Will Chinese Cue production effect the Custom Cue Market in the near future or not?

[skins]

Consistency is what separates the great cuemakers of today from wana be's and mass produced cues can't compete at this level.

i agree.....this is one of the few things that a machine would have trouble with......cue makers waste allot of material getting their cues "right" and if the same scrutiny was used for machine building there would be much more waste and would not be cost effective for the sale of the product....that's one of the reasons no one has set up a completely automated production house.

 

[manwon]

i agree.....this is one of the few things that a machine would have trouble with......cue makers waste allot of material getting their cues "right" and if the same scrutiny was used for machine building there would be much more waste and would not be cost effective for the sale of the product....that's one of the reasons no one has set up a completely automated production house.

The point of this thread was that Chinese production using this machinery is as good as any used here, and their programers are also equal. The opinions I hoped for were how will this effect the Custom Cue Market in this country. The fact that they have the ability, and understand the methods necassary to produce high quality products, how long will it be before these products start showing up here in this country and what effect will it have.

I

 

[skins]

The point of this thread was that Chinese production using this machinery is as good as any used here, and their programers are also equal.
the machinery is as good but the "artisans" have yet to compare imo.
The opinions I hoped for were how will this effect the Custom Cue Market in this country. The fact that they have the ability, and understand the methods necassary to produce high quality products, how long will it be before these products start showing up here in this country and what effect will it have.
i can't answer those questions but what i will say is that, like in every culture there are "heros" born from all types of creation, that being said i think that as long as there are "heros" here, there should be no worry as the desire for "hometown" work will always outweigh that from abroad.

I

skins --------------- see's no reason to worry........

 

[Rockin' Robin]

I have to take exception to TWOFORPOOL's post about consistency. While there maybe some custom cuemakers that produce a consistent hitting cue, they are a rare bird indeed. Only the production line cuemakers can provide a consistency of product, period.
Yes, i am a cheerleader for production line cues, whether american or imported. I have seen the evolution of billiard cues during the last 40 years, and have quite a pile of what are considered the finest cues made on the planet. I too, was searching for magic, it cant be bought. Give me a mcdermott, viking, joss, schon, or even a meucci. At least I know if I lose it, I can grab another one, and have close to the same performance, not to mention.........NO WAITING.

 

[Fast Lenny]

I think they have cues at a very high quality now and will they produce a cue that hits like a SW,sure they probably already have.If you want cheap playability then this isnt a problem and is worth the money,but for collectability i dont think we need to worry about China.

 

[Newton]

I think the point I made earlier is also something to be aware of:

A lot of cues are made in China which I guess there are a lot of players not aware about.
If I'm not mistaking, both McDermott (they still produce in US, but have also a cheap line made down there I read here sometime) and Meucci has cuelines made down there.
Edit: Read this thread :http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=71551&highlight=McDermott+factory
Lucasi,Adam,Mali,Predator,Longoni,Fury and ??? are also made down there so I guess the impact has already started.
It's just that many of the players do not know it, which again is debatable.

Would the cues feel different if they had a little sticker saying "made in china" ?

I guess for some, Yes and for others No..

 

[ShootingArts]

I have video of the same operation

Funny thing, I have video of the exact same operation. Not a clip, a full length video. The very next step in the video I have is cleaning up the bottom of the "V", . . . by hand!

It appears that there are issues with the rigidity of the NC machine being used in your video, a strong indication that a high precision cut isn't being achieved. Also the operator is having to baby-sit the NC machine every moment. Where are the savings? Higher initial cost, inferior quality to other machine tools that can be used, no labor time saved.

Hu

did you see the link in my first post??? 90% v groove cutter used. the cutter does come to a, for all intensive purposes, inside edge with no "real" radius. there are many tools that can be used that will yield no radius for finishing work, i program for their use all the time. you're talking in micro exactitudes that aren't a big detriment to building even today's most intricate cues. as far as you saying i don't understand the realities, maybe i missed something but i didn't read anyone singling out these points for production cues sake. i'm talking machining for cues in general not ones based on a $200 price tag....there'd be no point in doing the fine work in those cues, you'd be out of business in a week. my point was that anything that can be finished by hand can be done with a machine using cnc technology and the right tool. my background by the way is as a CAD design and CNC programmer for 20+ years. 15 of those designing and code writing for cue production.


skins ------- understands the realities and boundries of cue production......

 

[Newton]

Funny thing, I have video of the exact same operation. Not a clip, a full length video. The very next step in the video I have is cleaning up the bottom of the "V", . . . by hand!

It appears that there are issues with the rigidity of the NC machine being used in your video, a strong indication that a high precision cut isn't being achieved. Also the operator is having to baby-sit the NC machine every moment. Where are the savings? Higher initial cost, inferior quality to other machine tools that can be used, no labor time saved.

