WPA Revises World 10-Ball Rules !

Jerry Forsyth said:
While many who observe the game just as closely as I do will say that luck does not often come into play on the pro level I seem to see it all the time, and it always comes up at critical moment that overly rewards the fluke. Watching two players fight to get to double-hill only to have one of them lose to the luck of a 9 ball falling on the break is just not right (IMO).
Click to expand...
I too like the new rules. They are a step in the right direction in order to make the game more skillful. However, the 10-ball on the break should not count as a win-- no matter how seldomly it occurs. Also the 10-ball should be the last ball made, just as in 8 ball. If it's pocketed earlier from a legal combination, it should be spotted up, and the player may continue to shoot.

Doc
 
9.6 Safety
The shooter, after the break at anytime may call ?safety? which permits him to make contact with the legal object ball without pocketing a ball and end his inning. However, if the shooter pockets the legal object ball the incoming player has the option to play the shot as left, or hand it back to his opponent. (See 9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls which also applies during a safety.)


9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.
Click to expand...
I like these modifications a lot.

Hmmm...I wonder if the WPA rules committee reads these forums?

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=1045991#post1045991

;)
 
Luxury said:
For the viewer one of the most exciting things that can happen is the money ball on the break. Baseball has the home run, football has the kickoff return for a touchdown, basket ball has the slam dunk but lets not have anything for the pool crowd to get excited about.

The guys in charge will see to it that there is as little as possible exciting about watching pool on tv.

Oh and players you be sure and do your part too. Maintain no signs of excitement. Whenever you make a great shot just keep right on acting like that was a walk in the park and that you are still bored.

Pretty much don't learn anything from what any of the popular sports do that way pool can just keep on being our best kept secret.
Click to expand...

Thank you for this. I TOTALLY agree about making the 10 ball on the break. It should be a win!
 
Jerry Forsyth said:
Jay and I seem to disagree on everything that comes down the pike except perhaps the superiority of California Pinot Noir. He finds Asian girls to be the most attractive, I don't think they can compare to Americans. He likes fluke-em 9 and 10-Ball and I can't stand the luck factor in pro pool.

So we disagree on the new Ten Ball rules. I like them a lot. While many who observe the game just as closely as I do will say that luck does not often come into play on the pro level I seem to see it all the time, and it always comes up at critical moment that overly rewards the fluke. Watching two players fight to get to double-hill only to have one of them lose to the luck of a 9 ball falling on the break is just not right (IMO).

Grady Mathews has never allowed luck to factor into his tournaments. He has always had you spot the nine back up if it goes on the break and you always had to call the 9. And here is the deal: Only the pros (who should never need to rely on luck) need to play under these rules. Just as Grady has always altered the written rule set in his events, any tournament director who wants fluke-em rules can play their tournaments that way. The TD can make any rule changes they want to at the players meeting. The rules of 9-Ball have always said that the 1 ball is racked on the spot but we have seen it moved all over the place to remedy the tapped-in rack problems.

So, if you do not like the rules for your tournament, relax. Just change them.
Click to expand...

I agree to disagree. Love ya buddy! We can talk about this next time we are in the booth together. :)
 
Jerry Forsyth said:
Jay and I seem to disagree on everything that comes down the pike except perhaps the superiority of California Pinot Noir. He finds Asian girls to be the most attractive, I don't think they can compare to Americans. He likes fluke-em 9 and 10-Ball and I can't stand the luck factor in pro pool.

So we disagree on the new Ten Ball rules. I like them a lot. While many who observe the game just as closely as I do will say that luck does not often come into play on the pro level I seem to see it all the time, and it always comes up at critical moment that overly rewards the fluke. Watching two players fight to get to double-hill only to have one of them lose to the luck of a 9 ball falling on the break is just not right (IMO).

Grady Mathews has never allowed luck to factor into his tournaments. He has always had you spot the nine back up if it goes on the break and you always had to call the 9. And here is the deal: Only the pros (who should never need to rely on luck) need to play under these rules. Just as Grady has always altered the written rule set in his events, any tournament director who wants fluke-em rules can play their tournaments that way. The TD can make any rule changes they want to at the players meeting. The rules of 9-Ball have always said that the 1 ball is racked on the spot but we have seen it moved all over the place to remedy the tapped-in rack problems.

So, if you do not like the rules for your tournament, relax. Just change them.
Click to expand...
Sorry Jerry. I have to disagree with you here and somewhat agree with Jay...

