Willie Mosconi's High Run
- Thread starter oceanweb
- Start date
tedkaufman said:
Ted, thanks for the wonderfully informative post. Mosconi did seem to be a very serious man. I'm reading a book called Hustler Days in which they mention the championship match against Luther Lassiter in which Mosconi won. In the book they say Mosconi would try to hate his opponents and think of them as someone trying to take bread from his hands. I'm going to have to try that. Again thanks for a great post you sound very knowledgable. Please share some more of these precious stories. Philw
john schmidt said:
Hello John, that 's a great post honest and insightful and a player with your talent knows what a challange that would be to run 527+. There are some that try to minimze Willie's run because of table size etc....I think that is very sad.
Anyway I hope all is well with you and it looks like you may have to start putting in a little extra practice time for that 527, I would love to see that run.
Scott
NYC cue dude
Banned
One can't leave Thomas "lean Machine" Engert out of the mix. Thomas I beleive has the modern day "record" of 491 on a 9 footer.
Thorsten's run was 404.
As far as mosconi is concerned, 526 is an incredible feat.
Billiards digest magazine ran an article last year about willie's exhibits. He often gave over 200 exhibits a year, and in most cases he ran his 150 and STOPPED. The only reason he continued on the eventuall record run, the people and room owner begged him to shoot until he missed. The article was interesting in that they made a chart (don't rememeber) exactly, on the odds that if he would have continued shooting until he missed at every exhibition, he would have surely bested his record.
On a side note, a few years ago, i met an old timer here in NY who used to own a room. He remebers having willie do an exhibition and being told to "grind down the slate" at the opening of each pocket over an inch. Brunswick supported this knowing it made running balls easier. Supposedly very few of willies runs ended by balls "jawing" in the pockets.
rg
Thorsten's run was 404.
As far as mosconi is concerned, 526 is an incredible feat.
Billiards digest magazine ran an article last year about willie's exhibits. He often gave over 200 exhibits a year, and in most cases he ran his 150 and STOPPED. The only reason he continued on the eventuall record run, the people and room owner begged him to shoot until he missed. The article was interesting in that they made a chart (don't rememeber) exactly, on the odds that if he would have continued shooting until he missed at every exhibition, he would have surely bested his record.
On a side note, a few years ago, i met an old timer here in NY who used to own a room. He remebers having willie do an exhibition and being told to "grind down the slate" at the opening of each pocket over an inch. Brunswick supported this knowing it made running balls easier. Supposedly very few of willies runs ended by balls "jawing" in the pockets.
rg
Last edited:
NYC cue dude
Banned
tedkaufman said:
Great post ted,
I knew George very well, and liked him very much. He taught me how to play 14.1, but more importantly, he taught me how to appreciate it.
Unfortuntately, he was rarely sober, but when he was, he could play. He set the high run at chelsea with a 330. I once racked for him during a 300 ball run while ervolino looked on.
rg
I happen to agree with this
I do believe athletes are more capable of doing it to today than back in the day, although yes, we dont play as much straight pool anymore. I think because playing conditions may be better today and because players may be healthier, not to mention we're not living during the depression, means it could be broken. Obviously it wouldn't be easy, and there would have to be a monetary objective and reward along with breaking the record, but it would be done. Records will always be broken. Of all the people playing pool in the world, with the population larger than ever, there are a lot of potentially great players out there. Wu Chia Ching is an example of that. There will always be better down the road of evolution.
DJKeys said:
I do believe athletes are more capable of doing it to today than back in the day, although yes, we dont play as much straight pool anymore. I think because playing conditions may be better today and because players may be healthier, not to mention we're not living during the depression, means it could be broken. Obviously it wouldn't be easy, and there would have to be a monetary objective and reward along with breaking the record, but it would be done. Records will always be broken. Of all the people playing pool in the world, with the population larger than ever, there are a lot of potentially great players out there. Wu Chia Ching is an example of that. There will always be better down the road of evolution.
DJKeys said:
It might be broken, but I don't believe it's a given that it would be. Straight pool was "the" game longer than 9-ball has been and the record wasn't officially broken during all that time. Straight pool wasn't just played in the 50's and 60's. Greenleaf won his first championship in 1919. That tells me that they were playing straight pool as far back as the 1910's, at least. 526 is the official record that was produced from those 60-something years when 14.1 was the game everyone played. Perhaps one of our resident billiard historians can clarify just how long straight pool was the game of choice among players.
My point here, in case it isn't obvious, is that some *great* straight pool players came and went during all that time and no one, officially, beat that high run - and they had 60 (maybe more?) years to do it. If straight pool were the game today, that record *might* be broken, just like any record might be broken, but it's hardly a given that someone would break it.
