Will one shaft spin the cb better than another? Will one tip miscue more than another

[JimS]

In another thread I read where posters believe that they can spin the ball better with a particular shaft than with another and I have a lot of trouble believing that.

I think that if one hits the cb a certain amount off-center, at a certain speed, then the cb will spin a certain amount and that this amount will be the same regardless of the shaft used.

I also read where one poster says that a certain medium-hard layered tip will miscue frequently even when chalked and hints that this does not happen with some unnamed other tip. I don't believe that either.

I think that if a miscue is experienced on a well chalked tip it's because the player misguided the cue and that particular stroke would have generated a miscue regardless of the tip used. The exception would be an extremely hard, flat and smooth tip and/or the use of extreme english.

Is my thinking incorrect?

 

[Kyzyl]

In another thread I read where posters believe that they can spin the ball better with a particular shaft than with another and I have a lot of trouble believing that.

I think that if one hits the cb a certain amount off-center, at a certain speed, then the cb will spin a certain amount and that this amount will be the same regardless of the shaft used.

I also read where one poster says that a certain medium-hard layered tip will miscue frequently even when chalked and hints that this does not happen with some unnamed other tip. I don't believe that either.

I think that if a miscue is experienced on a well chalked tip it's because the player misguided the cue and that particular stroke would have generated a miscue regardless of the tip used. The exception would be an extremely hard, flat and smooth tip and/or the use of extreme english.

Is my thinking incorrect?

I'm not quite sure about this but, I think certain shafts can put more english on the ball than others. It all depends on how much the shaft is able to flex when contact is made. If you were able to slow down a pool shot you would see that any hit, exepct center ball, causes the shaft to flex, therfore it is able to put more of whatever your trying to put on the cue ball. For instance: you could take a OB-1 shaft and a regualr house cue, same tips, diameter, ect. The house cue shaft is as stiff as a rock and is only good for breaking it over your oppoents head. The OB-shaft will be able to flex and come back to normal shape with no problem. You might already know this, but just my 2 cents.

On the other hand, I think the tip miscues would most likely come from harder tips, but then again, the ratio would be so small that it does not really matter.

Hope this helps.

 

[Scott Lee]

Is my thinking incorrect?

JimS...In a word...NOPE! There are many myths in pool, and this is certainly one of them. It's the quality of the stroke that matters, not which shaft or what tip you use. That said, we all are 'more comfortable' playing with one thing or another...and consequently may "feel" like we can do more with said item!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[JimS]

I'm not quite sure about this but, I think certain shafts can put more english on the ball than others. It all depends on how much the shaft is able to flex when contact is made. If you were able to slow down a pool shot you would see that any hit, exepct center ball, causes the shaft to flex, therfore it is able to put more of whatever your trying to put on the cue ball. For instance: you could take a OB-1 shaft and a regualr house cue, same tips, diameter, ect. The house cue shaft is as stiff as a rock and is only good for breaking it over your oppoents head. The OB-shaft will be able to flex and come back to normal shape with no problem. You might already know this, but just my 2 cents.

On the other hand, I think the tip miscues would most likely come from harder tips, but then again, the ratio would be so small that it does not really matter.

Hope this helps.

Ob's web site says exactly opposite of what you are sayiing. They maintain that the shaft is stiffer and therefore causes more spin. I think I don't believe it. It think it's hype.... or spin ... spin of another sort. LOL ROTFLMFAO

Ok... after the bad pun; I still don't buy it. At least not yet. I think that folks want to believe it so they do.

I don't disblieve that some shafts deflect less. That has been shown. But I don't believe that you can spin the ball ore with one shaft than another. Not yet.

 

[JimS]

JimS...In a word...NOPE! There are many myths in pool, and this is certainly one of them. It's the quality of the stroke that matters, not which shaft or what tip you use. That said, we all are 'more comfortable' playing with one thing or another...and consequently may "feel" like we can do more with said item!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Thanks Scott. They want to believe!

The only test I know how to do is to put the cb on the head spot. Shoot it to the end rail exactly on the middle diamond with as much spin as you can hit it with. Do this about a dozen times and note where the cb hits the side rail. I've found that it's about the same with every cue/shaft I've tried. I haven't, in all fairness tried a ob yet. I only have my regular shafts, a 314 and a z 1 but they all spin the ball the same as far as I can see using my admittedly non-scientific, but practical tests. Seems to me this test is what will relate to normal use.

 

[Pushout]

As Scott Lee said, NO!!

