Women's Grand Masters aka Pro Event at the BCA

cuechick

cuechick

Flys In the Kitchen
Silver Member
One of the biggest problems I have with the BCA since the new regime took over, is how they have become very lax about allowing pros back into the amateur events.

Back in the day, if you had ever had any pro status on the woman's tour you could not play. And if you had qualified to play in any pro events you had to play in the Masters. They now allow many current pro players to play in the Grand Masters, the Masters and at least one former TP played in the Open just 2 years ago. But what really takes the cake is allowing Kelly Fisher to play in the Grand Masters.

My friend Captained a Masters team, with two current touring pros playing on it. She was told by the BCA that no pro ranked in the top 32 last year could play at all. Then just hours before the Women's Grand Masters event started they allowed Kelly to enter. I like Kelly a lot, but she finished last year in the top 5! That she was allowed to play in this event is just crazy to me and it is no surprise that she won. Not to mention how unfair this was to all the women who spent the time & money to play in it.

IMO the entire Grandmaster Women's event is a joke and tainted by this, as is the BCA.
 
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Totally agree on this one...

I gotta agree on this one, pros ranked in the top 32 should be prohibited from joining this event. The BCA is moving players up to Grand Master based on how a player finishes in the Masters division, then allows top ranked pros to play. If I was bumped, like many semi-pro women players this year, or even earned that level, I would not even want to come play. That opens a whole other can of worms for me...(moving players up based on known recognition - that would need a whole other thread for my rants)

To add to the confusion, I had heard that Alison wanted to play but was not allowed because she was participating in the Predator event. However, a quick look at the rosters for both events shows Amalia Matas from Spain, who took third in Masters Women's, was playing in the Predator event as well. So, you can't play Grand Masters and play the pro event, but Masters is okay????
 
In my opinion, the BCA made a big mistake in creating the Grand Master category.

The need is for a category between Open & Master, not beyond that. For the 10-15 players that would be considered Grand Master, this category is simply not working. Each year, the top finalists in the Open division (both singles & teams) are suppose to move up to the Master level but the competition in the Master division never seems to increase in shear #s. That should tell the BCA that something is not working to increase participation.

Also, I am also confused on how Kelly Fischer, #5 in the world women, was allowed to play in the BCA event.
 
watchez said:
In my opinion, the BCA made a big mistake in creating the Grand Master category.

The need is for a category between Open & Master, not beyond that. For the 10-15 players that would be considered Grand Master, this category is simply not working. Each year, the top finalists in the Open division (both singles & teams) are suppose to move up to the Master level but the competition in the Master division never seems to increase in shear #s. That should tell the BCA that something is not working to increase participation.

Also, I am also confused on how Kelly Fischer, #5 in the world women, was allowed to play in the BCA event.
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Me and some of my friends were discussing this as well. I don't have a problem with having three divisions, but the criteria causes it's own problems. Divisions are increased by 2 things, a strong showing in the previous division or based on known ability. Divisions can then be moved down by not finishing in the money 2 years in a row. Taking the Women's Divisions in to account, the top 3 women in the Masters are moved up to Grand Master and anywhere from the top 16 to 24 will be moved from Open to Masters. In the Grand Masters, I think there were like 16 players and over half would not make it into the money. If this is there second year in a row, they can ask to move down. Potentially, there could be more players moving down in one year then moving up. The same rule is going to apply to Masters, which had about 60 players this year.

After some discussion, I think that the BCA should eliminate moving players up based on known ability. Let every player earn there standing. Once there, however, they are there forever, unless of course, they move up further. It would improve both Masters fields.

