Will there ever be an answer to pool in the States?

someone needs to develop a w.s.o.pool, pro-am event where amateur has a shot just like in poker, and also gets a chance to play with the pros, which for many is a dream come true.

I suggest a killer format. where a 1,000 people put in 1,000 bucks a piece. thats 1,000,000 in prize money start off with 10 players each at 100 tables, 100 winners move on to ten tables in 2nd round, 3rd round is the final table.

killer is no ones ideal format of pool, but it's simple, people will get it. and i think this would make for a good sister t.v. event. to the w.s.o.poker which is kinda dying out. instead of a golden bracelet, maybe a golden glove as the coveted prize.

Sounds like a good idea but you would be lucky to have 5 people put in a 1000. Allen Hopkins kind of tried this with his million dollar event a few years back, and I think he might have gotten around 20 players.

It's a chicken and the egg issue. If there was a legitimate pro tour then the youth would have something to aspire such as in golf or tennis. There are still some stigmas attached the game. I love the game and with everything I know, I'm not sure that I would encourage my own "kids" (if I had any) to play. I've seen a few promising young players in my area, go down the wrong road with the gambling and drugs.
 
Pool absolutely needs advocates but with the obesity rate constantly growing, and school's fighting tooth-and-nail for funding, adding something like pocket billiards is going to be an uphill climb. Why do I mention obesity rates? Because at the budget meeting, the soccer coach fighting for his program is going to argue that kids need aerobic exercise, something that pool lacks.

A potential first step before getting it into schools is getting it into community centers and starting programs that way. Convince people to donate (and therefore write-off) their old tables instead of selling them on Craigslist. People can then donate their time to teaching the game, organizing youth tourneys, etc. etc.
When you introduce Pool as a sport,you must have a program that includes the aspect of physical fitneess with the competitive side. The aerobics of Soccer are different from Basketball,Track,or Tennis. Golf and Billiards may be analagous as a lengthy walk,but are in fact healthy, for the individual participant.

I am a product of a community recreation center which had pool tables. It was located directly across the street from our Jr. High School. Many community centers are developing active participations with guidance,however they are at the mercy of tax revenues and millage rates which can change from one year to the next.

For the most part,a school is static and will be there for a longer period of time. The tables and equipment have a long shelf life and would pay for themselves in short order. Spectators pay a few dollars and the money supports the program. Most civic based programs are free as a quality of life issue in the community.

Donating previously owned equipment has an inherent maintenance value that could be a liability. Also,you want consistent playing conditions from location to location. I don't want to go from Boston Garden to the streets of the Bronx. Donated equipment is better for a church group or camping area. Just like rules of play,you must have consistency in a program.
 
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QUOTE=Black-Balled;3601413]But but but...Some billionaire could throw a couple million and and and...

Silly talk.[/QUOTE]:rolleyes: the wind carries money away just like a river!:cool:
 
Sounds like a good idea but you would be lucky to have 5 people put in a 1000. Allen Hopkins kind of tried this with his million dollar event a few years back, and I think he might have gotten around 20 players..

Interesting, What was the format that Allen Hopkins tried to get this going with?

I wouldnt pay a grand to play a pro in 8 or 9 ball tournament. But playing something like Killer where theres at least a smidgeon of a thought of a chance of winning, as a player i'd consider paying a grand just to be a part of the event.

As far as cleaning up pools image, thats gonna be a tough road to climb. I wonder if snooker has a silmilar image overseas.
 
...I wouldnt pay a grand to play a pro in 8 or 9 ball tournament. But playing something like Killer where theres at least a smidgeon of a thought of a chance of winning, as a player i'd consider paying a grand just to be a part of the event...

Don't start so big...and please look at what already exists.

there is an event in Chesapeake each year that you can enter for far below 1k and you have the exact same 'smidgeon of a thought of a chance of winning'.
 
