Women in U.S. Open

[blah blah]

What do you realllly want to talk about, Bola?

Bola Ocho, you're dancing around whatever it is that you really want to say.

If you want to say that on the whole, men play better than women, fine. Say that.

If you want to say that men naturally play better than women, and always will, fine. Say that.

You hinted early on that women playing in the Open would just make the open into a pressure cooker circus with slow play, poor play, and embarrassing acts of playing to the crowd. Is that your point or just another side track?

You make so many sideways remarks, on so many facets of the discussion, that I have seriously wondered today if you're trying to stir up some action, make some side action, get personal attention, or maybe just fight your own boredom til the weekend starts.

Yes, I can read. I just want to know: what exactly you would like to talk about here? You're just running in circles pushing everybody's buttons like a madman in a robot museum.

And then here, finally, it suddenly sounds like you've finally got something new or interesting to say:

A test to determine if it's just a matter of environment could happen if a female player came around, a young one in teens, that is showing great talent. Like Jasmin, but ..... she was only interested in playing with the men. No women's tour. No playing other women ever. Strictly play men and always playing good players. With the goal to be a great among them. The level she has to compete against is always the men. Would she develop into a professional with the skill set comparable to the men?

Good question. If that's true. If it happened. Then it would turn out that the creation of women's and ladies tours actually hurt women. Held them back. Stunted their progress by limiting their exposure to themselves. Not just in pool, but in many other sports and games. Remember, women's leagues, tours etcetera were made to keep men out. Not the other way around. Just like a B tournament. The A players didn't create B tournaments because they didn't want the weaker B players around. B tournaments are created to protect B players from the better A players so the B can win.

Does separating women from men make women lazier players? I don't know. It's interesting to think about. And it's definitely an argument for more gender blind Open tournaments.

But maybe you're just on another button- pushing mania.

It's so hard to tell.

 

[JohnGalt]

if u r gonna say that then u have to back it up with facts

Here are some facts for you Brian:
Men, on average, weigh more than women
Men, on average, are taller than women
Men, on average, die at a younger age than women
Men, on average, are physically stronger than women
Men, on average, literally speak less words in a day than women
Men, on average, are less empathetic than women

Are any of these opinions? No, they are facts. Do I think that any of these things make men better than women? Absolutely not. Before you try to attack me, notice that these statements are based on averages. Of course, some women are taller than some men. Of course, some women are stronger than some men. Of course, some men talk more than women. (Sorry, that stat is not a jab, its actually been studied)These are averages based on our genders as a whole.

Regardless of whether you like it or not, our genders are different, in case you have not noticed. I do not think either gender is better than the other, that is a matter of opinion. I believe the problem is that Politically Correct people insist that we act as if all people are equal, when we are not. We have different qualities, good and bad. We should all be treated equally, but we are not all equal in all regards. Same thing holds true if you look just within one gender or the other. All men are not equal. All women are not equal. Every person on this planet has different qualities, which is a great thing. Some people possess a genius intellect. Some people run really, really fast. Some people have horrible gas. Yes, everyone should be treated equally, but we should also learn to embrace our differences. Trust me, I do not hate women, or anyone else for that matter.

I do not know what causes the current talent gap in pool, at the highest levels. I am not speculating as to the causes. I am merely of the opinion that this is the current state of affairs.

I also do not think that a person without a college education will ever be president of the USA in the future. Does that mean I hate people that don't go to college?

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I haven't read this thread so if I am repeating something please don't flame me.

If I am not mistaken anybody can play in the US Open as long as the entry fee is paid. With that said, in previous years a male player who isn't good at the game could play in the tournament. Obviously the best female players in the world would crush a B player who gets a hair up his ass to play in the US Open.

I just don't get how this will have any sort of negative impact on the tournament since you could have males in the field that are much worse players than the females that are going to play.