Mike Eufemia and Babe Cranfield (and others?) both, allegedly, had higher runs than 526 but neither stands as the "official high run" for the reasons that others here have already posted.
boy im posting alot
wow this is like my 40th post lifetime,i need to start playing pool instead of talking about it.now this is just my opinion but i hear people say the players of today are and should be better than the guys from the old days.i kind of disagree ,take mosconi for instance .theres no way that the guys of today or tommorrow would play better than him ,there would just be more who play like him.efren at one hole ,50 years from now there might be 25 guys who play one hole or pool in general as good as him.but i dont see how they could play better.i mean you can only get so good at something. the way pool is going an growing in 10 or twenty years you are going to have to play like johnny archer just to survive on tour instead of dominating the tour.
wow this is like my 40th post lifetime,i need to start playing pool instead of talking about it.now this is just my opinion but i hear people say the players of today are and should be better than the guys from the old days.i kind of disagree ,take mosconi for instance .theres no way that the guys of today or tommorrow would play better than him ,there would just be more who play like him.efren at one hole ,50 years from now there might be 25 guys who play one hole or pool in general as good as him.but i dont see how they could play better.i mean you can only get so good at something. the way pool is going an growing in 10 or twenty years you are going to have to play like johnny archer just to survive on tour instead of dominating the tour.
D
Danny Harriman
Guest
I have heard the rumor about a Mike Uephemia defeating Masconi's record on the nine foot, I would say that the pockets were probably large when Mike made the run. Because of the smaller area of the 4x8 there would have to be more congestion with the rack, granted the long shot would be more difficult on the 9ft. I think under certain conditions that Willie's run on a 4x8 would be as respectable or more than that of a 9ft that has fast cloth and soft pockets. It has allway's been a goal of mine to break Mascon's record, through time and many hours of practice I have decided to make this a long-term goal. If this fellow Mike really did run 606 or whatever than I tip my hat to him, I thought the run that Thomas Engert ran was terrific. In Germany there are many great 14.1 players, I don't know if Uephemia ran all those balls but it does sound like he was capable of dabb'n it. Either way in my opinion Masconi will live on as one of the most fierce competetors ever to play the game.
Sincerely, Danny Harriman
Sincerely, Danny Harriman
Danny Harriman said:
I agree...Mosconi will live on. Legends do that. Babe Ruth's home run record was broken. Then came the "yeah, but" comments. The same will happen if Mosconi's record is broken. I'm sure not saying this to discourage Danny and others from trying though. More power to those with the skill to even attempt it!
In the manuscript of his book on straight pool, Mike Eufemia details his claim of running 625 balls in exhibition on a 9-foot table. The claim was not accepted as a recognized record because of insufficient documentation.Danny Harriman said:
Someone else above seemed to have claimed that Mosconi ran more than 526 several times in exhibitions. Until they provide dates, locations and run lengths -- and preferably written confirmation -- I have to believe that no such run ever occurred because I've never even heard a rumor of such a run.
The consensus among the old-timers was that in a long match, Mosconi would have to give up at least 30% (like 1000-700) to make the match even against the next-best players of the era.tedkaufman said:
As for the likelihood of long runs based solely on statistics, see the June 2006 article at http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html One of the conclusions there is that if Mosconi had continued his runs past the nominal 150 or 200, he would have had several runs over 500 during his exhibition career.
Hey John, how big a role do you think concentration plays in being a great straight pool player? There are a lot of very talented players today, but have they developed the mental game to allow them to focus for long periods of time the way the old timers did?
I'm a Misconi supporter. I believe that a high run is the only real measure of proving your pool skills. That or how many racks you can break and run but everyone knows that there is way too much luck in getting a good shot on the one ball to go by that.
I would think that just the prestige of holding that record would be incentive enough to bear down and practice straight pool runs. I believe that top players secretly have and have given up because of the difficulty. Now with time stamp video technology you could make your attempts at any pool hall with a video camera and prove to the pool world that you did it.
The truth is Misconi was amazing. I just don't think there needs to be a million dollar incentive to get all these modern day pool players to go for the record when they have these egos that would fuel the fire to prove that they can do it. I think many have tried and failed that's all.
I would think that just the prestige of holding that record would be incentive enough to bear down and practice straight pool runs. I believe that top players secretly have and have given up because of the difficulty. Now with time stamp video technology you could make your attempts at any pool hall with a video camera and prove to the pool world that you did it.
The truth is Misconi was amazing. I just don't think there needs to be a million dollar incentive to get all these modern day pool players to go for the record when they have these egos that would fuel the fire to prove that they can do it. I think many have tried and failed that's all.