Don't start so big...and please look at what already exists.

there is an event in Chesapeake each year that you can enter for far below 1k and you have the exact same 'smidgeon of a thought of a chance of winning'.

i'll do a google search I guess...

is it gonna be on espn??



the original poster sounded like he wanted to make pool big in the states, was just thinking we should start by thinking big. try and latch on to the coat tails of the world series of pokers format to success. like all these reality show spin offs.
 
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No great change will occur,even with the $700 Million Lottery,unless we get pool introduced to the secondary school systems in this country as an alternative to traditional sports....

Not only an alternative to traditional sports, but also an activity that could be targeted towards the non athletes. Think of the smart nerdy non athletic kids that are good in math and science. The geometry and physics of pool could be used as a tool to teaching. Bank shots, english, friction, tangent lines, throw, etc.. The math and science kids would eat it up. An after school pool/billiards club could be formed with just a cheap used table and a bunch of cues. This could be a whole different target audience in contrast to the typical bar guy pool player.
 
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Pool absolutely needs advocates but with the obesity rate constantly growing, and schools fighting tooth-and-nail for funding, adding something like pocket billiards is going to be an uphill climb. Why do I mention obesity rates? Because at the budget meeting, the soccer coach fighting for his program is going to argue that kids need aerobic exercise, something that pool lacks.

Granted, the obesity rate is growing, but honestly I put the blame on that mainly on TV, fast food and video games. When I was a kid I had a bike, a clubhouse that my dad and I built, I played hide and seek, etc. Most kids today come home from school and turn on the PS3 or Xbox, or Cartoon Network, etc. I applaud the parents that limit their kids' time on stuff like that and don't consider a Happy Meal to be a balanced dinner.

That being said, there are a lot of schools pushing non-aerobic sports/activities. Choir, archery, chess, band, golf.... I don't consider walking that aerobic, although doing it while carrying a tuba......

Schools should also consider pool as a training tool. Physics, geometry, chemistry (can YOU describe exactly what phenolic resin is?), botany (cue wood selection) and philosophy (why won't the @$%^ ball go in the @#$% hole?!?!). Actually, one of the best beginner players I ever saw was a physics major.
 
Not only an alternative to traditional sports, but also an activity that could be targeted towards the non athletes. Think of the smart nerdy non athletic kids that are good in math and science. The geometry and physics of pool could be used as a tool to teaching. Bank shots, english, friction, tangent lines, throw, etc.. The math and science kids would eat it up. An after school pool/billiards club could be formed with just a cheap used table and a bunch of cues. This could be a whole different target audience in contrast to the typical bar guy pool player.

Damn, I need to learn to type faster.....:rolleyes:
 
In some cases, and I say this because I used to go to Europe and play, it was new to them. Many snooker rooms began to add pool tables and it grew from there. The thing is, they already had Snooker to draw players from and the younger players began to gravitate to pool. They also already had some structure in place from snooker to develop tournament play. They already knew what they were doing.

I want to add this, I don't want to give the impression I am some globe trotting pro. I have relatives in European countries. All it took for me to go to Europe was a cheap plane ticket. I had places to stay and cars to drive for as long as I wished to stay. In fact because I can play a little, I always came back with much more money then I left with while having a great time traveling around. Today though, I have to admit, they play a lot better over there then they did 15 or 20 years ago and are a lot smarter regarding a pool hustler.

In this country I have found that in large part pool still has the stereo type of being a dirty, crooked, gamblers game that is played by unsavory types in the back smoke filled room of some speak-easy or illegal moonshine business. Is it perceived like that in other countries?
 
Pool in the United States is built on a crumbling foundation.

Every day you hear about another pool room closing. Amatuer pool is on the rise. Pro pool is fast becoming something of the past.

What can we do to fix this? Is there something we can do in our local communities to start the solution?

I believe the APA will explode within the next 20 years and something will take its place unless they radically change the way they approach their playerbase.

What can we do to make pro pool a legitimate pasttime again?

What can we do to bring pool rooms back into the black?

We are fast approaching the time when this game will become little more than a pasttime and the reality is that it is as mentally challenging as any other game out there.

I believe that the future of pool rests in the hands of the next generation. How can we set up the industry to interest them?