 

[poolplayer2093]

maybe it's all mental but there are certian cues and shafts that i've played with that seem to move the cueball around with less effort. and cues that spin (or seem to ) spin the cueball easier. hay though i've been wrong before

 

[worriedbeef]

incidentally, what do you mean when you ask whether a shaft will spin the ball 'better'?

what is better?

more spin, or with more control?

 

[randyg]

About 1000th of a second.

 

[Kyzyl]

Ob's web site says exactly opposite of what you are sayiing. They maintain that the shaft is stiffer and therefore causes more spin. I think I don't believe it. It think it's hype.... or spin ... spin of another sort. LOL ROTFLMFAO

Ok... after the bad pun; I still don't buy it. At least not yet. I think that folks want to believe it so they do.

I don't disblieve that some shafts deflect less. That has been shown. But I don't believe that you can spin the ball ore with one shaft than another. Not yet.

Like I said, not really sure. OB-1 shafts are made different from other shafts so that could be a factor, but that is how I was taught as a young pool player... that flex induces spin, not much more, but more.

 

[WesleyW]

Thanks Scott. They want to believe!

The only test I know how to do is to put the cb on the head spot. Shoot it to the end rail exactly on the middle diamond with as much spin as you can hit it with. Do this about a dozen times and note where the cb hits the side rail. I've found that it's about the same with every cue/shaft I've tried. I haven't, in all fairness tried a ob yet. I only have my regular shafts, a 314 and a z 1 but they all spin the ball the same as far as I can see using my admittedly non-scientific, but practical tests. Seems to me this test is what will relate to normal use.

I don't think your stroke is everytime the same. So your test isn't reliable.

Have you seen this site before?:
http://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php

If the test is fair, I think the results will be quite reliable, it reflects what most peoples expects. And I think, if there is different deflection, different spin should also exist.

The second reason why I think that different shaft will give different spin is because, when you use a stiff cue, you will hit de CB forward. When you use english you put the CB forward, so you lose some spin. When the shaft is flexible, the shaft will bend on contact (deflection). When the shaft go to normal again, it will but sideway power, which will give extra spin.

I also believe a hard tip will miscue often. When the tip hits a CB a soft tip will fold around the CB. So the tip has more contact with the CB. A hard tip wouldnt fold that easy, that means less contact. The better contact, the less miscue.

 

[Jal]

...I think that if one hits the cb a certain amount off-center, at a certain speed, then the cb will spin a certain amount and that this amount will be the same regardless of the shaft used. ...

A partial answer is along the lines that Kyzl just mentioned. A lower squirt shaft will give you a greater spin/speed ratio. Using Predator's data, for a typical cue they use a figure of about 2.7 degrees of squirt at an offset of about 0.4R. (The 0.4R may not be exactly right.) According to their measurements, their first and second generation shafts produce about 2.0 and 1.8 degrees of squirt at the same offset, respectively. From this you can determine that these yield about a 3% and 4% increase in spin/speed ratio: if the cueball is propelled at the same speed, you'll get a 3% and 4% increase in spin rate. If squirt were reduced to zero, the increase would be 12%.

Figuring its change in absolute spin for some given cue speed is more involved and I haven't read or worked out the details. But I think it's safe to say that if their numbers are correct (some believe the squirt reduction is much greater), the increase in absolute spin isn't much, even allowing for some difference in its absolute speed.

Another way to get more speed and spin (same ratio) is to increase the efficiency of the cue and tip (tip mainly). If a particular cue is, say, 85% efficient at an offset of 0.4R (15% of the available energy is lost), making it 100% efficient would produce a 9% increase in speed and spin (squirt aside). Given a more realistic increase in efficiency, you're not going to realize anything close to this 9% gain (although the starting figure of 85% may not be realistic either - it is realistic for a centerball hit but I don't know the number at a large tip offset).

At any rate, I wouldn't expect that you're likely to see differences of 15% or more unless maybe you're making a comparison with a really bad cue/tip combination in the first place.

Jim

 

[DaveK]

I don't think your stroke is everytime the same. So your test isn't reliable.

Have you seen this site before?:
http://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php

If the test is fair, I think the results will be quite reliable, it reflects what most peoples expects. And I think, if there is different deflection, different spin should also exist.

The second reason why I think that different shaft will give different spin is because, when you use a stiff cue, you will hit de CB forward. When you use english you put the CB forward, so you lose some spin. When the shaft is flexible, the shaft will bend on contact (deflection). When the shaft go to normal again, it will but sideway power, which will give extra spin.

