World Ten Ball Champìonship 2009

A new entity needs to be created. With the proper people at the helm, (people without money needs) maybe players could at least be guaranteed to receive the payouts advertised.

It is truly a travesty that the players continue to get the short end of the stick.

I've got to hand it to you Roy. You are a consistent, reasonable voice in these affairs. I would hope that if an entity such as this is ever created that you might have some input or participation in it.

JoeyA

I definitely think it's time that there is some sort of pool escrow service. The rule should be that if you want to hold a tournament over xxx-amount then you have to have xxx-amount in secure escrow at least 6 months before the start date of the tournament. With the money posted all the players can be sure that they will get paid and so attendance will go up. The players should register with teh escrow service and receive their payments from that service not from the promoters.

Doing this also takes the monkey off the back of the promoters. With the prize money secured they can focus on promoting the event and getting the sponsors and the gate up.

I think that all promoters should have to follow this plan regardless of whether they have sanctioning or not.

In other words I should be able to call the bank and register as a payee and receive some confirmation that the money is in escrow. This should be the same for all events and completely outside the purview of the WPA or any other organization. It should become the new standard for high profile events.

Surely there is some bank somewhere that runs this sort of service. If not then it's a new product that they can offer.

The current situation is just ridiculous. We are arguing about whether Barry Behrman should "allow" women and he can't even pay the people who already play in his event.

The WPA should be ashamed of it's backing of Raya Sports. To allow people to be unpaid the SECOND year after the debacle in the first year?

It's not any wonder why no one takes pool seriously. No wonder why pool will never grow beyond the hustler stigma. Why should it when the hustlers turned sportsmen allow themselves to be hustled over and over and over?
 
tap, tap, tap John! It amazes me that these guys can get away with this...repeatedly it seems. I like the idea of escrowed prize funds being paid out by a third party, not the promoter.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I definitely think it's time that there is some sort of pool escrow service. The rule should be that if you want to hold a tournament over xxx-amount then you have to have xxx-amount in secure escrow at least 6 months before the start date of the tournament. With the money posted all the players can be sure that they will get paid and so attendance will go up. The players should register with teh escrow service and receive their payments from that service not from the promoters.

Doing this also takes the monkey off the back of the promoters. With the prize money secured they can focus on promoting the event and getting the sponsors and the gate up.

I think that all promoters should have to follow this plan regardless of whether they have sanctioning or not.

In other words I should be able to call the bank and register as a payee and receive some confirmation that the money is in escrow. This should be the same for all events and completely outside the purview of the WPA or any other organization. It should become the new standard for high profile events.

Surely there is some bank somewhere that runs this sort of service. If not then it's a new product that they can offer.

The current situation is just ridiculous. We are arguing about whether Barry Behrman should "allow" women and he can't even pay the people who already play in his event.

The WPA should be ashamed of it's backing of Raya Sports. To allow people to be unpaid the SECOND year after the debacle in the first year?

It's not any wonder why no one takes pool seriously. No wonder why pool will never grow beyond the hustler stigma. Why should it when the hustlers turned sportsmen allow themselves to be hustled over and over and over?
 
Well it seems as if pool isn't special to have promoters who use creative accounting when it comes to paying the players.

A quick trip into Google using the search for "tournament prize money escrow service" yielded a lot of interesting information about various sports and activities which place the prize fund in escrow BEFORE the event takes place.

Apparently from what I can see most of this is handled through an attorney.

Also it was interesting to see that chess players bark more than pool players. I read of one match for 2,000,000 - TWO MILLION - where the agreement was that the money should be posted in escrow. And one of the players was demanding $300,000 show up money anyway.

The point is that escrow is alive and well in other sports and there is not reason why it shouldn't become standard in pool.
 
Well it seems as if pool isn't special to have promoters who use creative accounting when it comes to paying the players.

A quick trip into Google using the search for "tournament prize money escrow service" yielded a lot of interesting information about various sports and activities which place the prize fund in escrow BEFORE the event takes place.

Apparently from what I can see most of this is handled through an attorney.

Also it was interesting to see that chess players bark more than pool players. I read of one match for 2,000,000 - TWO MILLION - where the agreement was that the money should be posted in escrow. And one of the players was demanding $300,000 show up money anyway.

