Willie Mosconi's High Run

[jimmyg]

Thanks, Randy.

I've been meaning for some time to thank you, too, for your efforts to promote straight pool events. I didn't have the opportunity to make it to NJ for the fabulous tournament you were involved with last summer. I may make it this year, though.

I had heard about George's 300+ run, but I missed it. Interesting that Ervolino watched. They would watch each other, and clearly respected each other's game, but I never saw them match up, even for fun. I once sat with George watching Johnny run 100 on that super tight (3.5" pocket) table downstairs with Simonis 300 cloth. I've never, before or since, played on a table so difficult. When Johnny's run ended, George remarked it was one of the most impressive run he'd ever seen. I was astounded. I doubt I ever broke 20 on that table.

I began taking straight pool lessons with George at Jullians in the early 80's. Eventually, we started playing matches; I'd go to 65, George to 100. I never beat him, despite once running a 51 from the opening break. Our daily matches ended when George went on one of his many benders.

Funny story about George. During one of his major drinking binges, he came home on a hot summer night and decided to perch on the second floor window sill of his apartment, where he promptly passed out. Before long he rolled off the window ledge and crashed to the street, right on top of a stack of plastic garbage bags. Other than a few scrapes, he was unharmed.

I also racked many times for George's runs at Chelsea. I loved to watch him play straight pool. His patterns were the simplest and most logical I've ever seen. A lot of us from Julians and Chelsea, including Vinnie, Paul Scheider, Frank Bono, Butch, Ginky and certainly myself, learned a great deal from George's mastery and willingness to share.

Those who only knew George from Chelsea probably never got to see him play 3c. George may have been an even better 3c player than a straight pool player. He was phenominal at 3c. Perhaps owing to the miserable tables at Julians, George had an effortless, yet tremendously powerful stroke.

And one day at Julians, Danny Diliberto popped in and played George 60 games of 1-pocket, ending 31-29, George. This was when Danny was in his prime, too.

It's hard to imagine what George may have achieved in pool had his talents not been diluted by alcohol. He's surely among a handful of the greatest pool and billiard talents I've ever seen. We miss you, George ...

I recall back in the late sixtys often going up to Julian's on East 14th Street, which was George's home room before Chealsea, and where he reigned as a hero and pool legend. He was constantly running 100's in straight pool. I recall him also playing a very good three cushion, and snooker game as well.

I was only a kid and I don't remember any particuliar matches, but there was always some well known players that would venture up the stairs to play George at Julians. Crowds would always gather around whenever he was playing. He was awsome. Also a real nice guy, never became real "friends" with him, but he was always a gentleman and respectful, and would always exchange a friendly "hi" and , "how are you playing?" with him.

It was years later, 1998, or so, when I became friendly with an old timer, "Trick Shot" Monty, (Ted, Did you know Monty?) that used to spend a lot of time at Julians and knew George very well that I even learned George's last name. Monty, who was quite remarkable at three cushion and awsome at trick shots, thought that George may have been one of the most talented players ever. He also mentioned that George had passed away in a rather unfortunate manner.

The one thing that was always said about George, even back then, was that he was not as good a player when it came to high stakes gambling. For time, and small stakes, he was definitely a "world beater".

Rest in peace, George.

Jim

 

[Robertduke]

....

the first time efren ever played 14.1 was in maine at spotshots in 1995.
rempe, sigel, miz, earl, everyone was there.
not only did reyes win the tourney, he had the high run of 139, and he had never even played before.
he was learning as he went. he didnt even know all the rules.

no doubt in my mind efren could beat the record......smash it even.

feats like this is why efren is the greatest player to ever live.


chris G

Give me a break. Are you saying that Efren is better at Straights than Mosconi.. YOu gota be joking... He couldnt break it.. but thats just my thoughts

 

[Takumi4G63]

I think Mosconi's record has held because it's a hell of a lot harder to sustain a long run than people think. For a great player, getting to 100 is not so uncommon. A late friend of mine, George Mikula, did it nearly everyday in NYC. Getting to 200 is a lot less common. George would do that every week or so. Reaching 300 is phenominal. I never saw George get past about 275. And George was a superb straight pool technician, as well as a world class 3c player. 9-ball was child's play for George.

