Would you? If you could!

D C 6 Pocket

D C 6 Pocket

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What If……… there was a way you could place wagers on pool like there is on other sports like, Football – NASCAR - Golf – Horse Racing – at Vegas Casinos or other sports book facilities…………would you bet if………

There were odds on who’s the favorite to win the tournament, over and under bets, individual match ups with point spreads and any other way you can think of to place bets? Do you think it would help or hurt to create new interest in billiards overall?

Inquiring minds want to know!:D
 
Yes, I do it. A site I use occasionally has European matches up for live betting. You can bet who wins a match, who wins a rack, how many balls are made on the break, etc.

When it's live betting they have a stream up so you can sweat it. It's fun even if it's relatively unknown players.
 
Wasn't that one of the original underlying concepts behind the IPT? Kevin was one pretty smart character. Notice he never spent a day in jail for the millions of dollars he removed from peoples pockets?

Lyn
 
If Vegas took bets on pool and the Internet it be a big shot in the arm for pool. A very big one. And for you non-gamblers...just don't bet. But don't try to ruin it for the rest that do. Johnnyt
 
D C 6 Pocket said:
What If……… there was a way you could place wagers on pool like there is on other sports like, Football – NASCAR - Golf – Horse Racing – at Vegas Casinos or other sports book facilities…………would you bet if………

There were odds on who’s the favorite to win the tournament, over and under bets, individual match ups with point spreads and any other way you can think of to place bets? Do you think it would help or hurt to create new interest in billiards overall?

Inquiring minds want to know!:D
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I would do it just as much as I do to bet on other sports - NONE. :embarrassed2:
 
As much as I'd like to bet on pool matches I wouldn't. Too many players throw matches. I've seen big name top players blatantly throw matches - Buddy Hall, Efren Reyes, Jose Parica just to name a few.

Ralf Souquet is probably the only player I'd bet on, I feel he's an honest guy (I could be wrong) and he always seems to give it his best.
 
I'd probably only bother at big events if I had a strong interest in the players. Something like the Mosconi Cup or World team events would be good, neutral events where you can reasonably expect the players are trying their best.

The big issue if this ever took off in the USA is the history of egregious abuse of betting by the players and backers. (Just do a search for the 1991 Challenge Of Champions event won by "Spanish" Mike Lebron at 20-1 odds, widely believed to have been a giant dump by all the other Pros in the event) My understanding is that even places where it is legal, like Las Vegas, won't even bother running a book on Pool events because of this kind of issue. Of course it could also be because of the appallingly low profile Pro Pool has in the USA. I went to watch the Mosconi Cup event at the MGM Grand once and actually asked if I could place a bet at the Sports betting desk. (On Team Europe to win of course :) ) The guy behind the counter didn't even know the event was taking place at his hotel!
 
Vegas did have lines for the Challenge of Champions and I don't think they liked the outcome. I like the idea of being able to bet on pool matches, but I think it is easier to rig then other sports. First off, pool players are not paid like other athletes, not even close. If you offered a basketball or baseball player 100K to 'not try their hardest', they would probably just laugh. 100K would not change there life one bit. However, I think 100K may mean a lot to some of these pool players and throwing a match may not be out of the question. I would like to believe that most of the professional pool players would not do something like this. I don't think anybody can say that cutting people up doesn't happen already for much smaller amounts. There are players out there who would never think about playing their best at all times, and these players should get the respect they deserve. I don't think you would have to worry about any funny business if you bet on the winner of a tournament, but individual matches could get a little stetchy, imo. I think having reasonable betting limits would work out good. I like the idea, and actually did bet some pool matches on Stan James before they blocked U.S. accounts.
 
cardiac kid said:
Wasn't that one of the original underlying concepts behind the IPT?
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Mr. Tredeu CLAIMED it was, after having publicly stated multiple times that the whole venture was supposed to be funded byadvertising/sponsorship sales driven by strong TV coverage, not to mention from his own personal funds whether it made a profit or not. (See his Billiards Digest interview in 2006 if you really feel like torturing yourself.)

I've never seen a shred of evidence that there was ever any serious effort to setup online gambling, and that even if it had been possible that it would have been a viable business model for the IPT. The simplest explanation is he simply made this up (as well as even more bizarre nonsense about floating the IPT on the London stock exchange) as an excuse to get out of his obligations once he realized the IPT was incapable of making any money with his original business model. (I.E. He couldn't get any decent sponsorship/advertising revenue)

Of course anyone with any knowledge of the industry could have predicted this right from the start. If he simply stated this plan up-front he might have gotten some support from the industry and a chance to do it legally. But taking advice was not the IPT way.

The one thing you can argue the IPT did have going for it was that, with a sufficiently large prize purse going deep into the tournament (Everyone got $2000 just for showing up) and elimination of the bottom tier of players at the end of the season it could theoretically reduce the motivation for dumping and scamming the system. Players would genuinely want to win as much as possible to make a living income and ensure placement in the next season, just like in "real" Pro sports.

However the experience in qualifiers where he gave out on-the-spot cash prizes for 8 Balls on the break to encourage dramatic break shots showed that no good deed in Pro Pool ever goes unpunished. (Players made side deals with each to not run-out if they went for big breaks and scratched etc.)
 
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Aunty,

Nothing in your post to challenge. It's just so sad everytime the game gets someone to belly up to the bar and put some real money in, a shot, a game or a match gets publicly thrown. We, the pool community, could screw up a wet dream!

Lyn
 
cardiac kid said:
Aunty,

Nothing in your post to challenge. It's just so sad everytime the game gets someone to belly up to the bar and put some real money in, a shot, a game or a match gets publicly thrown.

