Women in U.S. Open

[SUPERSTAR]

I'm kind of hoping that a woman might win the U.S. Open. Maybe not this year, but eventually, somewhere down the road.

Why?

So all the angry crybaby macho men who can't handle a woman winning, will go hang themselves from the nearest tree and we can be rid of them once and for all.

Talk about a bunch of whiny sissy crybabies.
Jeeeeez!

 

[Grilled Cheese]

Please tell us who and where someone said that the women play as well as the men. You keep saying someone said that, but for the life of me I can't find it anywhere on this thread. Except of course in your rebuttals. You are using a premise for your arguments that you alone made up.

That's because you fail to read and comprehend. That all started when I was commenting about my thoughts of women in the Open and women in general against men. I mentioned that when the vast majority of women get crushed, it would serve as proof for the dreamers at the pool room that think the women currently play as well as the men.

I don't recall anyone in this thread stating that belief. At the same time, I don't recall claiming or stating that someone in specific said that in this thread. That's what YOU and others have been trying to dump on me. Some of you have been itching to portray me as making some kind of claims about what people said in this thread when I never did such a thing.

JohnGalt also commented on such people who think the women play as well as the men. They are everywhere. They are entitled to their opinion, but I think they are wrong. That's all. Simple stuff. I'm sure you've met these folks. Seems to be a common belief among big fans of the WPBA.

You Jay aren't one of them. You stated that you don't believe the women play as well as the men. I don't know what you're all up in a lather for?

By the way, my personal opinion is that one day a woman will come along who will beat ALL the men and be the World Champion. Of course, someone like you will call that a one time fluke until the day you die.

Oh yes indeed , which is why I said that any win in the U.S. Open is EARNED. Again, you're not reading nor comprehending.

Comments like these are just downright sleazy and weak. I expected better from you.

Apparently, you have some deep seeded prejudices because you think that someone who disagrees or predicts differently is someone that would dismiss genuine success and skill.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

Having only read the last 10 threads I've always looked at this female/male aspect in a similar comparative to 5AAA HS sports as to 2AA sports. Here your demographics speak loudly. Your pools of competition that are greater in numbers most always produce better players and vise versa because the platform/numbers causes this. We are lucky to have a sport that can bring this aspect to it on a world wide platform, can't think of many others (I know there are some) that are so male dominated that can offer this opportunity. One thing tho thats always caught my attention, is in golf. Yes the women play really good and the men play better, some thinking its because of strength, but correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the mens short game is better than the gals, I have no idea why, and the demographics/numbers don't matter so why is it so, there is something real going on here speaking loudly to me.

Well said. We can go down the whole list, and cite various sports and games, especially ones not dependent on speed/strength, and the men still outperform the women despite women having full access to the game and to competition.

The reason it speaks loudly to you is because it is an observation you cannot deny. It's being honest with reality.


I think a lot of people have been indoctrinated by political correctness and radical feminism. It just goes against the grain of their programming and against their psychological comfort zone to explore such matters.


They think it is automatically a bad thing. It is not. It in no way diminishes or degrades women. There are many things men have no chance at being better than women. It's just the way it is. Also, I think they think that such conclusions mean that women must settle for a certain identity. Nonsense. Everyone is free to pursuit their dreams and ambitions.

 

[JohnGalt]

If those are the "facts" and they have no bearing on pool ability, then why did you bring them up? Just to release some more hot air into the environment.

Unlike some here, I have no problem with honesty. NO, I don't think the best female players are as good as the best male players. You happy now? I never said they were, but of course you only read the posts of those you agree with.

The question here Mr. Galt is whether it is a good thing or not for women to be allowed to compete in the U.S. Open. Or did you lose sight of that while posting your "facts." The OP offered his reasons why he felt it was a bad thing for the Open to allow women to compete, much of it based on their lack of ability. I countered his argument with my own opinion of why I thought they should be able to play, and that I considered the best women players to be very competitive with the men.

So if you're going to argue, please know what you are arguing about.