Hu

HU;
Do you have a video from Bob? Does he hand finnish the bottom of the V grove?
How can you say Bob has problems with rigidity of his NC?
He uses techno Isel top of the line equipment and if you think he needs to hold his hand on it and stand there just because the machine has problems, he doesn't.
The reason for it is because he's using a manual indexer to rotate the forarm after each pass!

The savings would be that he can use the same machine for inlays, pockets, make halfspliced forarms, tapper shafts and tapper butts along with other things!!!

- I guess you would be doing the same by having one dedicated lathe for tappering.
- One lathe setup for turning squares round
- One lathe setup for cutting V groves
- One pantomill to cut out inlays which needs to be altered to make pockets in the cue by possibly parking it on one of you're lathes.

I for sure see some benefits here, even if I had the same setup and had to do some work by hand....

Even if you have a video - which I expect is from Bob's shop since you draw the parallel where he is cleaning up the V grooves by hand - I would still prefer this method than having a shop full of 3-4-5 dedicated lathes. Simply because I don't have room for all of them
N

 

[RRfireblade]

one word.... YES.

One word doesn't say a thing , explain it in some detail.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

One word doesn't say a thing , explain it in some detail.

good argument. it's easy to say Yes without any supporting statements to back it up.

 

[Newton]

Funny thing, I have video of the exact same operation. Not a clip, a full length video. The very next step in the video I have is cleaning up the bottom of the "V", . . . by hand!

It appears that there are issues with the rigidity of the NC machine being used in your video, a strong indication that a high precision cut isn't being achieved. Also the operator is having to baby-sit the NC machine every moment. Where are the savings? Higher initial cost, inferior quality to other machine tools that can be used, no labor time saved.

Hu

It upsets me that people are judging others based on something which seems to be without any decent ground at all.

A great cue maker is here judged to have inferior quality equipment and is claimed to do "clean up" of V groves which I know is for sure BS! Also it's claimed the need of babysitting a equipment which is simply not true.

I'm not sure what reason you have hear Hu, but please feel free to make some kind of explanation on which information you are judging from.

N

 

[JoeyInCali]

yes,
yes,
yes,
yes,
and umm.....yes...

Joey, what you are focusing on is what you think a "CNC" machine is. CNC is just a protocol language to manipulate motor driven machines be them milling, cutting, drilling, threading, ect....or even laser guided inspection. it can all be done. whether it's cost effective for sales is the issue and that is the only NO answer......

Ok.
I have no clue how you would generate g-codes on finding the true center of a jointed shortsplice.
Can a cnc apply linen wrap too with the ends secure with toothpicks instead of glue?

 

[Newton]

Ok.
I have no clue how you would generate g-codes on finding the true center of a jointed shortsplice.
Can a cnc apply linen wrap too with the ends secure with toothpicks instead of glue?

Joey:

There would be a small R2D2 preprogrammed little genius with a magazine of 100 000 toothpics soaked in a magic substance which roll out over the linen grip, rolling the grip and sealing it by a magical invisible beam of laser

N

 

[ShootingArts]

Your video proves you wrong

My video is from elsewhere, I said the same process. The inside corner of the "V" is unsharp enough that it results in less than a perfect fit with a sharply cornered, true, freshly final cut point. Another issue is that a 90 degree tool often doesn't cut an exact 90 degree vee in wood leaving hand fitting to be done between the woods. The other options are to use extreme pressure to fit the parts together leaving residual stress in the finished cue or to fill the gaps with glue, leaving glue lines. What you may find acceptable in production is not acceptable in a decent custom shop.

What is your all CNC solution for dealing with these things? Approximate cost?

You seem to have difficulty remembering what was in my earlier posts that you have already responded to. I have CNC equipment in my shop and use it when it is appropriate. Much nicer than a pantograph for roughing and it can finish cut some inlays. I also have multiple lathes to serve multiple purposes and other tooling. Finally I have hand tooling and when it gets time to use it, I have a certified flat surface and sand paper.

HU;
How can you say Bob has problems with rigidity of his NC?
He uses techno Isel top of the line equipment and if you think he needs to hold his hand on it and stand there just because the machine has problems, he doesn't.
The reason for it is because he's using a manual indexer to rotate the forarm after each pass!N

Your own video proves your words I emphasized in red false and also answers any question of which of us has a better understanding of shop practices.

He makes four passes before rotating the wood. He grabs the wood every pass without fail. Either he doesn't understand shop safety which I would be amazed to learn or he is doing it for a reason. When he is through cutting he grabs the indexer not the wood to rotate everything. He never touches the wood when he is rotating it and indeed can not rotate anything without unlocking the indexer. One handle unlocks my indexer and is used to turn it also. Pretty standard and I suspect his is set up just the same.

Grabbing that wood while the spindle is running is an unsafe practice particularly using what appears to be a brazed cutting tool. The reason for grabbing it is usually to provide damping to make a heavier cut than the set-up should be used for saving time and tooling. Definitely not an OSHA approved practice though!

