WPA Revises World 10-Ball Rules !

[memikey]

I just wanted to second Luxury's post. For some reason, as pool players, we are conditioned to feel guilty about getting a good roll or lucking in an unintended ball. When was the last time you saw a golfer apologize to his opponent for dropping a 40' put or dropping one in from 20 yards out? He wasn't trying to get that ball in the cup that shot, he was trying to get it close enough to make on his next shot and a perfect combination of skill and luck came together to get it in there. It?s usually followed by a fist pump or 2 and congratulations from his caddy. What's wrong with giving a whoop while jumping in the air after making a tough run out or pulling off a tough combination or even lucking in the money ball?

We all want to play a flawless match where luck it taken completely out of the equation, but we play a game where balls are colliding, bouncing, rolling and spinning, sometimes at high speed, luck will always play a part in any match.

1. You probably haven't chosen a very good basis of comparison re the luck element. There's a whole lot bigger a percentage of luck involved in a professional pool player making the 9 on the break from a non-rigged, fair, tight rack than there is in a professional golfer holing a 40 foot putt.

2. To answer your 'when was the last time' question I've seen lots of golfers and even played with lots of golfers, tour pro/club pro and amateur, who apologise to their opponent for a genuinely lucky shot or at the very least have the decency to look very sheepish and embarassed about it, in fact it's a perfectly normal thing to do in golf. It would be unusual for them not to apologise or look embarassed. I've also seen many admit their lucky shots to television or newspaper interviewers. However what you might see as a lucky shot is obviously not quite what a top golfer sees as a lucky shot and in that respect I'd tend to side with them on what I've seen so far regarding your definition of a lucky golf shot.

3. If televised pool players were playing for the same amount of prize money and in front of the same sized audiences as televised golfers it's a fair bet that you'd see a lot more fist pumping in televised pool

4. Luxury's post, which you were seconding at least part of, seemed to include the erroneous assumption that 10 on the break in WPA Rules doesn't win the frame....but it does.

 

[Masayoshi]

You can't call more than one ball in a shot. Therefore if faced with a shot where 2 or more balls might be made you have to call the one you think has the best chance of going, which is part of the skill of playing a call-shot game.

Question - If you call and make a ball other than the 10 and also make the 10 in the same shot do you win under these rules like in 9 Ball? Or would you have to call the 10 for it to count?

I was also wondering this.

Maybe there should be a way to call more than 1 ball in a shot? Call shot is meant to lessen the luck factor. if you call a ball and a pocket, its an intended shot therefore (arguably) not luck. so logically if you call more than one ball and more than one pocket there should be no problems...in fact, if you make the rules so that you can only call 1 ball at time, you take a significant portion of shot knowledge away from the game, this will no doubt decrease the skill/luck ratio and be counter productive to the implementation of the call shot rule. Its much more simple and logical to just not have call pocket. how often do pros shit in balls anyways? Im sure at that level, more matches are won through 2 way shots rather than lucked in balls.

 

[memikey]

You forgot the equipment section Jay which includes a compulsory minimum of at least one sewed up rip in the cloth and no chalking of the cue allowed after the break shot

 

[soulcatcher]

You can't call more than one ball in a shot. Therefore if faced with a shot where 2 or more balls might be made you have to call the one you think has the best chance of going, which is part of the skill of playing a call-shot game.

Question - If you call and make a ball other than the 10 and also make the 10 in the same shot do you win under these rules like in 9 Ball? Or would you have to call the 10 for it to count?

When you are playing call pocket, any ball other than the money ball (10 in this case) stays down. But the money ball would be spotted unless it is called. Shooting the 4, and calling the 4, make the 4 and the 10, the 10 gets spotted.

 

[unknownpro]

I was also wondering this.

Maybe there should be a way to call more than 1 ball in a shot? Call shot is meant to lessen the luck factor. if you call a ball and a pocket, its an intended shot therefore (arguably) not luck. so logically if you call more than one ball and more than one pocket there should be no problems...in fact, if you make the rules so that you can only call 1 ball at time, you take a significant portion of shot knowledge away from the game, this will no doubt decrease the skill/luck ratio and be counter productive to the implementation of the call shot rule. Its much more simple and logical to just not have call pocket. how often do pros shit in balls anyways? Im sure at that level, more matches are won through 2 way shots rather than lucked in balls.