 

[pocketspeed]

yes i dont dispute the fact that there are obvious difference btwn men and women. one thing that i have always appreciated about pool is that what makes you a good player, unlike so many other sports, is not dependent on the areas where a man may have generally speaking an advantage, i.e. generally greater muscle mass, making males, generally, stronger. therefore given similiar circumstances pool should be the one sport that could be "genderless" if you will.

i also dont dispute that right now the top female pros do not play as well as the top tier male pros (although i do think a few females can cash in the open) right now. however given the incentive i do believe that in the future they can. to say that top tier female pros will never be able to consistently complete with top tier male pros just b/c of their inherent "femaleness" (as to op apparently believes) does smack of misogyny does it not?

brian

 

[Scott Lee]

JohnGalt...I'm sorry, but you're mistaken here. NOBODY in 80 posts said that they believe the top 64 women could compete equally with the top 64 men. What both you and Bola have said, is that NO woman can compete with any of the top men (IIRC, the number was listed at top 50 men). That's just plain silly...and there aren't 3 or 4...there are (at least) a couple of dozen women that have the skill to compete at a high level (let's call it 'runout status'...since you can't play any better than run out). I don't think you're a bad person. I just think you have a misguided opinion...however, you're entitled to express it. It's still a free country!

The majority of posters and readers here love pool, and would love to see it's 'status' raised to a point where the best players could make a nice living playing it (like in many other sports that require skill and intelligence). Having men and women playing together is a shortcut path to that end (at least most of us want to believe that). The men have floundered for decades, while the women have steadfastly remained visible (and united) on t.v. (at least until very recently). IMO, there are far too many 'chauvinists' out there, who still believe a woman's place is in the kitchen (or the bedroom). Fortunately, the chauvinists are now in the minority...as opposed to 40 yrs ago, when the were the majority of male public opinion.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Like Boca, I have met many people who are under the impression that the 64 women on tour can compete with the top 64 men on a regular, competitive basis. If I don't agree with that, why does that make me a bad person?

 

[LAlouie]

i think this is mostly b/c of opportunity. female pros train to defeat their competition which up to this point has mostly been other female pros on the wpba.

brian

Stop this nonsense of making excuses for women They flat out play at an inferior level to the men. Many many top women, in fact, train with men.

 

[pocketspeed]

Stop this nonsense of making excuses for women They flat out play at an inferior level to the men. Many many top women, in fact, train with men.[/QUO

not making excuses. just stating facts. what do you feel is the reason for their inferior play?

brian

 

[jay helfert]

well, i know one thing. i certainly hope that a girl doesn't win the open.

the horror, the horror!

it would be cataclysmic ... the law of gravity would be repealed, lions would lie down with lambs, mideast peace would break out, oceans would recede and california would balance its budget!

please kneel down with me, brothers and sisters, we can't take a chance on the end to life as we know it!

sunny

BEAUTIFUL! Simply beautiful! :thumbup:

 

[JohnGalt]

JohnGalt...I'm sorry, but you're mistaken here. NOBODY in 80 posts said that they believe the top 64 women could compete equally with the top 64 men. What both you and Bola have said, is that NO woman can compete with any of the top men (IIRC, the number was listed at top 50 men). That's just plain silly...and there aren't 3 or 4...there are (at least) a couple of dozen women that have the skill to compete at a high level (let's call it 'runout status'...since you can't play any better than run out). I don't think you're a bad person. I just think you have a misguided opinion...however, you're entitled to express it. It's still a free country!