Hu

 

[RRfireblade]

Look , we can play the semantics game all day long.

I'm a machinist, I write cam all day long. I not only run 'em but have built a whole variety of NC machines including the couple I have at home so this is not a slam in either direction.

"Could" someone start a multimillion dollar development project to create an infinitely articulating multi milling/cutting maching capable of recreating each of the individual steps required to build a highend cue being controlled purely by cnc/g code ? Yeah , probably.

Now that's out of the way . . .

Can the average , currently available to the public variety of CNC milling/routing machines commonly used for cue building do it without manual intervention in many of the steps ?

Obviously no.

Sheesh.

 

[ShootingArts]

exactly what I have said all along

All you have done is repeated my position, possible and practical are miles apart in this case.

Hu

Look , we can play the semantics game all day long.

I'm a machinist, I write cam all day long. I not only run 'em but have built a whole variety of NC machines including the couple I have at home so this is not a slam in either direction.

"Could" someone start a multimillion dollar development project to create an infinitely articulating multi milling/cutting maching capable of recreating each of the individual steps required to build a highend cue being controlled purely by cnc/g code ? Yeah , probably.

Now that's out of the way . . .

Can the average , currently available to the public variety of CNC milling/routing machines commonly used for cue building do it without manual intervention in many of the steps ?

Obviously no.

Sheesh.

 

[RRfireblade]

All you have done is repeated my position, possible and practical are miles apart in this case.

Hu

Not quite.

If you (or others, I never singled any one person out) would have simpy said it that way there would be no discussion.

 

[Newton]

Hu;

Late reply, have been practicing in the pool hall
I'm not going to make a big argument about this but:

My video is from elsewhere, I said the same process.

Well, the way you wrote it pretty mutch indicated that the video previously linked (Bob) was performing additional "handwork" on the bottom of the V groves.
In addition it was read as that the work performed would not be as good as for other mechanical tools.

I can tell you that this is not the case. Bob has never done any additional "hand work" on his V groves. I know, I discussed this with Bob today !!

The inside corner of the "V" is unsharp enough that it results in less than a perfect fit with a sharply cornered, true, freshly final cut point. Another issue is that a 90 degree tool often doesn't cut an exact 90 degree vee in wood leaving hand fitting to be done between the woods. The other options are to use extreme pressure to fit the parts together leaving residual stress in the finished cue or to fill the gaps with glue, leaving glue lines. What you may find acceptable in production is not acceptable in a decent custom shop.

Again, you are generalizing here and are you correlate this to all CNC machines? In case I think you should be humble enough to mention which equipment you are using and link the problems to the machine you have this experience with.
There are many different types of CNC equipment and generalizing like this might not be the correct way.

Your own video proves your words I emphasized in red false and also answers any question of which of us has a better understanding of shop practices.

I have no video on my web pages concerning CNC, nor have I linked to any web pages showing any CNC work. I think you need to go back and have a look.

He makes four passes before rotating the wood. He grabs the wood every pass without fail. Either he doesn't understand shop safety which I would be amazed to learn or he is doing it for a reason. When he is through cutting he grabs the indexer not the wood to rotate everything. He never touches the wood when he is rotating it and indeed can not rotate anything without unlocking the indexer. One handle unlocks my indexer and is used to turn it also. Pretty standard and I suspect his is set up just the same.

The reason for Bob was holding his hands on the forarm was that he had at the time the video was done, some problems with vibration, due to a to light headstock on his setup. This has for sure been changed and has nothing to do with the CNC machine !

I think also you missed the point I was trying to make; He was waiting there to change the indexer. Of course he's not changing the axis while the machine is cutting... He could of course sit down and look, but the point was that he manually changes the 4th axis index.
There's no need to "watch dog" the machine as you indicated if you don't feel like it.

Health and safety is far from this discussion and has noting to do with the discussed subject.
That is something each and every one of us must consider in it's own way.

Anyway, I thing we are migrating far from the initial subject, so I just finnish my post on this by saying that Bob has not the problems you have been emphasizing just to let the other readers know this.

N

 

[skins]

One word doesn't say a thing , explain it in some detail.

20+ years is how i know what i know. if you do enough research, find the right vendors, and describe what you want to do they will point in the direction to do it. most CNC vendors will help you find the right machine, tool(s), and programming needed to perform this. it can be done easily and i've programmed many-a-code in many different areas of production and materials to do just this thing..............and yea one word was all you're question needed....YES.

skins ------------- knows there are very few things that can't be done......

 

[skins]

Ok.
I have no clue how you would generate g-codes on finding the true center of a jointed shortsplice.
Can a cnc apply linen wrap too with the ends secure with toothpicks instead of glue?

Joey,
your fighting a loosing battle.....you can do just about anything with the machinery of today. the issue is whether it's cost effective to do so....the answer for many of the manually done things in cue crafting is NO that's my point.

skins ---------- knows just cause you can do something doesn't mean you shoud........