Lyn
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The biggest disappointment of the IPT for me is not that it failed because of a few stupid Pro players doing deals in qualifiers but that it actually could have worked with the right organization and people behind it.

I really don't think it's impossible to achieve. I think if you gave the budget the IPT had to some of the smart, honest people already in the US Pro Pool community you could achieve a high-quality, reasonably well paying, open and honest national Pro Tour. Unfortunately as far as I can tell the only people who ever put that kind of money into our game to date have been somewhat less than smart or honest.
 
AuntyDan said:
I'd probably only bother at big events if I had a strong interest in the players. Something like the Mosconi Cup or World team events would be good, neutral events where you can reasonably expect the players are trying their best.

The big issue if this ever took off in the USA is the history of egregious abuse of betting by the players and backers. (Just do a search for the 1991 Challenge Of Champions event won by "Spanish" Mike Lebron at 20-1 odds, widely believed to have been a giant dump by all the other Pros in the event) My understanding is that even places where it is legal, like Las Vegas, won't even bother running a book on Pool events because of this kind of issue. Of course it could also be because of the appallingly low profile Pro Pool has in the USA. I went to watch the Mosconi Cup event at the MGM Grand once and actually asked if I could place a bet at the Sports betting desk. (On Team Europe to win of course :) ) The guy behind the counter didn't even know the event was taking place at his hotel!
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I vaguely remember hearing about this at the time, but Jay Helfert makes mention of this in his book. I think he was the referee during the match.
So, you burn the casino once and you don't get a second chance.
 
AuntyDan said:
I'd probably only bother at big events if I had a strong interest in the players. Something like the Mosconi Cup or World team events would be good, neutral events where you can reasonably expect the players are trying their best.

The big issue if this ever took off in the USA is the history of egregious abuse of betting by the players and backers. (Just do a search for the 1991 Challenge Of Champions event won by "Spanish" Mike Lebron at 20-1 odds, widely believed to have been a giant dump by all the other Pros in the event) My understanding is that even places where it is legal, like Las Vegas, won't even bother running a book on Pool events because of this kind of issue. Of course it could also be because of the appallingly low profile Pro Pool has in the USA. I went to watch the Mosconi Cup event at the MGM Grand once and actually asked if I could place a bet at the Sports betting desk. (On Team Europe to win of course :) ) The guy behind the counter didn't even know the event was taking place at his hotel!
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That was the final where he "beat" Buddy Hall. It was painfully clear to everyone who watched it that Buddy was dumping. He kept missing and leaving an ideal runout and somehow Lebron still couldn't run out and Buddy was exasperated everytime he had to come back to the table.
 
nope, not seriously

any time a purse is big enough players will split it, the sport would need IPT style payouts for a few years before I'd even consider it

this is coming from someone who has been sports betting religiously since 16

most i would do is 5-10 bucks on some parlay action
 
AuntyDan said:
I'd probably only bother at big events if I had a strong interest in the players. Something like the Mosconi Cup or World team events would be good, neutral events where you can reasonably expect the players are trying their best.

The big issue if this ever took off in the USA is the history of egregious abuse of betting by the players and backers. (Just do a search for the 1991 Challenge Of Champions event won by "Spanish" Mike Lebron at 20-1 odds, widely believed to have been a giant dump by all the other Pros in the event) My understanding is that even places where it is legal, like Las Vegas, won't even bother running a book on Pool events because of this kind of issue. Of course it could also be because of the appallingly low profile Pro Pool has in the USA. I went to watch the Mosconi Cup event at the MGM Grand once and actually asked if I could place a bet at the Sports betting desk. (On Team Europe to win of course :) ) The guy behind the counter didn't even know the event was taking place at his hotel!
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How about a tournament where there is no way to fix/dump!! How about a tournament where the last 20/30 players are all playing at the same time to determine the winner!! How about a tournament with no way to fix because you don't know who to fix it with!! Does this make it better? :thumbup:
 
It will never happen. Because the payoffs are so small some poolplayers will find a way to take advantage in any way they can.

An example was a qualifier for the IPT that I played in the the Hard Times in Los Angeles with an entry Of $2k. Keven T. decided to award $1000 for any eight ball that was banked in. In my first match I did bank in one eight ball.

In another match that was in progress the two players involved agreed between themselves that they would bank every eight ball in their match. Well when the IPT people discovered this they put a stop to the bonus award. Needless to say for the tournament I had a total of four banked eight balls but only the first one counted. I lost out on $3000.
 
D C 6 Pocket said:
How about a tournament where there is no way to fix/dump!! How about a tournament where the last 20/30 players are all playing at the same time to determine the winner!! How about a tournament with no way to fix because you don't know who to fix it with!! Does this make it better? :thumbup:
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I know exactly what you are getting at and it will work. Johnnyt
 
D C 6 Pocket said:
How about a tournament where there is no way to fix/dump!! How about a tournament where the last 20/30 players are all playing at the same time to determine the winner!! How about a tournament with no way to fix because you don't know who to fix it with!! Does this make it better? :thumbup:
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How would this tourney work? So, there would be no 2 person final match?
 
rossaroni said:
How would this tourney work? So, there would be no 2 person final match?
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Correct.....there would absolutely not be a 2 person final. Think more in terms of an NFL game day and you had to pick the team that was going to post the highest score that day out of all 28/30 teams playing that day........before kick off.
Imagine I pick the Broncos, you pick the Dolphins and Johnnyt picks the bucks and we bet which team scores the most points.........Oh, by the way, these 3 teams are not playing each other...........changes things, right?:thumbup:
 
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