I brought these points up because we are having a discussion on the differences in men and women. These are factual statements indicating points of difference. As mentioned, I don't know what they have to do with pool, but they are differences. Many people seem to act as though it is negative to point out that we are different. Why is that so bad? I was not "releasing hot air", I was responding to a poster inquiring for facts about the differences in men and women. Of which there are many, thankfully

Just curious, why did you put "facts" in quotes as such? Are you implying that those statements are opinion or untruths?

And no sir, I did not lose grasp of the fact that we were discussing whether women should be allowed in the Open. Maybe you should reread my post, specifically the last line, which read as follows:

Perhaps in time that will change, and I agree wholeheartedly that the women should have every opportunity to play in any event they wish.

(I put it in bold type so you won't miss it this time)

I did not take issue with any of your discussions with the OP. You called my post BS, remember? Am I mistaken, or does that mean anything other than "bullshit"?

I am glad we are in agreement on the comparative talent of the world's best players.

 

[JB Cases]

Having only read the last 10 threads I've always looked at this female/male aspect in a similar comparative to 5AAA HS sports as to 2AA sports. Here your demographics speak loudly. Your pools of competition that are greater in numbers most always produce better players and vise versa because the platform/numbers causes this. We are lucky to have a sport that can bring this aspect to it on a world wide platform, can't think of many others (I know there are some) that are so male dominated that can offer this opportunity. One thing tho thats always caught my attention, is in golf. Yes the women play really good and the men play better, some thinking its because of strength, but correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the mens short game is better than the gals, I have no idea why, and the demographics/numbers don't matter so why is it so, there is something real going on here speaking loudly to me.

The simple way to state this is Mass makes Class.

This simple point was told to me by Ilona Bernhardt, the great German player nearly 20 years ago.

When there are roughly equal numbers of women playing seriously then there will be roughly equal numbers of women competing on a world class level.

It's really as simple as that. You don't need to look to genetics, physique, approach to life etc...

In any sport where physical size is not the dominant reason for disparity women can and will equal men if their participation numbers reach parity.

Mass makes Class.

 

[JohnGalt]

The simple way to state this is Mass makes Class.

This simple point was told to me by Ilona Bernhardt, the great German player nearly 20 years ago.

When there are roughly equal numbers of women playing seriously then there will be roughly equal numbers of women competing on a world class level.

It's really as simple as that. You don't need to look to genetics, physique, approach to life etc...

In any sport where physical size is not the dominant reason for disparity women can and will equal men if their participation numbers reach parity.

Mass makes Class.

This is an interesting concept, although I must admit I do not believe in it completely.

Allow me to propose a scenario:

Find 100 men and 100 women at random who have never seen or played pool, ever.

Provide instruction on the basics and allow them to practice for 3 months.

Have a tournament, 8 ball, races to 9.

Who do you think wins? Be honest with yourselves.


Now, I have no specific reason as to why I think a man would win, I guess its just a hunch. I have seen some of my non-pool playing friends gather around a pool table in a bar - guys and girls. And although none of them play pool regularly, for some reason the guys always pick it up quicker and play better. No idea why, but I have seen it over and over. I am confident others on here have too.

Can you explain this anomaly?

 

[MikeM]

So what are you saying? The women pros are filler?

Nope, just refuting your point that the inclusion of women "weakens" the field. But you knew that already right?

 

[jay helfert]

I think I'm done with this thread. I will admit I had a lot to do with Barry inviting the women this year, and not waiting until next year. So I have a vested interest in this conversation.

Saying that, and weighing the pros and cons, I'm glad that I leaned on Barry a little bit. I think, just because of controversies like this, that adding the women to the field at the Open will be a good thing. Like the OP here, I like to stir things up too, not just on the forum, but in real life situations like the upcoming U.S. Open. Let the games begin! :clapping:

 

[jay helfert]

This is an interesting concept, although I must admit I do not believe in it completely.

Allow me to propose a scenario:

Find 100 men and 100 women at random who have never seen or played pool, ever.