The known ability thing is a sore subject for me as there is no standard across the board. I was so mad the year I got bumped. I was moved to a Grand Master with the reasoning that I played in some pro events and I had the same league average as Leslie Ann Rogers (who is a Grand Master that plays in the same league). I protested since I had never finished higher than 33rd in the Open and was moved to Masters. The same year I was bumped, Justin Bergman was in the Men's Open and Caroline Pao was in the Women's Open. Caroline was also beginning to play pro events at that time, which was their initial criteria for my move. There was no shock when Justin took third and Caroline took 2nd in singles & first in scotch. This year, I saw no difference in the discrepancy. All the semi-pro women's players were bumped to Grand Masters, despite 8-ball on a 7ft table being quite different from 9-ball on a 9ft. Susan Williams was allowed to play Open Scotch even though she opted to play Women's Masters singles...she had played on the pro tour the same time as myself. No shock that she proceeded to win open scotch and also manage a 5/6 finish in singles. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the players, as I would play in the Open myself given the opportunity. I am just citing examples of the discrepancy when someone is pointing saying, move him up, her up, etc. Just let everyone earn it and take the guess work out of gauging player abilities. Once that is done, don't allow players to move back down.

Sorry for the rant...it's a sore subject for me. :o
 
Yes, there is something mildly strange about a cue booth covered with Kelly Fisher's image right on the tournament floor and Kelly Fisher playing in the Grand Masters event with only a handful of her peers. It's not advertised as a pro event. I mean, I don't recall seeing Karen Corr in Vegas.

IMO, if these women show up last minute, simply direct them to the Men's event. Problem solved.
 
No system is perfect & I enjoy watching the better players play. The top 32 is a good criteria as long the BCA sticks to it.
 
watchez said:
No system is perfect & I enjoy watching the better players play. The top 32 is a good criteria as long the BCA sticks to it.
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No, I can't agree with this. These women aren't making any money. The top 5 are but not the rest. I think it's really difficult to ban someone for professional status when they're not making any money.
 
Hey

Firecracker said:
I gotta agree on this one, pros ranked in the top 32 should be prohibited from joining this event. The BCA is moving players up to Grand Master based on how a player finishes in the Masters division, then allows top ranked pros to play. If I was bumped, like many semi-pro women players this year, or even earned that level, I would not even want to come play. That opens a whole other can of worms for me...(moving players up based on known recognition - that would need a whole other thread for my rants)

To add to the confusion, I had heard that Alison wanted to play but was not allowed because she was participating in the Predator event. However, a quick look at the rosters for both events shows Amalia Matas from Spain, who took third in Masters Women's, was playing in the Predator event as well. So, you can't play Grand Masters and play the pro event, but Masters is okay????
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Not trying to hijack this, but it was nice to meet you in the AZ room. I think as far as conflicting events, Allison maybe had a better chance of the schedules conflicting. I'm not sure how the lady from Spain is playing in the master division and the Predator stop at the same time. Don't seem right to me.
 
cuechick said:
One of the biggest problems I have with the BCA since the new regime took over, is how they have become very lax about allowing pros back into the amateur events.

Back in the day, if you had ever had any pro status on the woman's tour you could not play. And if you had qualified to play in any pro events you had to play in the Masters. They now allow many current pro players to play in the Grand Masters, the Masters and at least one former TP played in the Open just 2 years ago. But what really takes the cake is allowing Kelly Fisher to play in the Grand Masters.

My friend Captained a Masters team, with two current touring pros playing on it. She was told by the BCA that no pro ranked in the top 32 last year could play at all. Then just hours before the Women's Grand Masters event started they allowed Kelly to enter. I like Kelly a lot, but she finished last year in the top 5! That she was allowed to play in this event is just crazy to me and it is no surprise that she won. Not to mention how unfair this was to all the women who spent the time & money to play in it.

IMO the entire Grandmaster Women's event is a joke and tainted by this, as is the BCA.
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Hi All,

I just wanted to share with you some information I received from Bill Stock, Rules & Referee Program Administrato of the BCA. This is a direct quote from an e-mail that he sent to me on Jan 15th.

"All WPBA members are ranked as Grand Masters. If they were to climb into the top 32 they would then become ineligible to play in team events. As long as they are ranked lower than 32 they can play. They would still be able to play in the Grand Master singles regardless of their ranking."

So, while you may feel it is unfair that the WPBA players were allowed into the Grand Master singles...this e-mail does prove that it was not a decision made at the last minute. Any WPBA player was allowed to enter the Grand Master singles...regardless of ranking (in that same e-mail chain, Bill later jokes that if Allison purchased a BCA player membership...of course she would be allowed into the Grand Masters). The only prohibition for the Top 32 was in the team events.