...that pinays are the prettiest girls on earth. :D
 
MikeJanis said:
As a note: The WPA has a contact page.
It can be found here: http://www.wpapool.com/index.asp?content=contact

If you have a constructive idea about the rules please let them know what you think.

Based on the changes that were just currently made it seems they are listening to all ideas and taking them into consideration.

Who knows, maybe they are keeping a scorecard for ideas. If you think something needs changed I suggest you write the WPA a comprehensive letter describing what you feel needs changed and why.



Mj
Click to expand...

Thanks Mike. SENT!
 
I vote for...

the same rules as for Texas Express except that, after the break, the 10-ball must be a called shot... to eliminate shitting it in.

The spectator appeal of TE 9-ball is the fast pace and the fact that luck sometimes comes into play. The higher the level of play, the less luck comes into play. Nobody likes to have their opponent shit in the money ball... the pros likely despise it. Let's keep the spectator appeal in 10-ball.
 
When was the last time the WPA held a 10 ball tournament?
Or even a One Pocket tournament?

Why do they have 10 Ball rules and not One Pocket rules?
 
Personally, I have mixed feelings about the 10-ball on the break. OK, I lied... I hate it! :D

But I do see the value in it from a crowd pleasing standpoint. However, please note that in the other sports listed, the crowd pleasing things are a little different. For example, a home run takes a very good hit on the ball, so it is a skill shot, whereas the 10 on the break is mostly luck, and usually the result of a bad rack, ie., a gap right behind the 10 that caused it to shoot into a foot pocket.

Whether or not a slam dunk is a skill shot is debatable I suppose, but it doesn't really matter because it's only worth two points just like a regular field goal. What if a slam dunk were worth 10 points? :eek: A 10-ball on the break is worth an entire game, which is way too much for a luck shot that is not even run-of-the-mill luck... it's RIGGED luck most of the time. I don't mean intentionally rigged, but rigged nonetheless by a flaw (gap) in the rack.

If pool ever does draw large crowds, most of them will probably never even realize it, but I think it is absolutely horrible anytime a 9-ball or 10-ball shoots straight into a foot pocket. It boarders on scandalous that we don't fix it, IMO. Here's one possible reason why that could be a big problem later:

Say pool becomes really popular as a spectator sport in the USA. Lots of people start betting on it. Underdog plays champion with huge betting odds given. Underdog snaps the 10 on the break 6 times in a row into the same foot pocket beating champion. Turns out the table was racking funky and there was a consistent gap behind the 10-ball and now everyone cries foul play. Huge black eye on the sport.

So what's the solution? There's got to be a compromise. For us regular schmucks at Joe's Billiard Parlor, IMO, the solution is rack-your-own, 9/10 on the break doesn't count. The races are painfully short anyway, so I don't see how it's fair for a race to 4 to be 25% crapped away on the break shot because the table doesn't rack right.

For the pros, particularly TV matches, I really think we need to consider using a racking template to guarantee that the balls are all frozen. Then we can count it as a win without it being such a tainted victory. If the 10 goes on the break when it was totally frozen, it is fair enough for me.

When it goes in on what is essentially a trick-shot break due to a rigged rack, it really is a disgrace to the game, IMHO.

I started a thread about the rack template, if anyone is interested in commenting on whether or not it has the potential to push the sport in the right direction:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=100586
 
BMPAP 10-Ball rules are same with 9-Ball Texas Expess except for:

If the 10-Ball is pocketed during the break, when no collision from another ball has caused it to be pocketed, it is then spotted. Breaker continues his turn. We think that skillful breaking should be rewarded. What is considered a skillful break? A powerful break with cue ball control.
 
Luxury said:
For the viewer one of the most exciting things that can happen is the money ball on the break. Baseball has the home run, football has the kickoff return for a touchdown, basket ball has the slam dunk but lets not have anything for the pool crowd to get excited about.

The guys in charge will see to it that there is as little as possible exciting about watching pool on tv.

Oh and players you be sure and do your part too. Maintain no signs of excitement. Whenever you make a great shot just keep right on acting like that was a walk in the park and that you are still bored.

Pretty much don't learn anything from what any of the popular sports do that way pool can just keep on being our best kept secret.
Click to expand...

I just wanted to second Luxury's post. For some reason, as pool players, we are conditioned to feel guilty about getting a good roll or lucking in an unintended ball. When was the last time you saw a golfer apologize to his opponent for dropping a 40' put or dropping one in from 20 yards out? He wasn't trying to get that ball in the cup that shot, he was trying to get it close enough to make on his next shot and a perfect combination of skill and luck came together to get it in there. It?s usually followed by a fist pump or 2 and congratulations from his caddy. What's wrong with giving a whoop while jumping in the air after making a tough run out or pulling off a tough combination or even lucking in the money ball?