Provide instruction on the basics and allow them to practice for 3 months.

Have a tournament, 8 ball, races to 9.

Who do you think wins? Be honest with yourselves.


Now, I have no specific reason as to why I think a man would win, I guess its just a hunch. I have seen some of my non-pool playing friends gather around a pool table in a bar - guys and girls. And although none of them play pool regularly, for some reason the guys always pick it up quicker and play better. No idea why, but I have seen it over and over. I am confident others on here have too.

Can you explain this anomaly?

Everything is like everything else, except not always. :groucho:

 

[JohnGalt]

I think I'm done with this thread. I will admit I had a lot to do with Barry inviting the women this year, and not waiting until next year. So I have a vested interest in this conversation.

Saying that, and weighing the pros and cons, I'm glad that I leaned on Barry a little bit. I think, just because of controversies like this, that adding the women to the field at the Open will be a good thing. Like the OP here, I like to stir things up too, not just on the forum, but in real life situations like the upcoming U.S. Open. Let the games begin! :clapping:

Good luck with the Open! Allowing the women the chance to compete was definitely a good idea.

 

[sunnyone]

don't give up jay!

hey!

i think i may have thought of a sport where women can triumph over men?

horse racing -- both the rider and the ridee!

sunny

 

[LAMas]

hey!

i think i may have thought of a sport where women can triumph over men?

horse racing -- both the rider and the ridee!

sunny

How about Figure Skating?
Where women are women and so are the men?:smile:

 

[CreeDo]

You're making the filler argument that others have been. Hey, can't fill the field? Bring in the bench!

I'm making it because it's a valid point. Someone on the bench might actually be underrated and can really play. And if not, it still beats an empty field. I don't see you making any good argument against it. If you want to look down on the "filler" players, you can... but from a practical point of view... it's better for those players, it's better for their opponents who don't get a free ride, it's better for the TD who who collects those extra entry fees, and it's better for the spectators who want more matches (and, yes, the novelty of it).

Something I disagree with:

Overall playing quality of the field will drop

Let's pretend the "can't fill the field" problem never existed and we're fielding 256 from now on. So you're saying the entry of some women (who we'll rate as 5's, 6's, 7's on a scale to 10) are going to take slots that would have been filled by better [male] players? Because in the past I don't think any of those "better [male] players" were denied access. Not due to a lack of slots, that's for sure. We know the 8's, 9's, and 10's were all there.

I DO know for sure several 5's, 6's, and 7's can now play who couldn't before. Who are they hypothetically replacing? Are there male 6/7/8s who are now going to miss the boat or voluntarily drop out? My thinking is... no. If they see the women as you see them (as byes) they will feel like they have a shot they never had before, and they will make a point of entering.

The guys who might drop out (who otherwise would have played) won't be those strong males... it'll be male players who know they're shortstops and won't want to donate an entry fee to this now STRONGER field that has more PROS than ever before.

 

[pooladdict]

If Jasmin plays, I've got $100.00 says she makes the top 16.

Any takers? First come, first served.

You are on :thumbup:

 

[JB Cases]

This is an interesting concept, although I must admit I do not believe in it completely.

Allow me to propose a scenario:

Find 100 men and 100 women at random who have never seen or played pool, ever.

Provide instruction on the basics and allow them to practice for 3 months.

Have a tournament, 8 ball, races to 9.

Who do you think wins? Be honest with yourselves.


Now, I have no specific reason as to why I think a man would win, I guess its just a hunch. I have seen some of my non-pool playing friends gather around a pool table in a bar - guys and girls. And although none of them play pool regularly, for some reason the guys always pick it up quicker and play better. No idea why, but I have seen it over and over. I am confident others on here have too.

Can you explain this anomaly?

I think that the men would have an edge because they are naturally more competitive. The old hunter-gather thing.

Now, if you took 200 men and women who were competitive athletes but not players at all and gave them the same instruction and same opportunities without social or sexual bias then I firmly believe that the rate of success would be roughly equal. I say that a tournament at the end of three months with all 200 players participating would have a roughly equal mix of men and women finishing in the top 30 places.