The majority of posters and readers here love pool, and would love to see it's 'status' raised to a point where the best players could make a nice living playing it (like in many other sports that require skill and intelligence). Having men and women playing together is a shortcut path to that end (at least most of us want to believe that). The men have floundered for decades, while the women have steadfastly remained visible (and united) on t.v. (at least until very recently). IMO, there are far too many 'chauvinists' out there, who still believe a woman's place is in the kitchen (or the bedroom). Fortunately, the chauvinists are now in the minority...as opposed to 40 yrs ago, when the were the majority of male public opinion.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Hi Scott,
Thanks for the rational discussion without name calling. However, I am concerned as to why you would put words in my mouth. I specifically said that I have met people that think the 64 women on the WPBA can compete with the top men. As in "met" in the real world, not other forum posts. Maybe I did not make that clear, I am very aware that there are not any posts stating that all 64 of the women on tour can compete with the top men. Personally, I know there are women on the WPBA tour that don't have to win the weekly tournament at my pool room. (I applaud them for competing so well and reaching the tour, but I still believe we are comparing two predominantly different competitive arenas) However, I have met other players at events, APA, VNEA, and in the poolroom who are under this misconception. Sometimes this becomes a topic of debate. I presume that many inexperienced people think this because the women are on TV more often, and the TV footage is heavily edited at times.

As Bola mentioned, if you watch a WPBA event live, there are way more innings per game - on average - than at a professional mens event. I do not know the cause, and I am not speculating as to why. It just is what it is. From my personal experience, this is a fact, not an opinion. This is also why I think that a handful of the women have dominated the tour - I believe they are that much ahead of the pack. I may have misunderstood, but I thought Bola's original post was to address this "debate" that sometimes comes up among pool fans.

Furthermore, I did not say unequivocally that NO woman could compete with the men. Yes, some of them can compete. And yes, some are definitely capable of winning matches. I said it was unlikely that a woman would win the US Open, or any other major mens event. I don't think that's a bash against women, I just think thats the way it is. Maybe in the future, yes. I maintain my opinion that there are not a couple dozen women that have a chance to make it deep in the US Open. Some, yes - a couple dozen - not yet.

As far your point about 'run out status' being the highest level you can compete at, that is an interesting topic. While I agree, the best you can do at the table at any moment is run-out, I do not think run-out status is the ultimate you can achieve. I understand your intent, but consider this - many, many players can run-out. I know 6's and 7's in my APA division that can run-out. However, these players are far from being able to compete with a player like Corey or Hatch.

I know many players that can run-out, but they have no chance of winning the Open. Perhaps if that is re-phrased to say they can run-out 8 out of 10 times coming to the table, that may be a better standard... And given that, how many of the few dozen women you refer to can do that? I've seen many WPBA matches, and I don't see nearly as many run-outs as I do at a mens event. And I agree, most of the men in the Open can't do it either, which is why only a percentage of the men in the Open have a chance of winning it also.

I wonder at what level beyond being able to just run-out is one considered a high enough caliber to win or go deep in the Open? I would think a player must be able to run-out at least 7/10 attempts on average... this could be a barometer for who actually has a chance, male or female. (Trust me, I realize that some men in the Open have no chance against some of the women either - my main focal point is at the upper levels)

 

[Grilled Cheese]

You know pocketspeed, I don't recall calling you or anyone else here any highly offensive or insulting terms. You keep slinging misogynist around in this thread directed toward me. Well, you sound like some hyper-sensitive politically correct metrosexual feminist liberal progressive apologist with a mangina. How's that for name calling?





I mean, you did call me a hater of women. That's excessive. I hope we can refrain from that.

 

[jay helfert]

Here are some facts for you Brian:
Men, on average, weigh more than women
Men, on average, are taller than women
Men, on average, die at a younger age than women
Men, on average, are physically stronger than women
Men, on average, literally speak less words in a day than women
Men, on average, are less empathetic than women

Are any of these opinions? No, they are facts. Do I think that any of these things make men better than women? Absolutely not. Before you try to attack me, notice that these statements are based on averages. Of course, some women are taller than some men. Of course, some women are stronger than some men. Of course, some men talk more than women. (Sorry, that stat is not a jab, its actually been studied)These are averages based on our genders as a whole.

