Would Like Some Ideas On Playing Better Shape

Hope you folks don't mind if I interrupt and ask a little question about aiming before you go back to your interesting thoughts about pattern play. I didn't want to start a new thread and I didn't want to go to the aiming forum for what will be obvious reasons..........I find aiming to be completely effortless if the cut is 30 degrees or less no matter how long the shot is in my 8 foot table. I aim for the part of the ball that sends it toward the pocket. I've missed zillions of long shots that were 30 degrees or less but every single one of the misses was caused by squirt and swerve. I'm certainly not alone in this regards and possibly in the majority, and I'm not knocking those who use systems by any means, but I'm wondering: is this the general rule? For those who find aiming effortless, is it something that becomes an effort generally after 30 degrees. I'm not bad at 35 or 40 degrees, but I start missing a bit at that point because I aim wrong. Are there players out there who find aiming to be effortless at up to 40 degrees?
 
That's a great thought, CJ. If you try to get to a spot near the middle of the table and then roll to a cushion instead, your subconscious has taken over for that target... (at least that's what I tell myself!)

A lot of the best position work is done with your brain before you bend to shoot. While there is usually more than one right path or pattern to get the cue ball to a spot(s), check out this three-ball pattern that I've seen a lot of league players do wrong, and some of my simple solutions. These are great especially for people who can run then have trouble with the key ball and 8-ball at the end of the run:

Think Before You Run This One
 
You've gotten some very good advice & ideas. You've probably already heard of this but I'll throw it out anyway just in case you haven't. Throw out a rack of nine ball or maybe 4 solids & 4 stripes with the 8 & then play carom shots off the cue ball to pocket the balls. It's a good way to learn how the move the 'cue' ball differently off of an 'object' ball. Granted you have more flexibility than when shooting a regular shot but you'll still 'see' where the ball hit goes & you can be creative. Or just play 1, 2 or 3 rail carom billiards.

Best of Luck in getting the next leg up,
Rick
 
This is one of the keys that can unlock your next level

That's a great thought, CJ. If you try to get to a spot near the middle of the table and then roll to a cushion instead, your subconscious has taken over for that target... (at least that's what I tell myself!)

A lot of the best position work is done with your brain before you bend to shoot. While there is usually more than one right path or pattern to get the cue ball to a spot(s), check out this three-ball pattern that I've seen a lot of league players do wrong, and some of my simple solutions. These are great especially for people who can run then have trouble with the key ball and 8-ball at the end of the run:

Think Before You Run This One

Yes, completion is something our minds need to accomplish something....Partially accomplishing or completing something is not recommended for consistent success.

The Diamonds are there for many reasons that many players aren't aware of - they're not there for only "diamond systems," they're there for reference points. In my new TIPS Banking Secrets I show how the diamonds connect to your tip/cue ball relationship to create any angle.

This is one of the keys that can unlock your next level because it can be applied to the game physically AND mentally.

'The Game is Indeed the Teacher'
 
Alright: I guess my interruption was inapproppriate::frown: I'm kinda new at this. I was trying to sneak in a question about aiming and the reason I was trying to sneak it in is that because in the short time I've been in these forums I've learned if you say the wrong thing about aiming around here - well: a few people tend to become more than a bit perturbed. I'll start a new thread. Maybe. I actually think aiming is effortless for everybody at 30 degrees and less and those who think otherwise can't realize or don't want to admit that the reason they miss is because of squirt and swerve. Don't tell anybody over at the aiming forum!
 
His Boy Elroy...While I happen to agree that the 30 degree cut (half ball aim) is the most common and comfortable cut and bank angle, you should know that there is NO squirt or swerve when shooting only on the vertical axis...unless you significantly elevate your cuestick. Squirt/deflection occurs only when you shoot with sidespin/english.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I actually think aiming is effortless for everybody at 30 degrees and less and those who think otherwise can't realize or don't want to admit that the reason they miss is because of squirt and swerve. Don't tell anybody over at the aiming forum!
 
Alright: I guess my interruption was inapproppriate::frown: I'm kinda new at this. I was trying to sneak in a question about aiming and the reason I was trying to sneak it in is that because in the short time I've been in these forums I've learned if you say the wrong thing about aiming around here - well: a few people tend to become more than a bit perturbed. I'll start a new thread. Maybe. I actually think aiming is effortless for everybody at 30 degrees and less and those who think otherwise can't realize or don't want to admit that the reason they miss is because of squirt and swerve. Don't tell anybody over at the aiming forum!

'Elroy',

In the bolded statement above, do you mean that the reason that they mis is because they inadvertently hit off center & apply squirt & swerve while intending to hit on the minisculely small vertical axis?