Cuechick - if your friend's team is from NY...then I believe I know who the captain is. And it was I who provided her the information back in January that her 2 touring pros could play in the team event since they weren't ranked Top 32 at the time. I forwarded those e-mails from Bill Stock to her...so she must have misunderstood and thought the Top 32 restriction went for all BCA events...not just team play.

Best Regards,

Melissa
 
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Melissa Herndon said:
Hi All,

I just wanted to share with you some information I received from Bill Stock, Rules & Referee Program Administrato of the BCA. This is a direct quote from an e-mail that he sent to me on Jan 15th.

"All WPBA members are ranked as Grand Masters. If they were to climb into the top 32 they would then become ineligible to play in team events. As long as they are ranked lower than 32 they can play. They would still be able to play in the Grand Master singles regardless of their ranking."

So, while you may feel it is unfair that the WPBA players were allowed into the Grand Master singles...this e-mail does prove that it was not a decision made at the last minute. Any WPBA player was allowed to enter the Grand Master singles...regardless of ranking (in that same e-mail chain, Bill later jokes that if Allison purchased a BCA player membership...of course she would be allowed into the Grand Masters). The only prohibition for the Top 32 was in the team events.

Cuechick - if your friend's team is from NY...then I believe I know who the captain is. And it was I who provided her the information back in January that her 2 touring pros could play in the team event since they weren't ranked Top 32 at the time. I forwarded those e-mails from Bill Stock to her...so she must have misunderstood and thought the Top 32 restriction went for all BCA events...not just team play.

Best Regards,

Melissa
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My question is this..........Why would'nt they play?It would seem to me it would be easier money to win.
(and by any means,I am NOT saying the ladies grand master would be easy)
 
[QUOTE=Jude Rosenstock I mean, I don't recall seeing Karen Corr in Vegas.






She was there but did not play in any events.
 
Grand Masters Division

I agree that the BCA made a huge mistake with adding the Grand Masters
division. I think you should put us all in the masters and have the GMs spot us a game on the wire. I think that would be fair. I am not a GM, but if I was, I wouldnt be too excited about going all the way to Vegas to find out only 18 players are in the division.
And I didnt know 2 touring pros were on the NY team.LOL My team put them on the B side on the top 4 board. I sure glad I didnt know that.LOL
I feel alittle bit better about our 2nd place now. (we were in the hot seat)
We were in good company in the team event. Very strong players for sure.
It was a great experience. Congrats to the Ill. team!!! They deserved the win. They played great!!!! I definately learned alot from that loss.
 
Women at the BCAPL and Predator 10 ball

Remember everyone, This is the BCA Pool League. The BCA is still the Billiard Congress of America and has nothing to do with amateur pool.

#1) The policy has always been - if you play in the Pro event, you cannot play in ANY of our events. This is only because of scheduling conflicts. We refunded several players that "misunderstood" that policy. It appears we may have missed a couple of players.

However, we take entries for several months BEFORE the Predator 10 ball roster is complete. Our draw and charts are actually done before the Predator roster is finalized (because of last minute changes).

Next year we will try to take better steps in making sure the Predator contestants understand this. Amalia Matas was not knowingly allowed. By the way, she also played in the 9 Ball Challenge (which was open to ANYBODY).

I will respond to the Grandmaster issue in another post. Also, if there are any questions, please contact our office. Bill Stock usually takes care of the ranking issues. He is out of the office on a family health emergency.

Melissa Herndon's post has the facts. Thanks Melissa.

By the way, I am looking for the contact info on the TOP 500 players in the US. This INCLUDES women!!!!

Mark Griffin
BCA Pool League
markg@playbca.com
 
Mark Griffin said:
Remember everyone, This is the BCA Pool League. The BCA is still the Billiard Congress of America and has nothing to do with amateur pool.

#1) The policy has always been - if you play in the Pro event, you cannot play in ANY of our events. This is only because of scheduling conflicts. We refunded several players that "misunderstood" that policy. It appears we may have missed a couple of players.

However, we take entries for several months BEFORE the Predator 10 ball roster is complete. Our draw and charts are actually done before the Predator roster is finalized (because of last minute changes).