Regardless of whether you like it or not, our genders are different, in case you have not noticed. I do not think either gender is better than the other, that is a matter of opinion. I believe the problem is that Politically Correct people insist that we act as if all people are equal, when we are not. We have different qualities, good and bad. We should all be treated equally, but we are not all equal in all regards. Same thing holds true if you look just within one gender or the other. All men are not equal. All women are not equal. Every person on this planet has different qualities, which is a great thing. Some people possess a genius intellect. Some people run really, really fast. Some people have horrible gas. Yes, everyone should be treated equally, but we should also learn to embrace our differences. Trust me, I do not hate women, or anyone else for that matter.

I do not know what causes the current talent gap in pool, at the highest levels. I am not speculating as to the causes. I am merely of the opinion that this is the current state of affairs.

I also do not think that a person without a college education will ever be president of the USA in the future. Does that mean I hate people that don't go to college?

And Spud Webb was 5'5" tall and won the slam dunk contest in the NBA! Now tell me what size and weight have to do with playing good pool. Have you taken a look at Alex Pagulayan, or Marcus Chamat, or Santos, or Parica, or Orcollo, or Rafael Martinez. This is a specious argument that you are alluding to, that a man has physical attributes that somehow can make him a better pool player. To this I can only reply BS!

 

[ShootingArts]

hmmm dere . . .

well, i know one thing. i certainly hope that a girl doesn't win the open.

the horror, the horror!

it would be cataclysmic ... the law of gravity would be repealed, lions would lie down with lambs, mideast peace would break out, oceans would recede and california would balance its budget!

please kneel down with me, brothers and sisters, we can't take a chance on the end to life as we know it!

sunny

Hmmm dere . . . There seems to be a bit more to this Sunny lady than her somewhat vapid first posts. I think we has been hoodwinkeded and bamboozled!

Hu

 

[JohnGalt]

And Spud Webb was 5'5" tall and won the slam dunk contest in the NBA! Now tell me what size and weight have to do with playing good pool. Have you taken a look at Alex Pagulayan, or Marcus Chamat, or Santos, or Parica, or Orcollo, or Rafael Martinez. This is a specious argument that you are alluding to, that a man has physical attributes that somehow can make him a better pool player. To this I can only reply BS!

The man asked me for facts. I supplied facts. I also specifically said these facts do not make men better at pool, or anything else. They are merely differences in male and female. I said they are averages, and also said there are always variations from averages.

If you read closer, I also said "I do not know what causes the current talent gap in pool, at the highest levels. I am not speculating as to the causes. I am merely of the opinion that this is the current state of affairs."

So if you want to call BS on me, at least please be aware of what you are referring to.

I know you have a horse in this race since it seems you are friends with Barry and are working at the Open in some manner, but do you really believe that the worlds best female poolplayers are at the same level as the worlds best male players? I know you can't answer that honestly here. And it is not a bash against women, its just my opinion that this is the way things are today.

Perhaps in time that will change, and I agree wholeheartedly that the women should have every opportunity to play in any event they wish.

 

[jay helfert]

A test to determine if it's just a matter of environment could happen if a female player came around, a young one in teens, that is showing great talent. Like Jasmin, but ..... she was only interested in playing with the men. No women's tour. No playing other women ever. Strictly play men and always playing good players. With the goal to be a great among them. The level she has to compete against is always the men. Would she develop into a professional with the skill set comparable to the men?

Good question. If that's true. If it happened. Then it would turn out that the creation of women's and ladies tours actually hurt women. Held them back. Stunted their progress by limiting their exposure to themselves. Not just in pool, but in many other sports and games. Remember, women's leagues, tours etcetera were made to keep men out. Not the other way around. Just like a B tournament. The A players didn't create B tournaments because they didn't want the weaker B players around. B tournaments are created to protect B players from the better A players so the B can win.[/QUOTE]


It's already happened - TWICE. First time was Jean Balukas back in the 80's. She started beating many TOP players (Mizerak, Lebron, Buddy, Keith) and they didn't like it one bit. Jean had the game to maybe win a major tournament but she never got the chance. Basically she got run out of pool.