If not what do you mean? Can you please clarify?

Thanks & Regards,
Rick
 
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His Boy Elroy...While I happen to agree that the 30 degree cut (half ball aim) is the most common and comfortable cut and bank angle, you should know that there is NO squirt or swerve when shooting only on the vertical axis...unless you significantly elevate your cuestick. Squirt/deflection occurs only when you shoot with sidespin/english.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Mr. Lee
I can't disagree with you. I learned back in 1971 when I was 11 that when I took the cue straight back, brought it straight forward, and hit the ball right smack in the vertical axis, the ball would have no English on it. If the cut was 30 degrees or less and I did this the ball would go in every time. I spent about five thousand hours in my basement missing balls that were 30 degrees or less. Every time I missed I would say to myself, "Damn! I must have unintentionally put English on that ball!" So after about five thousand hours of this I was putting unintentionally English on the ball a whole lot less frequently than I had five thousand hours earlier, but I was still doing it much to much. After reading these forums, I've learned that if I had hired one of you fine professional unintentionally English exterminators, this might have helped immensely, but I really don' think any of your students has ever walked out a session with you and never again put unintentional English on the ball again. So after five thousand hours of this I came up with an idea. I said to myself, "Instead of letting the English control me, why don't I control the English?" So in 1996 I started putting a touch of English on every shot. When C.J. Wiley started talking about this I was shocked. I thought I invented it. I started trying to read pool books, but I could never get through any after reading the basics. I'm sure they are immensely beneficial to some, but my subconscious is in total charge when I play pool, telling me exactly what I have to work on, and my subconscious being just that, I don't know why. I just obey it. So after learning to shoot with a touch of english I would play well with it, but frequently go into slumps, at which time I would go back to the center ball hit. When I'd go into a slump with that I'd go back to the touch of English. I did this for four thousand hours or so. I guess you could call me a pool eccentric. I recently bought a $200 dollar maple shaft McDermott cue. All my cues previously were J.C Penny models. I don't know why. So I started playing with the McDermott and all I did was miscue for a week. I know nothing about tips. I bought the standard one. Some guy over at the equipment forum told me it was a fine tip and I should sandpaper it. Highly effective! Several years ago I spent 2 hours at Chris' billiards in Chicago just to see what it was like to play on a 9 foot table as opposed to my 8 footer. Some of the shots were longer. Those 2 hours were the only time I'be spent in a pool room in my life. I play only in my basement. You see - I'll estimate i've spent 10,000 hours of my life playing pool, but for the first 9000+ hours I was an awful pool player. As I said, my subconscious is boss here. It told me you can build yourself a cottage or even a nice medium sized house and go to the pool room, or you can stay here in the basement and we'll build ourselves a fine mansion of a stroke, but first were going to have to build a frame, then there's the plumbing and the electrical work, etc. and this isn't going to look good for a while. I didn't want to go to a pool room and not look good so I stayed in my basement and obeyed my subconcious. I've never played family members for this reason, nor do I allow them to watch me play. They know I'm a pool eccentric and they accept it. Sorry,but I pracice the exact way pool instructors tell you not to practice. I'm not interested in pool games. I'm only interested in pocketing balls. I throw fifteen balls