As for Mosconi, I saw him give two live exhibitions. In the first, he ran 57 and scratched when a ball kicked the cueball in. At his next turn to the table, he ran 93 and out. He turned to the audience and asked if we wished to see him run 150. Of course we all said, yes. So he did. Then he stopped and did trick shots.

The second exhibition, he ran 150 and out from the opening break. Then he asked if we wanted to see him run to 200. We did, and he did it. Then he ended his run, unfinished, and did trick shots. The table was a standard 4.5x9 Brunswich GC. I don't recall the pocket size, but I played on it a lot when I was in college and it was neither tight nor loose playing.

Anyone who questions Mosconi's genius never saw him play, and damn sure never played against him. I've heard many who knew him say he was tempermental, a prima donna and an irascible *****. I don't know if those claims are true or not, but I don't know anyone who saw him anywhere close to his prime who would challenge his greatness. And I never even heard of another player who could claim to beat him head to head ... excluding "Minnesota Fats" for obvious reasons.

As for a modern player besting Mosconi's run, I think John Schmit, Thorsten Holman or Danny Edwards might have a chance. Possibly Sigel in his prime, had he concentrated on straight pool. Reyes, as great as he is, would be a very unlikely choice. He has too many lapses and doesn't know straight pool well enough.

I think you're absolutely correct. I think it's pretty naive to think that within a few months someone would run 527 without too much problem in a contest like that.

 

[Takumi4G63]

I had heard about George's 300+ run, but I missed it. Interesting that Ervolino watched. They would watch each other, and clearly respected each other's game, but I never saw them match up, even for fun. I once sat with George watching Johnny run 100 on that super tight (3.5" pocket) table downstairs with Simonis 300 cloth. I've never, before or since, played on a table so difficult. When Johnny's run ended, George remarked it was one of the most impressive run he'd ever seen. I was astounded. I doubt I ever broke 20 on that table.

That's incredible. Can you even make a rail shot on that? Is that 3.5" point to point?

 

[tiptoety]

It's funny that even when straight pool was popular no one officially beat Mosconi's run. Problem with beating the record now is that the fame and respect for Mosconi's run will still outbeat any guy who breaks the record. Plus Mosconi's not here to outbeat the record breaker. What's the point if someone makes it to 527? They undoubltly won't be loved and respected like Mosconi has been for all these decades. You guys aren't catching the point of how many other factors were involved and just fell into place for that run to become as famous as it has. If Caras had the record high run do you think there would be as much commotion and discussion about it? Ooooh Caras ran over 500 balls. George ran back to back 400's, Alison Fisher broke a record. WoooHoo. But the fact that MOSCONI did it makes it that much more important. Let him have that as a memory that will last forever.

Perhaps the fact that no one is attempting to beat the record "officially" is simply because of the respect they have for Mosconi's legacy. If i ran 600 balls tonight, I don't think I'd call the papers up. It's not my place to try to outdo a legend. (for a million i'd have my sister call

And to Mosconi - "You Go Boy!!"

 

[dabarbr]

I just want to point out that I have an excuse for posting so much. I'm in front of a computer 8 hours a day.

Hey Jimmy, get your butt off that computer and get to practicing. I think you have the tools to break that record.

 

[Ron Cook]

Eufemia high run ..............

In the manuscript of his book on straight pool, Mike Eufemia details his claim of running 625 balls in exhibition on a 9-foot table. The claim was not accepted as a recognized record because of insufficient documentation.

Someone else above seemed to have claimed that Mosconi ran more than 526 several times in exhibitions. Until they provide dates, locations and run lengths -- and preferably written confirmation -- I have to believe that no such run ever occurred because I've never even heard a rumor of such a run.

I met a old timer in Reno from New York and he was coming to Reno to watch the tournament there for the last 15 years and never missed a tournament. He told me that Mike Eufemia did run 625 balls on a 4 1/2 x 9' table and he is the one that had the Affidavit in his hands for there were several witnesses that had seen the run and signed the Affidavit. This guy I talked to actually took the document to the Billiard Congress of America or mailed it to them but I don't remember the outcome. Apparantly, the high run Eufemia made may not have been officially recognized by BCA for what ever reason I do not know.

