Willie Hoppe autographed cues

nancewayne

nancewayne

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Most of the mass produced Brunswick "Willie Hoppe" cues were made/used for Pocket Billiards (pool), not for Carom/Billiards. Did Willie Hoppe ever play Pocket Billiards and if so, did he ever win any tournaments in it?

It just seems curious that his name is SO famous and placed on so MANY Brunswick Pool Cues. I've never see his name on a cue built for Carom/Billiards.
 
nancewayne said:
Most of the mass produced Brunswick "Willie Hoppe" cues were made/used for Pocket Billiards (pool), not for Carom/Billiards. Did Willie Hoppe ever play Pocket Billiards and if so, did he ever win any tournaments in it?

It just seems curious that his name is SO famous and placed on so MANY Brunswick Pool Cues. I've never see his name on a cue built for Carom/Billiards.
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Interesting observation. He was only a carom player as far as I know.

Although these days there is a distinct diference between carom and pool cues, it was not so obvious in the past. Pool cues were pretty heavy, short and stiff, so they could reasonably be used for billiards.

In my Brunswick brochures, the 1914 and earlier catalogs don't have a distinction between pool cues and carom cues. In the 1928 catalog, they do have a couple of cues that are designated caroms with the larger joint screw and 55" length. Then in the later catalogs, they abandon the distinction between carom and pool cues - and the "Carom King" cue was actually a pool cue.

http://www.palmercollector.com/Brunswick/BruswickCollectorHomePage.html

Chris
 
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nancewayne said:
Most of the mass produced Brunswick "Willie Hoppe" cues were made/used for Pocket Billiards (pool), not for Carom/Billiards. Did Willie Hoppe ever play Pocket Billiards and if so, did he ever win any tournaments in it?

It just seems curious that his name is SO famous and placed on so MANY Brunswick Pool Cues. I've never see his name on a cue built for Carom/Billiards.
Click to expand...

When these cues were built, that IS what most players were using to
play billiards with.
As most North Americans became aware of Raymond Ceulemans, in the
70's, they changed to his style of cue.
Probably why 'carom' taper is also known as 'euro' taper.

I never played with a proper carom cue till the early 80's...always used
my Joss pool cue....the carom taper is far superior.
 
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I seem to remember that Hoppe never played pocket billiards to any extent and that he looked down on pool and pool players. The quote: "Bums play pool, gentlemen play billiards" has been around a long time and I don't think it was attributed to Hoppe. Hoppe may have played pool a few times, I have his autobiography but can't remember. I never heard that he did, that I can remember.
 
Billiards as it should be played

It just happens that I just got a copy of Billiards as it should be played. In which Mr. Hoppe says in the keynote:

"I had the luck of a good teacher in the game, my father. I was only five years old when I first took to the game. Father had a little hotel at Cornwall-on-the-Hudson, New York, and the hotel had a combination billiard and pocket billiard table. I started on the pocket billiard game and, with my dad's help, made good progress.
We had frequent visits from traveling salesmen, called drummers in those days. When I was about nine years old, one of these salesmen, new to our town, Saw me fooling around on the table and patronizingly offered to play me a game. I obliged. He broke the balls and I ran out the game in the very first inning. He racked up his cue.
"What kind of town is this?" he muttered "I'm better than a green hand at this game, but here the babies can beat me.""

So far this book has been well worth the effort I totally recommend it.
To the original topic of the thread he says:

"The fact that a very heavy cue enables a player to get better distance into a cue ball seems to appeal to most players, who like to see a ball hit allot of cushions. That, of course is the reason a heavier cue is desirable for 3-cushion play. It is necessary to drive the ball further in 3-cushions than in straight-rail, cushion-caroms, balk-line, or pocket billiards.
It is both valuable and interesting to note that all expert professionals use cues of about the same weight and length. Welker Cochrain's is the heaviest cue among the experts, weighing 21 ounces, Jake Schaefer uses a 19 ounce cue. Almost every top flight player of note uses a cue weighing between 19 and 21 ounces. I know of no leading player who uses a cue weighing more than 21 ounces. The average cue weight used by the stars is 20 ounces. I use a cue weighing between 19 1/2 and 19 3/4 ounces."

He goes on to talk about length and other details about cues and their relation to different games. So it appears that it was a topic of discussion if not a codified type.
 
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Ray Schuler also made Carom/3-rail Billiards cues...particularly he made stiff tapered shafts for his Billiards cues which help build his reputation. F.Y.I.

pt109 said:
When these cues were built, that IS what most players were using to play billiards with.
As most North Americans became aware of Raymond Ceulemans, in the
70's, they changed to his style of cue.
Probably why 'carom' taper is also known as 'euro' taper.