out there and bang them in. You might say, there's more to pool than pocketing balls. I might get to that as soon as I perfect this stroke. Anyway: back to my stroke. As I said, I've had 2 different strokes since 1996: center ball hit and touch of English. Eleven months ago I hit a shot and almost jumped out of my skin. It was long with about a 20 degree cut. Maybe you could call it a tester. I hit it and as it was going smack into the center of the pocket it felt like I sent a violin note throughout the world. It felt like my center ball stroke and my touch of English stroke met for the first time, shook hands, and said to each other, "Were going to work together from now on," and worked together for the first time on that shot. So they've been working together for the past 11 months. How are they working together? They seem incompatible. I have no idea how to explain it. All I can tell you is I can't wait to get to the pool table every day. Something fascinating is going on. The way I see it, my pool stroke is not perfect. The imperfections manifest themselves through short circuits. I've seen nine ball games where I'm certain that the reason one guy won is because he made all his long shots that had a 30 degree angle or less, and the loser missed a few of those testers. When I was 11 years old I was unable to hit a major league fastball, but when I was 11 years old I was able to perfectly pocket a long pool shot with a 30 angle or less: the type of shot needed to win professional pool games. It's just that when I was 11 I had imperfections in my stroke which caused my stroke to short circuit on 19 out of 20 of such shots. Today I still have imperfections which cause my stroke to short circuit. This is what I'm trying to eliminate. I'm trying to develop a fail safe stroke that NEVER misses, no matter how long the shot, if the angle is 30 degrees or less. I think this is attainable. Now obviously, if I attain this, I'll still miss such shots because of reasons such as stress, fatigue, inattention, etc., but it won't be because of my stroke which will be fail safe. Now obviously, If I could make a center ball hit and never put unintentional English on the ball I'd already be doing this. But there's no one in the world, as far as I know, who can do this. If this is attainable, it can only be attained by a mastery of squirt and swerve. A mastery of squirt and swerve can only be attained by being excellent, but not perfect, at pocketing balls by making a center ball hit and not producing unintentional English, combined with being excellent, but not perfect, at pocketing balls with a touch of english. Then, as I said, these 2 strokes have to shake hands and work together. I'm working on this every day. So: back to my original post which you responded to Mr. Lee. I find aiming at balls at 30 degrees or less effortless. I know this because, for instance, if I try and make a center ball hit I always know immediately after the ball leaves the tip if I put unintentional English on the ball. If I did not put unintentional English on the ball I simply always make them - at least on my 8 foot table. When the shot angle is more than 30 degrees and I, for instance, make a center ball hit and immediately know after the ball leaves the tip that I did not put unintentional English on the ball, I sometimes miss; therefore it's easy to surmise that aiming for me is effortless at up to 30 degrees and becomes an effort only after 30 degrees. I'm wondering if this is the case for most players. I'm also wondering if what I'm trying to attain: that being a fail safe stroke with no imperfections and hence no short circuits that demonstrates itself on shots of long shots of 30 degrees or less, is already possessed by pro's. I see them miss such shots all the time. I just can't tell if it's because their stroke is not fail-safe and has flaws which leads to short circuits, or it's because of factors such As stress, fatigue, carelessness, etc.
.........You caught me on a good night. I'm usually kinda bashful.
 