Its a problem I've been rolling around in my head for a long time and although I have a few ideas none of them are far reaching enough to secure the foundation of the sport.

Anyone got any ideas?

You raise some interesting questions. My question is simply, why does pool need "pro pool"? I can see how leagues benefit the room owners but it is at the moment difficult for me to see how a resurgence in professional pool helps the game overall from a revenue perspective. Is pool something people like to do rather than watch? For the masses, this may be the case.
 
Granted, the obesity rate is growing, but honestly I put the blame on that mainly on TV, fast food and video games. When I was a kid I had a bike, a clubhouse that my dad and I built, I played hide and seek, etc. Most kids today come home from school and turn on the PS3 or Xbox, or Cartoon Network, etc. I applaud the parents that limit their kids' time on stuff like that and don't consider a Happy Meal to be a balanced dinner.

That being said, there are a lot of schools pushing non-aerobic sports/activities. Choir, archery, chess, band, golf.... I don't consider walking that aerobic, although doing it while carrying a tuba......

Schools should also consider pool as a training tool. Physics, geometry, chemistry (can YOU describe exactly what phenolic resin is?), botany (cue wood selection) and philosophy (why won't the @$%^ ball go in the @#$% hole?!?!). Actually, one of the best beginner players I ever saw was a physics major.

No argument here. I think pool would be a great addition to a school's program.

Having just voted on the school budget earlier this week it's fresh in my mind, though. New York state schools have had to work hard to create budgets that stay under the Governor's tax cap. They've been successful but usually at the cost of cutting back some programs and teachers. And so I think that pool in schools is a hard sell; the obesity example is just that, an example of how it could play out at a budget meeting.

Maybe starting at community centers is a better first (maybe half) step in this direction. Either way, you gotta put pool tables in places that kids can go.
 
I know I am repeating myself, but only within my lifetime has tennis become a professional sport. Today the United States Tennis Association ( USTA) is one of the most successful sports organizations in the world. It can be done
but it has to be rid of it's association with gambling, cheating, lying , hustling, drinking, drugs ,shady characters, loose women,and just generally, it's rough reputation.

I personally love it just the way it is. :yeah::lol:
 
I understand it's doing well in some other countries, what is the draw there?

Promotion, Sponsorship, and Organization.

You watch a live stream of pool in the US, (forget TV) and it's primarily an end table in some bar, with people milling around the playing area, some guy stops to talk with his head in front of THE static (and in most cases not even HD) camera, the players are wearing jeans or shorts, and sometimes T shirts,,,,,and on and on,,,,,,there is not much there that sponsors want to pay for, and nothing that sports networks want on their broadcasts.
Compare this with World Snooker,, they actually have a tour schedule, a qualifying school, are very well organized,,,,,,,a championship in World Snooker is a major production,,,,stands full of people, HD cameras that show any number of shot angles, knowledgeable expert commentary in most cases,,,,,,,it's like a Rock Concert,, and the players are all stars. Ronnie O'Sullivan won over $400,000 at the Crucible a few weeks ago, Ali Carter in 2nd place got half that. That one event probably paid out more than all the combined championships in the US for the entire year.
There has to be changes made to US Pool or it's as big as it'll ever be.
For the most part, there is absolutely nowhere for youth to play, or learn to play, unless they are in the very small percentage of homes with a pool table. Why room owners aren't running non-alcohal youth hours,,,,,saturday Morning youth leagues,,,,etc,,,,,,,,is beyond me. This in my view is spawning customers in the future.
The PGA does the same thing, qualifiers, tour schools that teach ettiquette, handling themselves with media in a way that promotes golf as a whole, and teaches them the business end of the game as well, Tour Cards, etc,,,,,,
It's a sad thing that the US has hundreds of the best pool players in the world and there probably aren't more than 10 of them that can survive on their tournament play earnings.
Pool Halls are great, I love being there, and it's a great breeding ground for learning to play, and play competitively, but there has to be more, above that level. There has to be, just like any other sport that is successful, a point where the game is promoted with morals and ettiquette, and at a level where it can give back, an organization that promotes youth play and instruction, therefore promoting the future of the sport itself, and as an organization that gives back, drawing fans to events, which helps local economies, donations to charities, etc,,,,,,as long as all we do is show up and gamble and pass money back and forth between each other nothing is being done to help the sport. The money is just a way of keeping score, and nobody wins all the time.
The problem I see is that everyone in the pool industry is trying to make money on everyone else in the pool industry. Anyone who has ever done any type of succesful business knows you make the most money on other peoples money,,,,,,,,,in other words, what we have is not enough in terms of people involved, promotion, and organization, which in the end, spawn sponsorship.
We have to get more people involved, promote pool better as a whole, get youth involved, sponsors like organization and popularity,,,,,,where else should we start?
 