Of course to really know you have to extend it out to more time in training and more tournaments to weed out the anomalies and allow the luck factor to even out.

 

[JB Cases]

I have seen some of my non-pool playing friends gather around a pool table in a bar - guys and girls. And although none of them play pool regularly, for some reason the guys always pick it up quicker and play better. No idea why, but I have seen it over and over. I am confident others on here have too.

Can you explain this anomaly?

Sure, socialization, boys play with things you have to aim and kill with and girls play wit things you have to nurture.

A man understands the competitive drive to do it right and the woman doesn't really care as long as everyone is having fun.

I have seen the same thing at league parties - the men all want to WIN every game even against their friends and the women just want to have a good time EVEN if they are killer competitors in regular league play.

But make it an alternate universe where men and women are raised as equals then you will see equal attitudes and skills in competitive endeavors.

And in sports where size doesn't matter you will see equal aptitude in that alternate universe.

 

[MasterClass]

If more tournaments gets open to women. And they get an idea of how things are and the level that men are playing.

In the near future, i think it will be the men who will be sweating..........

 

[LAlouie]

Stop this nonsense of making excuses for women They flat out play at an inferior level to the men. Many many top women, in fact, train with men.[/QUO

not making excuses. just stating facts. what do you feel is the reason for their inferior play?

brian

Logically speaking, there's absolutely no reason I can think of that women shouldn't be playing men's speed. It's not a game of strength, it is a game of finesse. It's a thinking game too, and there's no mano-a-mano. Yet I'm continually flumoxed at how top women make some of the dumbest mental errors. It's like there's some disconnect. It's like listening to Dawn Hopkins blow one call after another.

While top women can give men all they can handle on a given day(that's really the nature,and weakness, of 9ball), I also see that top women win as much because their lesser players cannot capitalize on any mistakes and simply blow it, While if they ever played that way against the men, they'd be toast. Maybe someone should come up with an in depth stat sheet on the kinds of numbers women put up. All I know is, it is what it is.

Allowing the women to play in the open will be an interesting experiment, but ultimately damaging. Over a period of a few years, when you watch the very top women busting(I've seen TOP women get blasted by barely open level men), I don't see how that will possibly help the women's game as it will then be resolutely viewed as inferior to men, and from that point there will be no place for women to go but back to playing each other except now under the shroud of the true quality( or lack thereof) of their game.

For the game of pool, this will be novel in the world of competitive sport, much like women in auto racing, the difference being the general public doesn't care about pool, and if there's a curiosity factor, it will soon wane. And the Black Widow won't help either, but you can bet her games will be shown and milked for all they're worth.

This is a desperation move...the wpba has a dying schedule. A few years ago when the wpba was doing okay and espn liked showing women bending over a pool table, the women didn't want anything to do with the floundering, self destructive men's game. Because this is a desperation move, there is no fundamentally sound reason for inclusion of women in the open.

 

[krelldog]

I posted this in another thread regarding the girls in the US Open....and its not apples to apples but......

The Professional Bowlers Association for the first time opened up the invitations for their Tournament of Champions to a handful of Womens champions this year. Kelly Kulick one of the top women players, not only made the top 5...but in the stepladder finals won in the semi's and beat Chris Barnes in the title match on a demanding condition. This tournament was also the long format....so the "fluke theory" doesn't apply.

If nothing else let it play out. The women deserve that opportunity...The tournament is better with them in it. Nobody's bashing or discounting the men's abilities....just recognizing that the girls are deserving of the chance to compete. I think it makes the tournament better in many ways.

 

[krelldog]

oh and by the way....whats more physical...rolling a 15-16 pound bowling ball 60 feet down a bowling lane 16-20 miles per hour...or hitting whitey with a 19-20 ounce cue 8-9 feet......all of you doubters....I would of bet my life a women couldn't win a national bowling tournament let alone an invitational tournament of champions on a demanding long format....and then it happened...