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1996 was a great year for the "Touch" of Inside Technique

Mr. Lee
I can't disagree with you. I learned back in 1971 when I was 11 that when I took the cue straight back, brought it straight forward, and hit the ball right smack in the vertical axis, the ball would have no English on it. If the cut was 30 degrees or less and I did this the ball would go in every time. I spent about five thousand hours in my basement missing balls that were 30 degrees or less. Every time I missed I would say to myself, "Damn! I must have unintentionally put English on that ball!" So after about five thousand hours of this I was putting unintentionally English on the ball a whole lot less frequently than I had five thousand hours earlier, but I was still doing it much to much. After reading these forums, I've learned that if I had hired one of you fine professional unintentionally English exterminators, this might have helped immensely, but I really don' think any of your students has ever walked out a session with you and never again put unintentional English on the ball again. So after five thousand hours of this I came up with an idea. I said to myself, "Instead of letting the English control me, why don't I control the English?" So in 1996 I started putting a touch of English on every shot. When C.J. Wiley started talking about this I was shocked. I thought I invented it. I started trying to read pool books, but I could never get through any after reading the basics. I'm sure they are immensely beneficial to some, but my subconscious is in total charge when I play pool, telling me exactly what I have to work on, and my subconscious being just that, I don't know why. I just obey it. So after learning to shoot with a touch of english I would play well with it, but frequently go into slumps, at which time I would go back to the center ball hit. When I'd go into a slump with that I'd go back to the touch of English. I did this for four thousand hours or so. I guess you could call me a pool eccentric. I recently bought a $200 dollar maple shaft McDermott cue. All my cues previously were J.C Penny models. I don't know why. So I started playing with the McDermott and all I did was miscue for a week. I know nothing about tips. I bought the standard one. Some guy over at the equipment forum told me it was a fine tip and I should sandpaper it. Highly effective! Several years ago I spent 2 hours at Chris' billiards in Chicago just to see what it was like to play on a 9 foot table as opposed to my 8 footer. Some of the shots were longer. Those 2 hours were the only time I'be spent in a pool room in my life. I play only in my basement. You see - I'll estimate i've spent 10,000 hours of my life playing pool, but for the first 9000+ hours I was an awful pool player. As I said, my subconscious is boss here. It told me you can build yourself a cottage or even a nice medium sized house and go to the pool room, or you can stay here in the basement and we'll build ourselves a fine mansion of a stroke, but first were going to have to build a frame, then there's the plumbing and the electrical work, etc. and this isn't going to look good for a while. I didn't want to go to a pool room and not look good so I stayed in my basement and obeyed my subconcious. I've never played family members for this reason, nor do I allow them to watch me play. They know I'm a pool eccentric and they accept it. Sorry,but I pracice the exact way pool instructors tell you not to practice. I'm not interested in pool games. I'm only interested in pocketing balls. I throw fifteen balls out there and bang them in. You might say, there's more to pool than pocketing balls. I might get to that as soon as I perfect this stroke. Anyway: back to my stroke. As I said, I've had 2 different strokes since 1996: center ball hit and touch of English. Eleven months ago I hit a shot and almost jumped out of my skin. It was long with about a 20 degree cut. Maybe you could call it a tester. I hit it and as it was going smack into the center of the pocket it felt like I sent a violin note throughout the world. It felt like my center ball stroke and my touch of English stroke met for the first time, shook hands, and said to each other, "Were going to work together from now on," and worked together for the first time on that shot. So they've been working together for the past 11 months. How are they working together? They seem incompatible. I have no idea how to explain it. All I can tell you is I can't wait to get to the pool table every day. Something fascinating is going on. The way I see it, my pool stroke is not perfect. The imperfections manifest themselves through short circuits. I've seen nine ball games where I'm certain that the reason one guy won is because he made all his long shots that had a 30 degree angle or less, and the loser missed a few of those testers. When I was 11 years old I was unable to hit a major league fastball, but when I was 11 years old I was able to perfectly pocket a long pool shot with a 30 angle or less: the type of shot needed to win professional pool games. It's just that when I was 11 I had imperfections in my stroke which caused my stroke to short circuit on 19 out of 20 of such shots. Today I still have imperfections which cause my stroke to short circuit. This is what I'm trying to eliminate. I'm trying to develop a fail safe stroke that NEVER misses, no matter how long the shot, if the angle is 30 degrees or less. I think this is attainable. Now obviously, if I attain this, I'll still miss such shots because of reasons such as stress, fatigue, inattention, etc., but it won't be because of my stroke which will be fail safe. Now obviously, If I could make a center ball hit and never put unintentional English on the ball I'd already be doing this. But there's no one in the world, as far as I know, who can do this. If this is attainable, it can only be attained by a mastery of squirt and swerve. A mastery of squirt and swerve can only be attained by being excellent, but not perfect, at pocketing balls by making a center ball hit and not producing unintentional English, combined with being excellent, but not perfect, at pocketing balls with a touch of english. Then, as I said, these 2 strokes have to shake hands and work together. I'm working on this every day. So: back to my original post which you responded to Mr. Lee. I find aiming at balls at 30 degrees or less effortless. I know this because, for instance, if I try and make a center ball hit I always know immediately after the ball leaves the tip if I put unintentional English on the ball. If I did not put unintentional English on the ball I simply always make them - at least on my 8 foot table. When the shot angle is more than 30 degrees and I, for instance, make a center ball hit and immediately know after the ball leaves the tip that I did not put unintentional English on the ball, I sometimes miss; therefore it's easy to surmise that aiming for me is effortless at up to 30 degrees and becomes an effort only after 30 degrees. I'm wondering if this is the case for most players. I'm also wondering if what I'm trying to attain: that being a fail safe stroke with no imperfections and hence no short circuits that demonstrates itself on shots of long shots of 30 degrees or less, is already possessed by pro's. I see them miss such shots all the time. I just can't tell if it's because their stroke is not fail-safe and has flaws which leads to short circuits, or it's because of factors such As stress, fatigue, carelessness, etc.
.........You caught me on a good night. I'm usually kinda bashful.


1996 was a great year for the "Touch" of Inside, that's for sure. Glad you like the system, it does make common sense, especially after a few thousand hours. ;)
 