The point is that escrow is alive and well in other sports and there is not reason why it shouldn't become standard in pool.

How much does the attorney and escrow service charge the promoter for a $100,000 hold? The players would foot the bill for it anyway. It would seem a shame to have Mark G, Greg S, Jay H, and others that have paid every cent promised for years to have to put money in escrow now. I know something needs to be done, but I don't escrow happening in pool anytime soon. Johnnyt
 
I don't think it would be a shame for Mark and Greg to escrow the money. I would hope that they would lead by example.

I have no idea what the escrow service costs. I doubt it's major but the upside is so good that it's worth it to me.

I think that players should write an open letter to all promoters and show their intention to support only tournaments with guaranteed prize funds.

I think tournament promoters should give themselves an out. Up to two months prior to the event if the tournament isn't 75% filled then they can cancel it.

However I firmly believe that if this comes to pass then nearly every big tournament will not only have 100% attendance BUT the promoter can further make money by holding qualifiers for a certain number of spots held out for that purpose.

The issue for me is that there should be a system that is the same for all promoters. That way we don't don't need to talk about who is "good" and who is not.

As the Germans say, "trust is good but control is better". How much better off would we be without these threads?

Don't you think that the players who are out there and are owed money are thinking about this every day?

I mean we have players on here begging us for sponsorship, trying to make enough to get to these events then they play good and cash and are stiffed. I mean, we as fans get our pleasure out of it because we get to sweat the event, get to discuss the matches, get to bet on the matches, and meanwhile the actual players are getting screwed over.

To me it's all about the players. If the players keep flying all over the world to play in tournaments where the money is not in escrow then they deserve what they get. I mean why are we even cluttering up the board talking about this?

I personally don't care anymore if anyone gets paid because they keep going back for more. Thank you Rodney and Mika and Efren for entertaining me despite knowing whether you are going to get paid for your performance. Thank you Raya and Barry and all the promoters who get all these great players to show up and play even though they know they are likely to get stiffed.

Thank you to Mark and Greg and Jay for providing top notch tournaments where you do pay the players immediately! It's too bad that you don't get bigger accolades for doing it the way it should be done.

As a fan I don't really care anymore. Escrow services are there, they are used in other sports and activities. Whether they get used or not in pool doesn't mean a damn thing to me unless someone is asking me to spend $3000 to fly around the world and play in their tournament.

From now on I will just look at such threads with sadness and pity.
 
Gee - look what comes up as the first result under "escrow for tournaments" on Google

http://www.wpa-pool.com/download/wpa_sanction.pdf

Read it - and ask yourselves why this doesn't apply to Barry Behrman and Yen Makabenta?

"Escrow:

For all new organisers, the prize fund must be secured in escrow no less than forty-
five days prior to the commencement date of the main event. This procedure will
apply to all new organisers/promoters. It will also apply to any organiser/promoter
who hasn’t met his prize money payouts within a reasonable time period after the
tournament has ended.


If the funds have not been secured in escrow within the time period, the WPA is
obligated to advise the players of the situation."
 
Gee - look what comes up as the first result under "escrow for tournaments" on Google

http://www.wpa-pool.com/download/wpa_sanction.pdf

Read it - and ask yourselves why this doesn't apply to Barry Behrman and Yen Makabenta?

"Escrow:

For all new organisers, the prize fund must be secured in escrow no less than forty-
five days prior to the commencement date of the main event. This procedure will
apply to all new organisers/promoters. It will also apply to any organiser/promoter
who hasn’t met his prize money payouts within a reasonable time period after the
tournament has ended.


If the funds have not been secured in escrow within the time period, the WPA is
obligated to advise the players of the situation."

Presumably because the organisers are established as opposed to "new" and because in the opinion of WPA they are not yet guilty of not paying within a "reasonable time". Beggars belief that they could reach this opinion, even without pool's recent history in this respect.........but what other conclusion are we left with?
 
World 10-ball Women moved...

I've tried to find info about Philippines Open and the World 8-ball in Fujareh, but even boardmembers of WPA or world champions know nothing about these events, and are basically waiting for more info.

The World 8-ball starts supposedly in 3,5 week or so...