We all want to play a flawless match where luck it taken completely out of the equation, but we play a game where balls are colliding, bouncing, rolling and spinning, sometimes at high speed, luck will always play a part in any match.
 
jay helfert said:
Thank you for this. I TOTALLY agree about making the 10 ball on the break. It should be a win!
Click to expand...

10 ball on the break already is a WIN in WPA 10 ball Rules.....somebody somewhere on azb forums seems to have just plain invented the notion that it isn't and several others seem to have then jumped on board without reading the rules.

Furthermore Mike Janis has already explained this break rule clearly in this very thread:rolleyes:

Your objections will therefore have to rest on the call shot aspect of the game and no doubt there will be lots of varied opinions on that.

You're partially excused as guess you haven't had much sleep due to your sterling efforts in trying to help sort out everybody else's problems over the Arizona debacle:)
 
Last edited:
jay helfert said:
Sorry Mike, but who thinks of all this stuff. Let's have some more rules to clarify the existing ones. To me it's a joke.

There is NOTHING wrong with playing Ten Ball according to the same rules (Texas Express) that we used for 9-Ball for the last 20 years. Let the 10 ball count on the break. It's harder to make the 10 on the break than the 9 ever was. Forget about call shot. That will just confuse things. And as for that safety rule. NOT!

Of course, no one listens to me. Why should they? I might not agree with their nonsense. And they know it. They can take a good game and totally screw it up. Ten Ball is the perfect game for today's players, but by the time the WPA is done messing with the rules, they may as well be playing Straight Pool.
Click to expand...

I totally agree. I sent WPA a message stating the following reasons:

I am against the "new" 10 ball rules. There should never be an option of a called safety while pocketing a ball in any rotation type game. Also, the Call Pocket in rule 9.7 just make the rules more complicated. Yes, it takes out luck, but that is part of what makes 9 ball so popular. I am all for the current Texas Express rules used for 9 ball to apply to any rotation game.

The newest version of the rules allowing the opponent to accept/reject the shot is a step in the right direction. However I feel it is still not the right decision.

In the safety section 9.6, when the player may call safety and make a ball, this makes the safety too easy. Again, allowing the incoming player to reject the shot and hand it back to the original player is a step, but it makes the game more complicated and the rules more congested. Simpler is better.

I understand you are trying to take the "luck factor" out of the game by making it call pocket. However, that luck applies to both players at the table. It definitely is a crowd pleaser, and since both players have the opportunity to take advantage of it, it is not a detriment to the game. Any lucky shot could go either way for either player.

Lets keep the simple and exciting and remove these rules so 10 ball can be as exciting as a new format as 9 ball used to be.
 
bandido said:
BMPAP 10-Ball rules are same with 9-Ball Texas Expess except for:

If the 10-Ball is pocketed during the break, when no collision from another ball has caused it to be pocketed, it is then spotted. Breaker continues his turn. We think that skillful breaking should be rewarded. What is considered a skillful break? A powerful break with cue ball control.
Click to expand...

No disrespect intended Edwin but if that is the actual wording it is appalling and seems nailed on guaranteed to set the scene for potential arguments.

Are you saying that if the 10 is potted on the break shot "with" a collision the breaker wins the frame......and if it's potted on the break "without" a collison the 10 is spotted? That's what it seems to say if you've reproduced it word for word.

Even if that is actually what is meant (which is doubtful as it's not clear how a pot of the 10 on the break after a collision can be considered more skilful than a pot without a collision) the reality is that without slow motion replays it is unrealistic to expect the referee, never mind the players in cases when there is no referee, to definitively know whether the 10 has for example perhaps taken a very thin glance off one or more balls, especially in the early stages of the split of the balls in the rack.

...........and that's without getting into the more nitty possible argument in which some might say it is in any case physically impossible for a ball lodged in the 10 ball position in the rack to move anywhere else on the table without "colliding" with another ball.

I'm guessing your BMPAP rule is actually the opposite of what you've posted and that the intention of your rule is to reward the breaker by a win of the frame if he pots the 10 without any lucky collision on its way to a pocket and to say that respotting of the 10 must take place if it has taken a lucky collision on its way into the pocket. If this is the spirit of your rule the same "collison" problems highlighted above might arise of course and frankly it seems in that respect to be a rule which invites potential trouble.
 