I too have that gut-feel that the flexibility of the shaft will have some effect on the generated spin. I have not done any tests to prove / disprove this yet, but agree that without a machine doin' the hittin', and an instrument other than mach-1-eyeballs doing the measurin', it's hard to have much faith in the results. Think of it as spin about spin Of course I'm also a bit sceptical about tests done by anyone with a vested interest in the outcome, they spin things for the betterment of their wallets. That's my spin on this for now.

Dave

 

[manwon]

In another thread I read where posters believe that they can spin the ball better with a particular shaft than with another and I have a lot of trouble believing that.

I think that if one hits the cb a certain amount off-center, at a certain speed, then the cb will spin a certain amount and that this amount will be the same regardless of the shaft used.

I also read where one poster says that a certain medium-hard layered tip will miscue frequently even when chalked and hints that this does not happen with some unnamed other tip. I don't believe that either.

I think that if a miscue is experienced on a well chalked tip it's because the player misguided the cue and that particular stroke would have generated a miscue regardless of the tip used. The exception would be an extremely hard, flat and smooth tip and/or the use of extreme english.

Is my thinking incorrect?

Jim, I think that you are right on Target!!!! I am certain that you already know this but, there is much more than tips and shafts where good play is concerned. Many players new and experienced have some very interesting idea's concerning their individual equipment. How many times have you heard someone say that their equipment IE, tip or shaft has failed when the real problem was the individuals stroke that actually was inadequate.

Jim, while we know that there is really nothing wrong with the tip or the shaft, in most cases there is no way to convince the individual of that fact. So long as they believe this fact, they will not have the necessary confidants to execute their stroke, and this doubt in their equipment can only be dealt with by replacing what they perceive is the problem. With some people excuses are a way of life, sometimes people either refuse or simple can not find that the fault is with their individual fundamentals.

This lack of mental control and confidants is what stops many people from ever progressing not only in pool but also in anything that they do.

 

[PoolSponge]

Yes the shaft will effect the amount of spin. For more than one reason. Deflection has obvious effects. Probably one of the more easily noticeable is the comparison between laminated and one piece shafts. A laminated shaft will have identical hits for the whole 360 degrees. With a one piece shaft the grains of the wood will have an differing effect as you rotate the shaft. Put a knot in the shaft and the feel will change as well. For anyone who thinks otherwise, why does no one play with a Canadian Tire special?

 

[etimmons]

JimS...In a word...NOPE! There are many myths in pool, and this is certainly one of them. It's the quality of the stroke that matters, not which shaft or what tip you use. That said, we all are 'more comfortable' playing with one thing or another...and consequently may "feel" like we can do more with said item!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I am not sure if I read you correctly. If you are saying one shaft does not spin more than another then I disagree and so does several of the best players in the world, if that is not what you meant then I am sorry I said anything. Dee adkins and Corey Deuel both think the ob1 shaft spins more than the 314, with the same tip on each. I also think that. I am in the process of switching to the ob and that is one trouble I am getting used to. It is not my stroke and it surely is not the stroke to those two. ....Earl

 

[John Barton]

In another thread I read where posters believe that they can spin the ball better with a particular shaft than with another and I have a lot of trouble believing that.

I think that if one hits the cb a certain amount off-center, at a certain speed, then the cb will spin a certain amount and that this amount will be the same regardless of the shaft used.

I also read where one poster says that a certain medium-hard layered tip will miscue frequently even when chalked and hints that this does not happen with some unnamed other tip. I don't believe that either.

I think that if a miscue is experienced on a well chalked tip it's because the player misguided the cue and that particular stroke would have generated a miscue regardless of the tip used. The exception would be an extremely hard, flat and smooth tip and/or the use of extreme english.

Is my thinking incorrect?

Yes. All other things being equal, speed of stroke, contact point, cloth, climate and so on, different combinations of butt, shaft, tip, shape and chalk will generate differing amounts of spin.

On a personal level I know this to be true because I spent ten years in Germany getting experience with pool cues, carom cues, and snooker cues. Five of those years were spent in a small retail shop where we had one table surrounded by over 100 cues. During the day I would shoot as many as ten racks or more of pool and experiement with different cues. I would play almost every day with two or three different cues to teach myself about the feel of each type of construction. Along the way I learned that different cues do in fact produce more or less rpms with essentially the same stroke. I learned how to judge and how to adjust my stroke and grip to achieve the same results with different cues.

It's not until you have a large enough sample group of cues that you can really notice this fact in a significant way. And I am not alone, most of my visitors to the shop who were accomplished players experienced the same thing when they tried out many cues. Especially Carom Cues. The wood jointed carom cues in my shop would generate the most spin with the least effort. With them I could perform masse' shots that were extremely difficult to impossible for me using a pool cue.