Mr. Lee
I can't disagree with you. I learned back in 1971 when I was 11 that when I took the cue straight back, brought it straight forward, and hit the ball right smack in the vertical axis, the ball would have no English on it. If the cut was 30 degrees or less and I did this the ball would go in every time. I spent about five thousand hours in my basement missing balls that were 30 degrees or less. Every time I missed I would say to myself, "Damn! I must have unintentionally put English on that ball!" So after about five thousand hours of this I was putting unintentionally English on the ball a whole lot less frequently than I had five thousand hours earlier, but I was still doing it much to much. After reading these forums, I've learned that if I had hired one of you fine professional unintentionally English exterminators, this might have helped immensely, but I really don' think any of your students has ever walked out a session with you and never again put unintentional English on the ball again. So after five thousand hours of this I came up with an idea. I said to myself, "Instead of letting the English control me, why don't I control the English?" So in 1996 I started putting a touch of English on every shot. When C.J. Wiley started talking about this I was shocked. I thought I invented it. I started trying to read pool books, but I could never get through any after reading the basics. I'm sure they are immensely beneficial to some, but my subconscious is in total charge when I play pool, telling me exactly what I have to work on, and my subconscious being just that, I don't know why. I just obey it. So after learning to shoot with a touch of english I would play well with it, but frequently go into slumps, at which time I would go back to the center ball hit. When I'd go into a slump with that I'd go back to the touch of English. I did this for four thousand hours or so. I guess you could call me a pool eccentric. I recently bought a $200 dollar maple shaft McDermott cue. All my cues previously were J.C Penny models. I don't know why. So I started playing with the McDermott and all I did was miscue for a week. I know nothing about tips. I bought the standard one. Some guy over at the equipment forum told me it was a fine tip and I should sandpaper it. Highly effective! Several years ago I spent 2 hours at Chris' billiards in Chicago just to see what it was like to play on a 9 foot table as opposed to my 8 footer. Some of the shots were longer. Those 2 hours were the only time I'be spent in a pool room in my life. I play only in my basement. You see - I'll estimate i've spent 10,000 hours of my life playing pool, but for the first 9000+ hours I was an awful pool player. As I said, my subconscious is boss here. It told me you can build yourself a cottage or even a nice medium sized house and go to the pool room, or you can stay here in the basement and we'll build ourselves a fine mansion of a stroke, but first were going to have to build a frame, then there's the plumbing and the electrical work, etc. and this isn't going to look good for a while. I didn't want to go to a pool room and not look good so I stayed in my basement and obeyed my subconcious. I've never played family members for this reason, nor do I allow them to watch me play. They know I'm a pool eccentric and they accept it. Sorry,but I pracice the exact way pool instructors tell you not to practice. I'm not interested in pool games. I'm only interested in pocketing balls. I throw fifteen balls out there and bang them in. You might say, there's more to pool than pocketing balls. I might get to that as soon as I perfect this stroke. Anyway: back to my stroke. As I said, I've had 2 different strokes since 1996: center ball hit and touch of English. Eleven months ago I hit a shot and almost jumped out of my skin. It was long with about a 20 degree cut. Maybe you could call it a tester. I hit it and as it was going smack into the center of the pocket it felt like I sent a violin note throughout the world. It felt like my center ball stroke and my touch of English stroke met for the first time, shook hands, and said to each other, "Were going to work together from now on," and worked together for the first time on that shot. So they've been working together for the past 11 months. How are they working together? They seem incompatible. I have no idea how to explain it. All I can tell you is I can't wait to get to the pool table every day. Something fascinating is going on. The way I see it, my pool stroke is not perfect. The imperfections manifest themselves through short circuits. I've seen nine ball games where I'm certain that the reason one guy won is because he made all his long shots that had a 30 degree angle or less, and the loser missed a few of those testers. When I was 11 years old I was unable to hit a major league fastball, but when I was 11 years old I was able to perfectly pocket a long pool shot with a 30 angle or less: the type of shot needed to win professional pool games. It's just that when I was 11 I had imperfections in my stroke which caused my stroke to short circuit on 19 out of 20 of such shots. Today I still have imperfections which cause my stroke to short circuit. This is what I'm trying to eliminate. I'm trying to develop a fail safe stroke that NEVER misses, no matter how long the shot, if the angle is 30 degrees or less. I think this is attainable. Now obviously, if I attain this, I'll still miss such shots because of reasons such as stress, fatigue, inattention, etc., but it won't be because of my stroke which will be fail safe. Now obviously, If I could make a center ball hit and never put unintentional English on the ball I'd already be doing this. But there's no one in the world, as far as I know, who can do this. If this is attainable, it can only be attained by a mastery of squirt and swerve. A mastery of squirt and swerve can only be attained by being excellent, but not perfect, at pocketing balls by making a center ball hit and not producing unintentional English, combined with being excellent, but not perfect, at pocketing balls with a touch of english. Then, as I said, these 2 strokes have to shake hands and work together. I'm working on this every day. So: back to my original post which you responded to Mr. Lee. I find aiming at balls at 30 degrees or less effortless. I know this because, for instance, if I try and make a center ball hit I always know immediately after the ball leaves the tip if I put unintentional English on the ball. If I did not put unintentional English on the ball I simply always make them - at least on my 8 foot table. When the shot angle is more than 30 degrees and I, for instance, make a center ball hit and immediately know after the ball leaves the tip that I did not put unintentional English on the ball, I sometimes miss; therefore it's easy to surmise that aiming for me is effortless at up to 30 degrees and becomes an effort only after 30 degrees. I'm wondering if this is the case for most players. I'm also wondering if what I'm trying to attain: that being a fail safe stroke with no imperfections and hence no short circuits that demonstrates itself on shots of long shots of 30 degrees or less, is already possessed by pro's. I see them miss such shots all the time. I just can't tell if it's because their stroke is not fail-safe and has flaws which leads to short circuits, or it's because of factors such As stress, fatigue, carelessness, etc.
.........You caught me on a good night. I'm usually kinda bashful.