 

[cuejoey]

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk here. If some one or a group offered $1,000,000 to any one who beat it, and made the requirements fair (like the table that John Schmidt did his 400 on), there would be a new millianare within a couple of months. This is just my opinion...

Oh, by the way, I would pay a hundred towards the tape .

Billiardpete out

You have a very good point here Pete..also the person could very well be an unknown..i have heard many stories from different people about the unknown/unfounded talent especially in New York.where these people just play to play they could care less about tournaments,trophies,write ups ect.now all we need is to find a rich stake horse ! lol

 

[harthpg]

Mosconi's High Run

Anybody who believes that Mosconi couldn't run more than 526 has never seen him play. The 1st time I saw him was at the Guys and Dolls in Queens, NY. After giving his opponent an 8-ball break (which the guy missed) he proceeded to run 123 and then mis-cued while shooting over a couple of balls. The other guy ran 6 and then Willie ran out. After his last shot he apologized to the crowd then the owner ran up and explained that this Thursday night exhibition was his 4th that week and the first time he did not run 150. I know it's not the same but 150 times 3 plus 123 is 573 (on a 4.5 X 9 Gold Crown). How many people have run 100 twice in a row.

I was glad he missed because up to then it was boring, most of the balls did not hit the back of the pocket and position "just happened". On the last 27 though he started to "free stroke", he would hit the ball hard and let the cue ball run,often hitting 2 or 3 rails, he would walk in the opposite direction and stop while the cue ball was still in motion and it would stop so he could should again without moving. I did this once but not 27 times with a crowd.
There are several accounts of him running near 600 and stopping.

Maybe some of today's players could beat him occasionaly in a 150 point match but extend it to 1000 or a race to 10 ain't no way. Willie was the best.

 

[uwate]

I was glad he missed because up to then it was boring, most of the balls did not hit the back of the pocket and position "just happened". On the last 27 though he started to "free stroke", he would hit the ball hard and let the cue ball run,often hitting 2 or 3 rails, he would walk in the opposite direction and stop while the cue ball was still in motion and it would stop so he could should again without moving. I did this once but not 27 times with a crowd.

Hey great post! Its always interesting to hear first hand accounts. +rep for you sir!

 

[Dan White]

In the manuscript of his book on straight pool, Mike Eufemia details his claim of running 625 balls in exhibition on a 9-foot table. The claim was not accepted as a recognized record because of insufficient documentation.

Someone else above seemed to have claimed that Mosconi ran more than 526 several times in exhibitions. Until they provide dates, locations and run lengths -- and preferably written confirmation -- I have to believe that no such run ever occurred because I've never even heard a rumor of such a run.

I know this is a very old thread, but the subject is still interesting. I wanted to put a comment out there for the record. As I've mentioned before, my father had some business with Mosconi in the late 60's. My father sat with him in a cafeteria at Princeton before one of his exhibitions. For some reason the subject of Minnesota Fats came up, and of course Mosconi became quite animated. My father recalls him saying something close to, "There's no way Fats can beat me. I've run 604 balls!" My father's recall of the meeting seems very clear, and I see no reason for Mosconi to make up a number like that when he hasn't even been asked about his high run.

I also find it interesting that this thread could have been started yesterday and not over 7 years ago!

 

[markgw]

And there is the story of Johnny Archer winning a straight pool event depite having played stright pool for the first time. He ran 150 and out in the finals and upon encourgement to continue he ran to 195.

I was at this event. Grady Matthew's was staying at my hotel and him and Jimmy Fusco walked me to the event. It was in Cleveland. I didn't see the Archer match but did hear about the run. I saw several other matches though. Grady ran 115 and lost his match to Mizerak and I also saw Lou Butera play someone but can't remember who

 

[Bob Jewett]

... My father recalls him saying something close to, "There's no way Fats can beat me. I've run 604 balls!" My father's recall of the meeting seems very clear, and I see no reason for Mosconi to make up a number like that when he hasn't even been asked about his high run. ..

I'm willing to believe that Mosconi ran 604. He just did not do it under circumstances that would make it a record in the same way that his 526 is a record. I also believe that Cranfield did, in fact, run 768 in practice. But he did not do it in any sort of exhibition. I wish I knew more about Eufemia's 625 but all I have to go on is his book and some related comments by Cue Ball Kelly.