I never played with a proper carom cue till the early 80's...always used
my Joss pool cue....the carom taper is far superior.
Click to expand...
 
Hoppe played pockets as a child with brother...

TATE said:
Interesting observation. He was only a carom player as far as I know.

Although these days there is a distinct diference between carom and pool cues, it was not so obvious in the past. Pool cues were pretty heavy, short and stiff, so they could reasonably be used for billiards.

In my Brunswick brochures, the 1914 and earlier catalogs don't have a distinction between pool cues and carom cues. In the 1928 catalog, they do have a couple of cues that are designated caroms with the larger joint screw and 55" length. Then in the later catalogs, they abandon the distinction between carom and pool cues - and the "Carom King" cue was actually a pool cue.

http://www.palmercollector.com/Brunswick/BruswickCollectorHomePage.html

Chris
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I read through 20 years worth of Billiards Magazine from 1915 to 1934. I don't remember Hoppe playing pockets except as a child, then his brother Frank was the only pocket player.
 
"Thirty Years of Billiards" mentions that both Willie and Frank Hoppe began playing Pocket Billiards. When they went to play an exhibition at one of Maurice Daly's rooms in New York City, Daly told Willie: "Willie, that stroke of yours is better adapted to the caroms than the pocket game." This was in the fall of 1895 or 1896. Daly recommended to Willies's father that: "I'd make a carom billiard player out of him." From then on, Willie Hoppe concentrated on Carom Billiards.
 
hunger strike said:
I read through 20 years worth of Billiards Magazine from 1915 to 1934. I don't remember Hoppe playing pockets except as a child, then his brother Frank was the only pocket player.
Click to expand...

Is that your own collection? I'm impressed!

Chris
 
We have a lot of great pool/billiards historians at AZforum! THANKS

Why did Brunswick use the "Willie Hoppe" name on its' line of pool cues?
Was it simply name recognition? IF that was the case (back then), then the next generation of Brunswick autograph cues should have been called, "Willie Mosconi" autograph cues! The only "Willie Mosconi" branded cues I've seen were the inexpensive Taiwanese/Chinese imported cues. I'll acknowledge that the forearms of the more expensive Brunswick Titlist cues were excellent and have become very desirable for conversion cues.
 
Here's one the the first appearances of the Titlist and Willie Hoppe Pro cues - in the 1942 "V" for Victory WWII Brunswick catalog.

http://www.palmercollector.com/Brunswick1942and1951.html

The ad said the Wiille Hoppe Pro is identical to the size, shape and feel of his own tournament cues.

Because of this milestone introduction and the WWII cover, this is one of my coolest catalogs.

Chris
 
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nancewayne said:
Ray Schuler also made Carom/3-rail Billiards cues...particularly he made stiff tapered shafts for his Billiards cues which help build his reputation. F.Y.I.
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Wayne:

That's correct -- and Ray's reputation is still very much alive! Noel Mendoza (whom Ray mentored), is continuing the tradition with "Schuler Cues by Noel Mendoza" as explained and seen here:

http://mendozacues.com/index.html
http://mendozacues.com/SchulerCues.html

I have the Hugo Patino model, but with a pro-tapered pool shaft that's still quite stiff. It's one of my most favorite cues, and is the one I select to use when "it counts" (i.e. tourneys).

A bit off-topic, but I hope this is helpful nonetheless.

-Sean
 
nancewayne said:
Ray Schuler also made Carom/3-rail Billiards cues...particularly he made stiff tapered shafts for his Billiards cues which help build his reputation. F.Y.I.
Click to expand...

My first carom cue, in the early 80's, was by Ray Schuler.
I also had a snooker cue from him, which was a scaled-down version of
a carom cue.
Both cues were excellent.

I tried a Helmstetter in the late 70's....it still resembled a 'Hoppe', with
a thick butt and 13mm tip.Richard was to go to 'Euro' style cues also
and designed an excellent snooker cue, like Ray.
 
Willy was a great Pocket Billiards player.

hunger strike said:
I read through 20 years worth of Billiards Magazine from 1915 to 1934. I don't remember Hoppe playing pockets except as a child, then his brother Frank was the only pocket player.
Click to expand...

Suggest you read, "Billiards As It Should Be Played" written by Willie Hoppe and published in 1941.

On page 25, Willie explains how he aims, making a point of his method of looking at the cue ball last. One of his fellow pros wanted to bet him otherwise. Willie's response was, it didn't matter. Willie never wagered on his game. (Kinda like the Ralph Souquet of his era)... He goes on to write, and I quote directly from his book, "Speaking of wagering, reminds me of a most humorous incident. Charley Petersonand I were on one of our numerous tours several years ago. We landed in Spokane for an exhibition. Before we started playing, an Indian Chief in magnificent regalia, strode up to Peterson.
Evidently he thought Charley was my manager. "My son is a very good player", he informed Pete in excellent English. "I would like to arrange a game between Mr. Hoppe and my son at the conclusion of his match - say 250 points for a side bet of ten thousand dollars.