I agree that most have trouble hitting center ball. Actually, it's not just center ball, they have trouble hitting the cb where they intend to hit it. That is due to improper fundamentals.

Now, as you found out, hitting center cb, you get no english. This will always be true. You took the route of intentionally applying a little english, figuring you were going to apply it by accident anyways because you couldn't reliably hit center ball. On the surface, that seems like a perfectly logical and easy solution. In reality, it doesn't fix a thing.

This is why it doesn't fix anything- anytime you hit the cb off center, the cue will deflect, and the cb will squirt. Under certain conditions, the cb will also swerve back towards the intended line also. Now, this is where your logic fails you- how much your cb will squirt is dependent on the end mass of your cue. Speed has really no effect on it. Speed comes into play with how much the cb will swerve back to the intended line, and when it will start to do that.

Knowing that, we must now take into consideration the squirt of the cb. How much will it squirt? Well, if it squirted the same for all distances off of center cb, your logic would hold up. However, it doesn't. For example, numbers not correct, just thrown out there to prove a point, lets say that with 1/4 tip off center your cue ball will squirt 3 degrees off line. Now, when you hit 1/2 tip off center, your cb squirts 5 degrees off line.

What we know, is that the farther from center cb you get, the more the cb will squirt. What does this mean to us? Well, you say you miss because you got unintentional squirt because you didn't hit center cb. Fine. However, if you can't intentionally hit where you are aiming, being center cb, what makes you think you can reliably hit anywhere else on the cb? And, since you can't reliably hit anywhere else on the cb, the amount of squirt you do get will vary with each shot. Hence, you haven't solved anything by using inside. You have only substituted one problem for another problem, which actually is still the same problem- you can't hit the cb where you intend to hit it.

So, as you can now see, using inside on purpose to avoid the problems of unintentional squirt is a fallacy. It is a fallacy because you aren't controlling how much the cb actually squirts, so you have the exact same problem you had before.

No human is ever going to achieve 100% perfect stroke every time. It can't be done. However, with proper fundamentals and training, you can get as close to that mythical 100% as is humanly possible. You also mentioned pros missing easy shots. There are a number of reasons that does happen. Such as being less than 100% perfect with their stroke, taking that easy shot for granted and concentrating too much on position, nerves causing them to tighten up and mess up their stroke, just feeling that the ball can't be missed, and skipping the steps on what it actually does take to make the ball, skids, cling or CIT, ect. The best thing you can do for your game is to get a straight repeatable stroke. Everything in the game comes off of that. It is the foundation that everything else rests on.
 
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feedback when you never know which side you're actually hitting?

'Elroy',

In the bolded statement above, do you mean that the reason that they mis is because they inadvertently hit off center & apply squirt & swerve while intending to hit on the minisculely small vertical axis?

If not what do you mean? Can you please clarify?

Thanks & Regards,
Rick

It's funny to see people try to play hitting "center ball," not thinking there's any spin on the cue ball. There's always some kind of spin imparted on the cue ball, then there's "after contact spin" that's also a factor (yes, even when you "try" to use center english).

I'm glad you understand, Rick, using "center english" is like driving a car that has a steering wheel that may go left when your turn it right. This is what happens when a player "tries" to hit center and is a fraction off one way or the other......the cue ball deflects One Way or the Other....and there's practically no way to get accurate feedback when you never know which side you're actually hitting.

In the TOI Technique or any of the similar techniques used, the champions will always favor one side of the cue ball or the other....that way they get precise, accurate feedback and make the necessary adjustments when they "miss" fire. 'The Game is then the Teacher'
 
It's funny to see people try to play hitting "center ball," not thinking there's any spin on the cue ball. There's always some kind of spin imparted on the cue ball, then there's "after contact spin" that's also a factor (yes, even when you "try" to use center english).

I'm glad you understand, Rick, using "center english" is like driving a car that has a steering wheel that may go left when your turn it right. This is what happens when a player "tries" to hit center and is a fraction off one way or the other......the cue ball deflects One Way or the Other....and there's practically no way to get accurate feedback when you never know which side you're actually hitting.