Next year we will try to take better steps in making sure the Predator contestants understand this. Amalia Matas was not knowingly allowed. By the way, she also played in the 9 Ball Challenge (which was open to ANYBODY).

I will respond to the Grandmaster issue in another post. Also, if there are any questions, please contact our office. Bill Stock usually takes care of the ranking issues. He is out of the office on a family health emergency.

Melissa Herndon's post has the facts. Thanks Melissa.

By the way, I am looking for the contact info on the TOP 500 players in the US. This INCLUDES women!!!!

Mark Griffin
BCA Pool League
markg@playbca.com
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Mark,

Please e-mail me at the WPBA office (melissa@wpba.com) regarding the contact information for any WPBA players that you are looking to include.

And just to add a little levity...which ranking system should people use to determine the top 500? ;)
 
Since I am also one that is guilty of getting the BCA Pool League & the BCA confused - which entity is going to be responsible for ranking Pro Players. It seems to me that if it is the BCA, as I think I am correct, than the BCA does have something to do with the BCA Pool League if the top 32 are outlawed from playing in certain events.

As I said earlier, nothing is perfect. A few years ago, IPT top players Darren Appleton, Karl Boyes, Mick Hill all played in Master or Grand Master singles & the team event. This was before the creation of the IPT so the 'speed' of these English players was not known at the time. I commend Mark from commenting to me that this would be looked at closer in the future and it appears that the BCA Pool league is able to adjust. BTW, before the Master's Men team event started, I looked online & unless I was viewing the teams incorrectly - there was a team from England listed but they did not show up in Vegas. Now online, this team is not on the rosters. Did they forfeit or back out?

Mark, I anxiously await your thoughts on the Grand Master division. I don't think it is 'working' and again, feel that a division between Open and Master is more suited. I don't have the #s but from appearance, it does not seem that Master or Grand Master divisions are growing each year as they should.
 
Granmaster Women (and Men)

This is to try and address some of the comments about Kelly Fisher Playing in the Grandmaster event at the BCAPL tournament.

The Grandmaster is the top level. The BCAPL does not feel that a player should be barred because they are "too good" - if so why even try to play your best?

Our policy is that ANYBODY can play in the Grandmaster event. That means touring pros. I realize the women's depth may not be that deep - but in the men's side, I don't think anybody has to like playing Kirkwood or Bergman a race on a 7' table. And we try to have the same qualifying rules for men & women.

If anyone plays in the Pro event, they CANNOT play in any of our events if there will be a schuduling conflict for any of the players in both events. Kelly Fisher did not play in the Pro event. We did refund a few that did not understand our policy. It seems one women player got by us. We will try to resolve that next year. The problem is that the Predator roster changes up to the last minute - even after our draw is done and the charts are posted.

We make mistakes. But we have to go by Known Ability. We acknowledge a player can be returned to a lower level - but it does not happen all that often. We can only judge players by their "single" performance. Many players just try to fly under the radar. We have to protect the players.

We also feel that no-one can 'get too good' to play. There needs to be a place for every speed of player.

I would encourage comments and questions. Often there is a misunderstanding and we would like the opportunity to resolve issues BEFORE they get way out of hand.

We still think the creation of the Grandmasters is a good idea. Unfortunately, many players don't return after being bumped up because the competition gets a little bit tougher.

I hope this helps explain the situation. By the way bill@playbca.com would be the contact on these issues.

I also am looking for the contact info for the TOP 500 or so players in the US. That Includes women!!!

Mark Griffin
BCAPL
markg@playbca.com
 
Top 500

Hi Melissa,

Good Question! I am just looking for a mehtod of contacting the better players. I just grabbed the "TOP 500" as tool to let people know.

I don't think there is any listing (of any validity) that goes that deep.

Just put it this way: Anyone (Male or Female) that is currently - or thinks they have what it takes - to be a top player.

PLEASE copntact me. This is in connection with my PLAN to help bring back Professional events.

PLEASE include a phone number and e-mail. Even a little info about yourself would be nice.

Mark Griffin
markg@playbca.com
 
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