Then came Jasmin Ouschan. This lady is a pool player, plain and simple. She wants to play the best players wherever they are, regardless of gender. Like Jean, if she is allowed to develop there is no telling how good she can become and if she will win a major title. She is ALREADY good enough to beat anyone in any tournament she enters.

I remember less than two years ago when Jasmin defied the WPBA and chose to play in the World Ten Ball against the top men players. She won a match or two and had to play Thomas Engert next. In case you didn't know, he has been one of the top players in Europe for many years. No one gave Jasmin much of a chance in this match. I watched it from start to finish. She gave Mr. Engert a pool lesson, beating him in every facet of the game, and winning 9-3. This was no fluke, she flat outplayed him.

Granted Jasmin did not win the tournament, but she serve notice that day that she might win one of these things if they just let her play. Thank you Barry Behrman for letting Jasmin play.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

Bola Ocho, you're dancing around whatever it is that you really want to say.

If you want to say that on the whole, men play better than women, fine. Say that.

If you want to say that men naturally play better than women, and always will, fine. Say that.



You make so many sideways remarks, on so many facets of the discussion, that I have seriously wondered today if you're trying to stir up some action, make some side action, get personal attention, or maybe just fight your own boredom til the weekend starts.

Yes, I can read. I just want to know: what exactly you would like to talk about here? You're just running in circles pushing everybody's buttons like a madman in a robot museum.

And then here, finally, it suddenly sounds like you've finally got something new or interesting to say:





But maybe you're just on another button- pushing mania.

It's so hard to tell.

The simple and short answer to one of your major questions is: No, I am not trolling. aka pushing buttons seeking reactions, flames and attention.


However, when I start a thread, I like to take the basic topics that are routinely discussed here, and spice them up. Make them more thought provoking, discuss controversies etc. Something with a little more spice than the boring threads where most everyone just repeats the same obvious common knowledge. Good ideas and good thoughts come from threads and subjects that have opposing views and a little bit of passion behind each side. It doesn't hurt to have a thread like this here and there. Breaks up the monotony of poll threads, announcements, and roll call threads on likes/dislikes.


:smile:

Does separating women from men make women lazier players? I don't know. It's interesting to think about. And it's definitely an argument for more gender blind Open tournaments.

I wouldn't use the word lazy. The theory is that because they play separately, there are two different skill level groups. I used the example, which was repeated by the very people opposed to me, that it may be like how certain countries are better than others in certain sports. Brazil for soccer, Canada in hockey....

You hinted early on that women playing in the Open would just make the open into a pressure cooker circus with slow play, poor play, and embarrassing acts of playing to the crowd. Is that your point or just another side track?

That's two different things I commented on. The pressure aspect was in reference to how some male players have extra pressure because they feel they shouldn't lose to a female at the professional level - despite the fact that the female pro is playing a professional level game and is strong enough to be a threat to win. The theatrics and playing to the crowd comments was just me making a statement about how I dislike that nonsense in WPBA pool. Not all the women do that. In fact, it's a minority of them that are drama queens as Sarah pointed out.


Finally, if women play more with the men - yes, they will improve. I just don't think they will improve to the point of equaling the men. And yes, that is perfectly consistent with the women closing the gap more and more. But it doesn't mean the gap will be completely closed.


Someone claimed that this was a contradiction I made. It isn't at all. The environmental factor does exist and I recognize it. It's seen in many areas. Even league pool. Where one league on one side of a city is vastly stronger than another on the other side. That's an example.


However, it is my opinion that there's more to it than just being exposed to playing against the men. It isn't only a matter of seasoning.



I don't mind being proved wrong at all. However, just because a bunch of hyper big mouths in this thread say so doesn't make it proof. I'm convinced by proof. Such as observation and data. The evidence does not support their position that the women play as well as the men. At least not yet. I'm open to the possibility that they can. I just don't think they will. What I want and hope for is different from what I think or predict.

 

[jay helfert]

The man asked me for facts. I supplied facts. I also specifically said these facts do not make men better at pool, or anything else. They are merely differences in male and female. I said they are averages, and also said there are always variations from averages.