In the TOI Technique or any of the similar techniques used, the champions will always favor one side of the cue ball or the other....that way they get precise, accurate feedback and make the necessary adjustments when they "miss" fire. 'The Game is then the Teacher'

It's also funny to see you say what you just did, after for so long insisting that your TOI was with no spin. But, glad to see that you finally see the light. As far as no spin on a center ball hit, obviously, that is true. How often will that actually happen? Very rarely. However, having so little spin that it is negligible to the shot is not by any means out of reach. Shooting a stop shot and having the cb stop dead is not out of reach by a long shot.

As to your steering wheel analogy, well, my hat's off to you for trying to help people, but that bucket holds no water.
 
I appreciate the comments, but in 1996 when I started to use a touch of English - I mean A TOUCH! I don't go a quarter of a tip out. I put as small amount of English on the ball as possible. I leave the vertical axis with my tip so slightly that someone watching would think I'm hitting center ball. When I do this squirt and swerve is effortlessly dealt with. When I started doing this my game changed drastically. It was much easier to control the cue ball this way than let the cue ball control me when I tried to hit center ball and produced unintentional English. As I said in my long post, however, I would go into slumps with the touch of English at which point I would go back to the center ball hit. At this point I found that I was producing far less unintentional English that I had been previously and I was convinced it was because I developed a "touch" while using a touch of English that helped me gain more control of my center ball hit. Then, after playing with center ball hit I would go back to the touch of English and I would discovery touch of English stroke had improved. I became convinced this was because I had developed a "touch" using center ball that helped with my touch of English. At this point I was equally adept at both strokes. When I would go into slumps with one stroke I would play with the other stroke. Last August my center ball stroke and my touch of English stroke became one stroke. At this point you might be thinking your talking to a nut case. I understand. 10,000 hours is a lot of hours, but I've done it over 42 years so It's not like I'm obsessed with pool. I decided a long time ago that I wanted to see if I could perfect the pool stroke but I only wanted to put so many hours into it so I decided to put aside pool matches and all related things and stay in my basement and see if I could do it. I've never tried playing 14.1. In golf the guys who win the long driving contests are rarely pros. They're guys with regular jobs and the only thing they do really well in golf is hit drives. So what do I mean when I say my center ball stroke and my touch of english stroke merged and became one stroke? I simply have no idea how to explain this? If you were to ask me what am I doing these days? Are you hitting the ball with center ball or touch of English, I couldn't answer you. I'd just have to throw my hands up in the air in frustration with my inability to answer. This is still a work in progress and I wouldn't want anybody watching me shoot today. It's just that the pool stroke has become an artistic expression for me and the more I enter into the realm of the artistic the more rapidly I progress. As I said, I'm sure pool books are highly beneficial to some, and I'm I'm no better than the folks they are beneficial to, it's just that they don't talk about the things I'm experiencing so I don't read them. I dunno. Sometime in the not too distant future I'll produce a video of myself banging in balls and put it on You Tube. You'll see.
 
Your guess is as good as mine.

It's also funny to see you say what you just did, after for so long insisting that your TOI was with no spin. But, glad to see that you finally see the light. As far as no spin on a center ball hit, obviously, that is true. How often will that actually happen? Very rarely. However, having so little spin that it is negligible to the shot is not by any means out of reach. Shooting a stop shot and having the cb stop dead is not out of reach by a long shot.

As to your steering wheel analogy, well, my hat's off to you for trying to help people, but that bucket holds no water.

It would be impressive to see someone hit a cue ball with absolutely no spin.

I was considered one of the most accurate shot makers in the world and I would never claim to be able to achieve this, and wouldn't desire to try.

The game of pool is best played when we admit that we are human and can't play perfectly. Then, occasionally something happens and we are given the power to play perfectly.....where does this power come from and where does it go? Your guess is as good as mine. ;) For me this only happened when using the "Touch" of Inside {knowledge}. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
the foundation is in the cue {ball targeting} precision.

[
QUOTE=His Boy Elroy;4274309]I appreciate the comments, but in 1996 when I started to use a touch of English - I mean A TOUCH!

Yes, that means your stoke is very pure. When I apply "The Touch" no one can really see it unless they're really close. The challenge is many players don't have that accurate of a stroke so they have to use slightly more, then reduce it as their stoking ability and accuracy increase.

Improvement comes in levels, and the foundation is in the cue {ball targeting} precision.
 
It would be impressive to see someone hit a cue ball with absolutely no spin.

I was considered one of the most accurate shot makers in the world and I would never claim to be able to achieve this, and wouldn't desire to try.