On a scientific level - I have been present a few time where cues were put into machines designed to have the human variables controlled to be 100% repeatable each time. The facts are that different cues produce different results beyond any doubt. How much difference there is between cues of similar construction is of course debatable, but a difference definitely exists.

As to whether a tip can cause miscues. If you have the tip out to the edge of the ball then a tip that holds sufficient chalk will grip the ball adequately - as the chalk diminishes then the gripping action will lessen. So it is reasonable to assume that a tip which does not "hold" chalk well can have a higher propensity to miscue. I personally believe that how well a tip holds chalk is completely up to the person who maintains the tip. And I believe that the majority of miscues are a result of improper stroking and aiming rather than the equipment.

I believe that the scientists among us can explain the idea of amplitude and friction which is what I believe applies when one type of cue "spins" the ball more than another.

For those that say it's all in the stroke. I have a $1000 challenge. I will provide four cues and five artistic pool stroke shots from the book. If you can score within five points on the score of those five shots using each cue then you will win the $1000. If not then I win the $1000. The cues won't be gaffed in any way - they will be two standard pool cues off the rack, one standard carom cue, off the rack, and one standard snooker cue off the rack.

I have the highest respect for our instructors but I have to respectfully disagree with anyone who claims that there is no difference in how the equipment performs.

 

[Varney Cues]

I have the highest respect for our instructors but I have to respectfully disagree with anyone who claims that there is no difference in how the equipment performs.

This is where John & I agree...believe it or not.
If you don't agree then try an extreme inside english cut shot. Try it with a Meucci and ElkMaster. Then try the same shot with a stiff 13.5mm Joss with a hard WB tip. You'll understand quickly.

 

[Scott Lee]

I have the highest respect for our instructors but I have to respectfully disagree with anyone who claims that there is no difference in how the equipment performs.

John...For the vast majority of poolplayers, they will not be able to produce any significant difference. If you can spin the CB with one shaft, you'll be able to with another. As JAL pointed out (and he's a physics person), the difference in spin percentages (he called it speed/spin ratios) will be minimal, and imo not enough to make significant changes in your pool game. I will agree that carom cue joints do feel different, and do make severe spin shots like masse' easier to perform.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[John Barton]

John...For the vast majority of poolplayers, they will not be able to produce any significant difference. If you can spin the CB with one shaft, you'll be able to with another. As JAL pointed out (and he's a physics person), the difference in spin percentages (he called it speed/spin ratios) will be minimal, and imo not enough to make significant changes in your pool game. I will agree that carom cue joints do feel different, and do make severe spin shots like masse' easier to perform.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Well the question is DO shafts produce different RPMs. I think that the more experience a player has the more they can feel the differences. The question is not whether a player can adapt to a cue. Of course they can and the range they have with a particular cue depends on their ability to adapt AND on the equipment's range as well.

For argument's sake lets say that shaft A has a range of producing 0-100 rpms per minute with a 15mph hit at 1.5 tips offset from center. And shaft B can produce up to 150rpms. A great player would struggle to get past 100rpms with shaft A and it would theoretically be much easier for them to get to 100rpms with shaft A. An average player however might find it difficult to get to 70 rpms with shaft A and might find that they can reach 100 rpms with shaft B using the same effort as they expend getting to 70 with shaft A.

In both cases a definite performance difference could be felt with essentially the same effort. The ability to quantify and use that difference lies entirely with the skill of the player though.

I can decrease Semih Sayginer's catalog of shots by changing his cue. Conversely, I can increase Mike Massey's by changing his.

I personally don't want a cue that I have to struggle against. On a personal note again, when I arrived to China I picked a Fury cue off the rack and began to use it. It was 20oz with an 18" balance point and a stock tip. I was really struggling to control the cueball with this cue. I changed the tip twice to get a small improvement. I could barely draw my ball with it, really struggling each time to generate the rpms. Other people could play fine with it. I switched to one that is 19oz, stock tip, and about 17.5" balance point. It was like night and day for me. Now I have a much easier time and feel really comfortable with the cue.

So for me it was a question of seeing a significant difference that affected me. I could adapt myself to the first cue as I did to take second place in two tournaments and to win a little bit gambling. But I never felt really comfortable. I am a high B low A player and I can feel the differences in equipment and sometimes they are quite dramatic. While I agree in principle that the amount of difference in equipment is less important for players who don't really much skill and range I hope that you can agree that it becomes much more important and discernible as the level of ability rises.