues in China at this time. While the initial finished produce looks real good, within the first year the cues components begin to expand. This is due to the fact that in place of higher quality woods properly dried, wood stabilizers are used to control shrinkage and swelling. These stabilizers tend to leach out with time and the wood is left to natural movement. This is especially true in higher temperature environments, and it is even worst for those who keep their cues in their automobiles without temperature control. Another problem associated with these import cues is the materials used for joints and butts. Currently plastic materials are the material of choice over Phenolic. While they glue up well they are very sensitive to temperature changes and cracking is a common problem for these material through normal usage.
I think we all understand that the reason this items are produced in China is the bottom line. The profit margin on these cues is much greater than the profit margin for cues made by companies here in the USA. Even, with transportation, import fee's / tariffs, and all other costs associated with these products these companies are making twice as much wholesaling these items after importation is paid for them from the manufacturer.
Now, I know for a fact that the Chinese can produce products as good or better then those that are made here at this time. They certainly have the knowledge, the equipment, and the entire infrastructure is in place to do so. I think the only factor that has kept them out of the custom market are the current profit margins that are achieved at this time making production cues.
In reality the most important factor needed to upgrade the quality of Chinese produced cue is already available to them, and it certainly is not materials. It is however, people and by this I mean the cost associated with paying people to do a job. Lets face it, the most costly part of cue construction is the price of labor needed to do the task, and certainly not the materials used, and they certainly have no shortage of people willing to work
Hail Mary Shot said:just a thought rusty. let's say I have 2 cars (a brand new Toyota and a brand new Royce) which either one I am giving away for Christmas. If I would let you choose just one car, which car will you take and why?
giving away and buying are two different things....I have no problem taking something VERY expensive for free, and selling it to get something I want (whether it's expesive too or not), and pocketing what's leftover to use for purposes I deem more important. So, you wanna giftwrap a Rolls, or a 'Bushka (in cue terms), by all means, send it here. I wouldn't drive the car or play the cue though.
Hail Mary Shot said:put together a cue efficiently and closely inspects the cue for any defects or needed alterations and additional modifications.
sadly, we're not yet under the I-ROBOT era !
yes you can. robotic machinery could be used rather simply to put together a cue efficiently and with the use of scanning lasers which have come a long way just within the last 5 years could be programed to "look" for anything you need.
of course it would raise the cost of the cues because of the cost of the machinery and programing to run and service them........
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Chinese Cue Production
When the Chinese can produce a cue like the Bender cue I own I probably would buy one but I don't think they can. When players get to a certain level of play where they can appreciate specific details (playablity, efficiency, and balance, etc) price becomes secondary. As long as there are good players there will be a need for REAL custom cues.
Its been long known that alot of production cuemakers can make a good cue. 1 out of a 100 of them will have very good playablity. Why people pay alot for a Mottey cue is because 99 out of a 100 play great. Consistency is what separates the great cuemakers of today from wana be's and mass produced cues can't compete at this level.
When the Chinese can produce a cue like the Bender cue I own I probably would buy one but I don't think they can. When players get to a certain level of play where they can appreciate specific details (playablity, efficiency, and balance, etc) price becomes secondary. As long as there are good players there will be a need for REAL custom cues.
Its been long known that alot of production cuemakers can make a good cue. 1 out of a 100 of them will have very good playablity. Why people pay alot for a Mottey cue is because 99 out of a 100 play great. Consistency is what separates the great cuemakers of today from wana be's and mass produced cues can't compete at this level.
After you join the v-splice forearm to the handle, if there is a little runout in the A-joint, can cnc fix that BEFORE taking a pass?skins said:
You cut threads on collars and tenon with a cnc?
Face a cue after pin was installed?
Install a wrap with cnc?
JoeyInCali said:
yes,
yes,
yes,
yes,
and umm.....yes...
Joey, what you are focusing on is what you think a "CNC" machine is. CNC is just a protocol language to manipulate motor driven machines be them milling, cutting, drilling, threading, ect....or even laser guided inspection. it can all be done. whether it's cost effective for sales is the issue and that is the only NO answer......