The game of pool is best played when we admit that we are human and can't play perfectly. Then, occasionally something happens and we are given the power to play perfectly.....where does this power come from and where does it go? Your guess is as good as mine. ;) For me this only happened when using the "Touch" of Inside {knowledge}. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Because you won't even try is exactly why you can't do it. So, you are saying that is impossible for a human to hit a cb to the end rail, freeze until the cb rebounds back to their tip and have it stop dead on their tip. There are many on here that have done that. And if you think you can't do that, you are missing out.

Both of you guys are saying that you can't hit center ball, but you can hit just a hair from center reliably. Baloney. If you can reliably hit one spot on the cb, you can reliably hit another spot. So, if your cue has so little deflection to it that your cb squirts noticeably with 1/16 of a tip of english, which is about the space between these letters, than you need to go get a real cue. Second, if it does cause the cb to squirt noticeably at that little difference, and you can't hit center ball reliably, which means you can't hit where you want to reliably, then you can't control the squirt you are getting. You can't adjust, because you can't hit that small a spot reliably anyways.
 
I was going to ask this after Elroy's original post but didn't want to aid in the hijacking :wink:

Apparently the hijacking happened anyway, so I guess I can ask ...

When Elroy says, "I find aiming to be completely effortless if the cut is 30 degrees or less"

and

"I've missed zillions of long shots that were 30 degrees or less but every single one of the misses was caused by squirt and swerve,"

... could his problem possibly be throw and not an inaccurate hit on the CB?

I'm asking because I'm working on a new set-up and stroke routine taught me by Scott Lee. It's working flawlessly ... dead straight almost without fail. I can run the ball up and back the length of the table and hit my tip—or very close to it—on virtually every attempt. There's only one small problem: I can't sink shit.

I'm shooting straighter than I ever have and am shooting worse than I ever have.

So I've been reading a lot and am wondering if this 'throw' thing might be my trouble. And after reading Elroy's OP, his problem sounded a little like mine, Except for the "completely effortless" part, that is.

Anyway, any input would be greatly appreciated,

Thanks,
Harvey

Apologies to lstevedus
 
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I was going to ask this after Elroy's original post but didn't want to aid in the hijacking :wink:

Apparently the hijacking happened anyway, so I guess I can ask ...

When Elroy says, "I find aiming to be completely effortless if the cut is 30 degrees or less"

and

"I've missed zillions of long shots that were 30 degrees or less but every single one of the misses was caused by squirt and swerve,"

... could his problem possibly be throw and not an inaccurate hit on the CB?

I'm asking because I'm working on a new set-up and stroke routine taught me by Scott Lee. It's working flawlessly ... dead straight almost without fail. I can run the ball up and back the length of the table and hit my tip—or very close to it—on virtually every attempt. There's only one small problem: I can't sink shit.

I'm shooting straighter than I ever have and am shooting worse than I ever have.

So I've been reading a lot and am wondering if this 'throw' thing might be my trouble. And after reading Elroy's OP, his problem sounded a little like mine, Except for the "completely effortless" part, that is.

Anyway, any input would be greatly appreciated,

Thanks,
Harvey

Apologies to lstevedus

Harvey, that's not an uncommon problem. I have found that it usually arises because previously you had your head in a different position over the cue, and automatically over time compensated for how you were actually seeing the balls to how to make it.

Now, with a straight stroke, you actually see things differently because of the way you are over the cue. To some degree, you now have to relearn how to aim. However, don't be discouraged by it! Relearning how to aim won't take long, and with a now straighter stroke, your game will come up higher than it was before. It's the old adage of taking one step back to take two steps forward.

I'm sure Scott had to of mentioned that to you, but you might have missed it or it didn't quite register at the time.??
 
First of all, I have a really good cue these days. Secondly, your logic makes absolutely perfect sense. How can one claim to be unable to hit the ball consistently in the center but claim to be able to hit the ball consistently 1/16 of a tip off center. As I said, your logic makes perfect sense. I've thought about this much myself. All I can tell you is that at least back in 1996 I found it much easier to hit the ball 1/16 of an inch off center than directly on center. Why this is the case since logically it makes no sense? I have no idea. I'm not self- righteous about this. Pool is a game where the elusiveness of it's secrets makes self- righteousness inappropriate. I'm not a bowler, but why do they always curve the ball in? Why do golfers always fade or draw their drives? Not being a bowler or a golfer I really don't know. All I can say is that in my experience, the center ball hit can get you far, but only so far. Your going to hit a wall with it where progress stops. At that time, for heaven sakes, keep practicing the center ball hit and don't let your skill at it diminish one bit, but start seeing what you can do with the touch of English. You might be surprised at the enormous benefits aquiring that skill can bring.
 
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