Roy......I can tell you that the traffic from Dubai and Abu Dhabi airports to to Fujairah has got a bit better. Hope that helps :p

PS.....As far as general everyday life goes "Filipino time" resembles the pinnacle of German efficiency when measured against "Middle East time", so no news about that Fujairah event is not yet necesarily bad news. On the other hand when it comes to prize money payment arrangements, UAE based events have a very good record as does Qatar.
 
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8 Ball in Fujairah

The 8 Ball Championship in Fujairah will now go ahead as planned. It was in doubt when the main sponsor of the event (a well known UAE retail concern) ceased trading but the Government of Fujairah have stepped in to support the tournament.

The details are on a seperate thread.

Sorry Roy but the details have only just been confirmed.
 
Well done Doug, good operation.........it's pished with rain several times in last couple of weeks but the sun will be turned back on just for you :)
 
I definitely think it's time that there is some sort of pool escrow service. The rule should be that if you want to hold a tournament over xxx-amount then you have to have xxx-amount in secure escrow at least 6 months before the start date of the tournament. With the money posted all the players can be sure that they will get paid and so attendance will go up. The players should register with teh escrow service and receive their payments from that service not from the promoters.

Doing this also takes the monkey off the back of the promoters. With the prize money secured they can focus on promoting the event and getting the sponsors and the gate up.

I think that all promoters should have to follow this plan regardless of whether they have sanctioning or not.

In other words I should be able to call the bank and register as a payee and receive some confirmation that the money is in escrow. This should be the same for all events and completely outside the purview of the WPA or any other organization. It should become the new standard for high profile events.

Surely there is some bank somewhere that runs this sort of service. If not then it's a new product that they can offer.

The current situation is just ridiculous. We are arguing about whether Barry Behrman should "allow" women and he can't even pay the people who already play in his event.

The WPA should be ashamed of it's backing of Raya Sports. To allow people to be unpaid the SECOND year after the debacle in the first year?

It's not any wonder why no one takes pool seriously. No wonder why pool will never grow beyond the hustler stigma. Why should it when the hustlers turned sportsmen allow themselves to be hustled over and over and over?

Many good points in the latter part of your posting John.
But I thought that you would have a better grasp of economics. It would be virtually impossible to get a sponsor to pay over their sponsorship contribution SIX MONTHS AHEAD. Even less so to a third party. If Matchroom,
Jay Helfert, Mark Griffin, Greg Sullivan, Qatar, Dragon or myself were required to do that then there would be no events.
But if I did not have the total sponsorship under my control at the start of a tournament then I would cancel the event.
I have staged over 400 events and have never paid out less than the advertised amount. All the promoters above have earned the trust of the players so why should they run their businesses under a penalty imposed by the conduct of the five major short changing MAJOR transgressors of recent times.
What makes it worse is that the WPA have turned a blind eye on the non payment or fund reducing cases.
 
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Many good points in the latter part of your posting John.
But I thought that you would have a better grasp of economics. It would be virtually impossible to get a sponsor to pay over their sponsorship contribution SIX MONTHS AHEAD. Even less so to a third party. If Matchroom,
Jay Helfert, Mark Griffin, Greg Sullivan, Qatar, Dragon or myself were required to do that then there would be no events.
But if I did not have the total sponsorship under my control at the start of a tournament then I would cancel the event.
I have staged over 400 events and have never paid out less than the advertised amount. All the promoters above have earned the trust of the players so why should they run their businesses under a penalty imposed by the conduct of the five major short changing MAJOR transgressors of recent times.
What makes it worse is that the WPA have turned a blind eye on the non payment or fund reducing cases.

My understanding of economics is just fine. I picked six months as a somewhat arbitrary number but it was based on the idea that one needs a good six months at the least to properly promote a large event in my opinion. These days people need to plan their lives well in advance especially when it comes to international travel to events.

I understand what you are saying in regard to being short on funds six months out but I still think that somehow all the prize money needs to be secured far enough in advance to reassure the players.

I feel that if the players demand it then either it will become the norm or there will be no events. I seriously doubt that it means there will be no events. What I think is that it will open up dates for serious promoters who can secure the financing well in advance.

The issue with getting stiffed isn't a recent problem. At least in the USA it has always been a problem with many pool tournaments.