Last edited:
M HOUSE said:
...

Good thing these guys aren't in charge of golf. If you made a hole-in-one you might have to re-tee and play it over.
Click to expand...

Well you have to or at least take a stroke if you put in in the wrong hole.
 
cigardave said:
I vote for...

the same rules as for Texas Express except that, after the break, the 10-ball must be a called shot... to eliminate shitting it in.

The spectator appeal of TE 9-ball is the fast pace and the fact that luck sometimes comes into play. The higher the level of play, the less luck comes into play. Nobody likes to have their opponent shit in the money ball... the pros likely despise it. Let's keep the spectator appeal in 10-ball.
Click to expand...
Hate to be a nay-sayer, but what spectator appeal. The only spectators are usually the other participants in the tournament or friends of the players. The way I figure it increasing the skill component may help draw people.
 
You can't call more than one ball in a shot. Therefore if faced with a shot where 2 or more balls might be made you have to call the one you think has the best chance of going, which is part of the skill of playing a call-shot game.

Question - If you call and make a ball other than the 10 and also make the 10 in the same shot do you win under these rules like in 9 Ball? Or would you have to call the 10 for it to count?
 
My new Ten Ball rules. Tell me if you like them.

Rule #1. You can win if you make the ten ball on the break, unless one of the following things happen. If the ten contacts any ball before hitting a cushion first it does not count. If the ten strikes two or more balls on the way to the pocket it does not count. If the ten goes into any one of the top four pockets without hitting another ball it does not count. Other than these few exceptions the ten counts on the break. Oh, and one more thing. If the ten jumps off the table, it stays there until your turn is over. Too frickin' bad!

Rule #2. You must call all balls, including what cushions they will strike and any balls they will contact on the way to the pocket. Failure to do so is loss of game. Do it twice and you're outa there! Gone, kapeche, done, finished!

Rule #3. You may play a safety at any time on any ball. You just call SAFE and hit any ball you like. Your opponent then has the option to take ball in hand or bonk you on the head with his cue. If you call safe twice in a row, he can do both!

Rule #4. You may not play a billiard or a combination without the permission of the referee and a note from your mother.

Rule #5. When racking the balls, try to be quiet, so as not to wake any sleeping spectators.

Rule #6. Between matches all players must sit together holding hands and humming Christmas carols. Except during Thanksgiving when they can sing aloud at the top of their lungs. No longer will pool tournaments be dull affairs. They will now be songfests, with ample helpings of beer and ale.
 
jay helfert said:
My new Ten Ball rules. Tell me if you like them.

Rule #1. You can win if you make the ten ball on the break, unless one of the following things happen. If the ten contacts any ball before hitting a cushion first it does not count. If the ten strikes two or more balls on the way to the pocket it does not count. If the ten goes into any one of the top four pockets without hitting another ball it does not count. Other than these few exceptions the ten counts on the break. Oh, and one more thing. If the ten jumps off the table, it stays there until your turn is over. Too frickin' bad!

Rule #2. You must call all balls, including what cushions they will strike and any balls they will contact on the way to the pocket. Failure to do so is loss of game. Do it twice and you're outa there! Gone, kapeche, done, finished!

Rule #3. You may play a safety at any time on any ball. You just call SAFE and hit any ball you like. Your opponent then has the option to take ball in hand or bonk you on the head with his cue. If you call safe twice in a row, he can do both!

Rule #4. You may not play a billiard or a combination without the permission of the referee and a note from your mother.

Rule #5. When racking the balls, try to be quiet, so as not to wake any sleeping spectators.

Rule #6. Between matches all players must sit together holding hands and humming Christmas carols. Except during Thanksgiving when they can sing aloud at the top of their lungs. No longer will pool tournaments be dull affairs. They will now be songfests, with ample helpings of beer and ale.
Click to expand...

I like it. Let's not forget the non-interference rule.

#7 There is no non-interference. You are allowed and expected to talk to, bump, knock over, knock out your opponent while they are at the table shooting. Failure to do so is loss of game.
 
Best rules ever. :D

soulcatcher said:
I like it. Let's not forget the non-interference rule.

#7 There is no non-interference. You are allowed and expected to talk to, bump, knock over, knock out your opponent while they are at the table shooting. Failure to do so is loss of game.
Click to expand...

This one is good too... now when the 10-ball is heading towards a pocket on the break, the opponent can intercept it. DE-FENSE DE-FENSE! :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top