Pete didn't know what to say. He knew I didn't bet on my own game and neither did he. We both started to worry about how to evade the issue without appearing pikers. We started our match without saying anything further to the Chief. After the completion of the exhibition , I slyly glanced over toward where the Indians were sitting, but they were gone.

I happened to make a run of 246 that evening. Which again proves, never bet a man at his own game.

Hope this answers the question whether Willie played pocket billiards. I don't know of many players before or after Willie that could run 246 balls.

CrossSideLarry
 
CrossSideLarry said:
Suggest you read, "Billiards As It Should Be Played" written by Willie Hoppe and published in 1941.

On page 25, Willie explains how he aims, making a point of his method of looking at the cue ball last. One of his fellow pros wanted to bet him otherwise. Willie's response was, it didn't matter. Willie never wagered on his game. (Kinda like the Ralph Souquet of his era)... He goes on to write, and I quote directly from his book, "Speaking of wagering, reminds me of a most humorous incident. Charley Petersonand I were on one of our numerous tours several years ago. We landed in Spokane for an exhibition. Before we started playing, an Indian Chief in magnificent regalia, strode up to Peterson.
Evidently he thought Charley was my manager. "My son is a very good player", he informed Pete in excellent English. "I would like to arrange a game between Mr. Hoppe and my son at the conclusion of his match - say 250 points for a side bet of ten thousand dollars.

Pete didn't know what to say. He knew I didn't bet on my own game and neither did he. We both started to worry about how to evade the issue without appearing pikers. We started our match without saying anything further to the Chief. After the completion of the exhibition , I slyly glanced over toward where the Indians were sitting, but they were gone.

I happened to make a run of 246 that evening. Which again proves, never bet a man at his own game.

Hope this answers the question whether Willie played pocket billiards. I don't know of many players before or after Willie that could run 246 balls.

CrossSideLarry
Click to expand...

I own that book also...haven't opened it for a long time.

But I assume they were playing 'straight rail billiards'.....
...not 'straight pool'

I was always surprised that Peterson didn't gamble.
He was the man who used to say "Show me a shot I can't make."
 
pt109 said:
I own that book also...haven't opened it for a long time.

But I assume they were playing 'straight rail billiards'.....
...not 'straight pool'

I was always surprised that Peterson didn't gamble.
He was the man who used to say "Show me a shot I can't make."
Click to expand...

They were. Nothing was said about pocket billiards.
 
Willie did dabble in 'English Billiards' for a while, which does involve the use of pockets per say. But its not really considered a pocket game. I think it was 1914 that he played Inman for an English Billiards world title and lost.
 
CrossSideLarry said:
Suggest you read, "Billiards As It Should Be Played" written by Willie Hoppe and published in 1941.

On page 25, Willie explains how he aims, making a point of his method of looking at the cue ball last. One of his fellow pros wanted to bet him otherwise. Willie's response was, it didn't matter. Willie never wagered on his game. (Kinda like the Ralph Souquet of his era)... He goes on to write, and I quote directly from his book, "Speaking of wagering, reminds me of a most humorous incident. Charley Petersonand I were on one of our numerous tours several years ago. We landed in Spokane for an exhibition. Before we started playing, an Indian Chief in magnificent regalia, strode up to Peterson.
Evidently he thought Charley was my manager. "My son is a very good player", he informed Pete in excellent English. "I would like to arrange a game between Mr. Hoppe and my son at the conclusion of his match - say 250 points for a side bet of ten thousand dollars.

Pete didn't know what to say. He knew I didn't bet on my own game and neither did he. We both started to worry about how to evade the issue without appearing pikers. We started our match without saying anything further to the Chief. After the completion of the exhibition , I slyly glanced over toward where the Indians were sitting, but they were gone.

I happened to make a run of 246 that evening. Which again proves, never bet a man at his own game.

Hope this answers the question whether Willie played pocket billiards. I don't know of many players before or after Willie that could run 246 balls.

CrossSideLarry
Click to expand...

Again, this is probably Straight Rail Billiards, possibly Balk Line, but I think not. I don't remember anything in the book {which I own} about this being Pocket Billiards.
 
I believe I read it in one of Robert Byrne's books (or not), that Hoppe finished top five in 14.1 at the World Championships (one of the times that Mosconi won). Mosconi was also a strong billiards player, just not up to Hoppe's level.
 
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