Any other time the players show up to play for $20,000 the money is posted. I mean when they gamble. So I don't think it's a stretch to ask all promoters to post the money. However if a promoter refuses to do so then the players can elect to play if they want to but no one should cry if the payments don't happen.

I am pretty sure that if there were some sort of player's union then they would make the proper recommendations to their members as to which promoters can be fully trusted and which ones should post.

Although my advice is to make them all post.

And here's a little story to illustrate why.......

Many many many years ago I was approached by my friend at Falcon and asked for some help with a German customer of theirs. This customer had been with them for several years and made increasingly larger purchases. At first they paid in advance then they asked for terms and were granted the ability to purchase on 30 day net terms. All went well for a couple years and then they placed a large order of around $25,000.

Long story short they received the order and communication stopped. That's right, Falcon was stiffed for $25,000. I don't think that they ever recovered the money.

Had they told the distributor to pay up front then they never ever would have had a problem.

So my point is by requiring all promoters to post the money then there is never a situation where "something happens" and the players are the ones left empty handed.

But this is all moot as we all know nothing will change. Pigs will fly before 25 top professional players agree to stand together and stand up for themselves. There will always be the few who will break ranks and go play in the tournaments held by people who won't guarantee the prize fund.
 
My understanding of economics is just fine. I picked six months as a somewhat arbitrary number but it was based on the idea that one needs a good six months at the least to properly promote a large event in my opinion. These days people need to plan their lives well in advance especially when it comes to international travel to events.

I understand what you are saying in regard to being short on funds six months out but I still think that somehow all the prize money needs to be secured far enough in advance to reassure the players.

I feel that if the players demand it then either it will become the norm or there will be no events. I seriously doubt that it means there will be no events. What I think is that it will open up dates for serious promoters who can secure the financing well in advance.

The issue with getting stiffed isn't a recent problem. At least in the USA it has always been a problem with many pool tournaments.

Any other time the players show up to play for $20,000 the money is posted. I mean when they gamble. So I don't think it's a stretch to ask all promoters to post the money. However if a promoter refuses to do so then the players can elect to play if they want to but no one should cry if the payments don't happen.

I am pretty sure that if there were some sort of player's union then they would make the proper recommendations to their members as to which promoters can be fully trusted and which ones should post.

Although my advice is to make them all post.

And here's a little story to illustrate why.......

Many many many years ago I was approached by my friend at Falcon and asked for some help with a German customer of theirs. This customer had been with them for several years and made increasingly larger purchases. At first they paid in advance then they asked for terms and were granted the ability to purchase on 30 day net terms. All went well for a couple years and then they placed a large order of around $25,000.

Long story short they received the order and communication stopped. That's right, Falcon was stiffed for $25,000. I don't think that they ever recovered the money.

Had they told the distributor to pay up front then they never ever would have had a problem.

So my point is by requiring all promoters to post the money then there is never a situation where "something happens" and the players are the ones left empty handed.

But this is all moot as we all know nothing will change. Pigs will fly before 25 top professional players agree to stand together and stand up for themselves. There will always be the few who will break ranks and go play in the tournaments held by people who won't guarantee the prize fund.

It seems that it is many of the MAJOR events that are currently short paying and no-paying the players right now. I hope that the MAJOR events would consider changing the way they make prize money secure for the players but I wouldn't hold my breath.

As to the players uniting, I will hold my breath a little longer but I'm turning blue.

What is the WPA's position on sanctioning and making sure that the prize money is secure for the players?


JoeyA
 
2011 now? Come On...

Rejoice everyone...RAYA SPORTS is back in the headlines at AZ Billiards. They are going to sponsor two big tournaments in April.

Hmmmm........

No thanks.
 
I think you can be fairly certain that any event produced by the official sports organizations of the Emirates, Qatar or China will be good bets.

Fran
I wonder if you noticed that the bulk of the postings this thread are over a year old
 
Our information at the WPA is that all players have been paid in full. No players have approached us to say that they have not been and every player we have asked has said they have received all monies due to them.
 
Fran
I wonder if you noticed that the bulk of the postings this thread are over a year old

Thanks Doug. I didn't notice. Just went back and deleted my answers since the old stuff was obsolete and my response was unnecessary.
 
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