 

[AtLarge]

... I wish I knew more about Eufemia's 625 but all I have to go on is his book and some related comments by Cue Ball Kelly.

I've read more than once that Eufemia's run was not recognized as the official record because no one but Eufemia saw it from beginning to end. Yet Eufemia's book draft says it was an exhibition match (not a practice session) with a "standing-room only audience." Those accounts certainly seem inconsistent. Too bad no one at Eufemia's exhibition thought to create a witness affidavit like was done at Mosconi's exhibition.

Edit: Post #67 above says there was an affidavit for the Eufemia run!?!?

 

[Dan White]

I'm willing to believe that Mosconi ran 604. He just did not do it under circumstances that would make it a record in the same way that his 526 is a record. I also believe that Cranfield did, in fact, run 768 in practice. But he did not do it in any sort of exhibition. I wish I knew more about Eufemia's 625 but all I have to go on is his book and some related comments by Cue Ball Kelly.

Bob - Have you ever talked to Pete Tascarella about Euphemia? He knew him well and may know something about the 625.

 

[bstroud]

And there is the story of Johnny Archer winning a straight pool event depite having played stright pool for the first time. He ran 150 and out in the finals and upon encourgement to continue he ran to 195.

He was playing Varner.
I was there watching.

Bill S.

 

[Dan White]

Copied from 14.1 Forum

Personally, I don't see what the fuss is all about when it comes to Mosconi's run. It was done in playing conditions not befitting pro level play.

In golf, there have been a few different players that have shot 55, but who shot but these rounds is relatively unknown. On the PGA, tour, the record is 59. Do you think anyone would care if Rory Mcilroy shot 57 playing an easy golf course with his friends?

Mosconi's 526 was publicized because it suited his sponsor Brunswick. I don't think the run belongs in the record books, and I feel the same of Cranfield's 768 run in practice.

Technically speaking I'm sure you are correct. It does seem odd that an "official BCA record" is only that because of an affadavit, and having nothing really to do with the pro tour. But how boring is it to only have official high runs that are a result of tournament play that are necessarily truncated at 150 or 152 balls, Darren Appleton notwithstanding? It's like racing a jet car on the Bonneville salt flats that has a top speed near 600 mph, but it is only allowed to travel up to 150 mph because of the speed limit. Big runs are just awe inspiring whether it be 526 on a pro-8 or 604 on a 9' Brunswick, or 625 on whatever table.

Look at the ridiculous baseball statistic of lifetime home runs. Ball parks have vastly different outfield dimensions, so I think you can only read so much into those figures. The guy with the most home runs isn't necessarily the best home run hitter. It doesn't matter, though. People want to hear about the big numbers.

 

[sjm]

Technically speaking I'm sure you are correct. It does seem odd that an "official BCA record" is only that because of an affadavit, and having nothing really to do with the pro tour. But how boring is it to only have official high runs that are a result of tournament play that are necessarily truncated at 150 or 152 balls, Darren Appleton notwithstanding?

Disagree. A feat performed at less than the highest level of competition is tainted. Few know that Joe DiMaggio had a 61 game hitting streak in minor league baseball, and just as few care. The feat, performed in legitimate professional competition, is not fit for comparison with his 56 game hitting streak, which came at the highest level of competition under conditions befitting the most accomplished professionals. Similarly, Mosconi's run of 526 on 5 1/2 inch pockets should have been unworthy of consideration for the record.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

Disagree. A feat performed at less than the highest level of competition is tainted. Few know that Joe DiMaggio had a 61 game hitting streak in minor league baseball, and just as few care. The feat, performed in legitimate professional competition, is not fit for comparison with his 56 game hitting streak, which came at the highest level of competition under conditions befitting the most accomplished professionals. Similarly, Mosconi's run of 526 on 5 1/2 inch pockets should have been unworthy of consideration for the record.

I ran 137 one time in my basement.

But my high run is 12 cause my buddy Bubba watched and I videoed his testament.

It's my official high run. :grin-square:

 

[sjm]

I ran 137 one time in my basement.

But my high run is 12 cause my buddy Bubba watched and I videoed his testament.

It's my official high run. :grin-square:

Unless you have that twelve ball run on tape or you have a signed affidavit attesting to the feat, I'm not buying it.