If you read closer, I also said "I do not know what causes the current talent gap in pool, at the highest levels. I am not speculating as to the causes. I am merely of the opinion that this is the current state of affairs."

So if you want to call BS on me, at least please be aware of what you are referring to.

I know you have a horse in this race since it seems you are friends with Barry and are working at the Open in some manner, but do you really believe that the worlds best female poolplayers are at the same level as the worlds best male players? I know you can't answer that honestly here. And it is not a bash against women, its just my opinion that this is the way things are today.

Perhaps in time that will change, and I agree wholeheartedly that the women should have every opportunity to play in any event they wish.

If those are the "facts" and they have no bearing on pool ability, then why did you bring them up? Just to release some more hot air into the environment.

Unlike some here, I have no problem with honesty. NO, I don't think the best female players are as good as the best male players. You happy now? I never said they were, but of course you only read the posts of those you agree with.

The question here Mr. Galt is whether it is a good thing or not for women to be allowed to compete in the U.S. Open. Or did you lose sight of that while posting your "facts." The OP offered his reasons why he felt it was a bad thing for the Open to allow women to compete, much of it based on their lack of ability. I countered his argument with my own opinion of why I thought they should be able to play, and that I considered the best women players to be very competitive with the men.

So if you're going to argue, please know what you are arguing about.

 

[sunnyone]

shootingarts ...

vapid? i'll vapid you, pilgrim!

 

[jay helfert]

I don't mind being proved wrong at all. However, just because a bunch of hyper big mouths in this thread say so doesn't make it proof. I'm convinced by proof. Such as observation and data. The evidence does not support their position that the women play as well as the men. At least not yet. I'm open to the possibility that they can. I just don't think they will. What I want and hope for is different from what I think or predict.[/QUOTE]


Hyper Big Mouth Jay reporting for duty sir! Please tell us who and where someone said that the women play as well as the men. You keep saying someone said that, but for the life of me I can't find it anywhere on this thread. Except of course in your rebuttals. You are using a premise for your arguments that you alone made up.

By the way, my personal opinion is that one day a woman will come along who will beat ALL the men and be the World Champion. Of course, someone like you will call that a one time fluke until the day you die.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

Then came Jasmin Ouschan. This lady is a pool player, plain and simple. She wants to play the best players wherever they are, regardless of gender. Like Jean, if she is allowed to develop there is no telling how good she can become and if she will win a major title. She is ALREADY good enough to beat anyone in any tournament she enters.

So what? There are all kinds of A's and semi-pros out there that can do that. There are guys in pool rooms across the country that have a chance to beat any top male pro in a race to 11. A race, not most races. Not consistently. That's why guys match up and play something you may have heard of before, called "sets" ...


The question is, can Jasmin do it 8 times? I don't think so. If you're all excited over the simple fact that the women can play with the men in the Open and that they have a chance to beat anyone - well, that's nothing new. Women have won races against the men in the past.


I hope you're right Jay. I hope she is "allowed" to develop too. I hope that she wins the Open. I just disagree with this notion that there are barriers and chains keeping them down, such as when you use terms like "allow" in reference to developing as a player. That smacks of radical feminism.

What I want and hope for, and what I think and predict are two different things. That's what you and others have a hard time comprehending.

 

[Island Drive]

Having only read the last 10 threads I've always looked at this female/male aspect in a similar comparative to 5AAA HS sports as to 2AA sports. Here your demographics speak loudly. Your pools of competition that are greater in numbers most always produce better players and vise versa because the platform/numbers causes this. We are lucky to have a sport that can bring this aspect to it on a world wide platform, can't think of many others (I know there are some) that are so male dominated that can offer this opportunity. One thing tho thats always caught my attention, is in golf. Yes the women play really good and the men play better, some thinking its because of strength, but correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the mens short game is better than the gals, I have no idea why, and the demographics/numbers don't matter so why is it so, there is something real going on here speaking loudly to me.