In this country I have found that in large part pool still has the stereo type of being a dirty, crooked, gamblers game that is played by unsavory types in the back smoke filled room of some speak-easy or illegal moonshine business. Is it perceived like that in other countries?

When ever I tell non pool people that I play pool almost every one asks if i'm a pool shark or a hustler. That's the image most people have.
I think pool rooms offering free water would bring people in by the 1000s. :thumbup:
 
In this country I have found that in large part pool still has the stereo type of being a dirty, crooked, gamblers game that is played by unsavory types in the back smoke filled room of some speak-easy or illegal moonshine business. Is it perceived like that in other countries?

From my observation they love it. Heck, they love the old west, cowboys and Indians, everything American. They find the hustler to just be another colorful character representing Americans. Also, in most pool rooms in Germany and some other countries gambling machines are everywhere and they have no thoughts about making a wager. That was my comment about they didn't know what a hustler was. About the time I was there players like Jimmy Reid, Toby, Big Bob, David Matlock and I am sure others were running around Europe making a killing. They, especially the Germans, were completely naive. They seemed to have no idea what a hustler was.

Some players went over there and won $50,000 or more. I never won near that but I did win a ridiculous amount of money playing players who should never have been betting on any pool game. The biggest difference was they didn't quit for some reason.
To answer your question, they like the mystique of the colorful history of pool. I can't say today because it has been a few years since I have been out of the US. I haven't gone anywhere since 9/11.
 
I think that cheating in handicapped leagues is totally the way to save pool. Thanks for doing your part.

(Post #4 http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=275385)

dld

Lol not needed as its already being covered in the other thread. Go back there to talk trash please there is more than enough room for it.

To clear it up without going on and on... APA fosters cheating and in order to compete in my area (let alone at nationals) sandbagging is just a way of life.

I for one hate sandbagging and thats why I've been looking for ways to get it out of the game.

I'll also bet that there are many people on here that do it too but just don't have the balls to say it.

Anywhoooo back to how we can make pool better....

I agree with making it integral to our school systems. I do not agree with going big to start.

We need a solid place to kick off of and right now we are standing on nothing.

I like the example of tennis- that sport has exploded when no one thought it would.

Bring pool out of the bar and into an organized setting with competitive play starting at a younger age.
 
When ever I tell non pool people that I play pool almost every one asks if i'm a pool shark or a hustler. That's the image most people have.
I think pool rooms offering free water would bring people in by the 1000s. :thumbup:

Not to go offtopic myself but what is this water you speak of?
 
We already have the textbook

Not only an alternative to traditional sports, but also an activity that could be targeted towards the non athletes. Think of the smart nerdy non athletic kids that are good in math and science. The geometry and physics of pool could be used as a tool to teaching. Bank shots, english, friction, tangent lines, throw, etc.. The math and science kids would eat it up. An after school pool/billiards club could be formed with just a cheap used table and a bunch of cues. This could be a whole different target audience in contrast to the typical bar guy pool player.
The Science of Pocket Billiards, by Dr. Jack Koehler. Naturally, we need contributions from Bob Jewett and a few of the other Scientists in our midsts!!! We have no shortage of educational material,nor do we lack Great Coaches who could contribute tremendously. Thanks for posting.
 
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