The PCA (Professional Cuesports Association) allowed you to call two balls in one shot, once (iirc) per game and keep shooting if one of the called balls fell. That was one "compromise" in the rules.

 

[unknownpro]

Flaw in the rules???

Unless I am missing something, there is a major flaw in these rules, just like the old PCA rules. Players will nearly always call a ball and a pocket when they are playing safe. They will call the pocket nearest wherever they are shooting for the ball most likely to go in that pocket in case they screw up and crap it in. This is very, very bad for the game. It makes the players look foolish and/or unskilled. The exact opposite of call shot's intended effect.

It's an American game. Who said the WPA could make the damn rules anyway? Withdraw from the UN and the WPA. I think race to 5 two out of 3 set single elimination world championships at nine ball their first "great" contribution. Who needs the WPA? It will be easier for American players to adjust for one world championship tournament than to use call shot here.

 

[bandido]

No disrespect intended Edwin but if that is the actual wording it is appalling and seems nailed on guaranteed to set the scene for potential arguments.

Are you saying that if the 10 is potted on the break shot "with" a collision the breaker wins the frame......and if it's potted on the break "without" a collison the 10 is spotted? That's what it seems to say if you've reproduced it word for word.

Even if that is actually what is meant (which is doubtful as it's not clear how a pot of the 10 on the break after a collision can be considered more skilful than a pot without a collision) the reality is that without slow motion replays it is unrealistic to expect the referee, never mind the players in cases when there is no referee, to definitively know whether the 10 has for example perhaps taken a very thin glance off one or more balls, especially in the early stages of the split of the balls in the rack.

...........and that's without getting into the more nitty possible argument in which some might say it is in any case physically impossible for a ball lodged in the 10 ball position in the rack to move anywhere else on the table without "colliding" with another ball.

I'm guessing your BMPAP rule is actually the opposite of what you've posted and that the intention of your rule is to reward the breaker by a win of the frame if he pots the 10 without any lucky collision on its way to a pocket and to say that respotting of the 10 must take place if it has taken a lucky collision on its way into the pocket. If this is the spirit of your rule the same "collison" problems highlighted above might arise of course and frankly it seems in that respect to be a rule which invites potential trouble.

The rule wasn't made up by some guy in an office or a spectator who just made it up after hearing all the arguments during 10-Ball matches here. That rule is actually what has been agreed upon by those who play the game here.

That new WPA 10-Ball rules were put together when a franchise for the World 10-Ball Championship was awarded and those WPA rules were even modified before the PPT Mandaluyong Mayor's Cup here. Even Johnny Archer complained about it specially about the safety rule where the shooter can call a safe and pocket the OB only for the incoming player to be able to pass the shot back. Why penalize a player for a very skillfully executed safety shot was Johnny's question then.

We don't like those new WPA rules but most importantly our players don't like them. Plus, I've never seen nor heard of an argument ensueing for a spotted straight-in-on-the-break 10 ball rule that we play by.

 

[Marvel]

Accepting the 10 on the break is not good IMHO, as it makes the racking more difficult.

If the rack is tapped, then it's ok, as the 10 hardly ever moves from there, but if the rack is not tapped, the problem occurs.
Who is racking for who? If a player racks for himself, he'll leave a gap behind the 10, so the 10 goes in. If a player racks for his opponent, he'll leave couple of gaps somewhere else, so the rack wont be good.

Rack your own and spot the 10 (or 9 as in 9-ball), would be the right rule. All pros I've talked to, agree with that.

For example at 06 US-Opens, when players were racking for them selves, there were so many 9-balls on the break, many times in a row, that it made you throw up. And many so called 'distinguished' players did that, wont tell names but the nationality was american..

And just watch the games from the 07 Predator 10-ball WC as SVB wins it. The 10-ball is going in all the time. They are spotting it, which is good, and it's grazy that now it'll be accepted again..

 

[Cuebacca]

well said

Accepting the 10 on the break is not good IMHO, as it makes the racking more difficult.

If the rack is tapped, then it's ok, as the 10 hardly ever moves from there, but if the rack is not tapped, the problem occurs.
Who is racking for who? If a player racks for himself, he'll leave a gap behind the 10, so the 10 goes in. If a player racks for his opponent, he'll leave couple of gaps somewhere else, so the rack wont be good.

Rack your own and spot the 10 (or 9 as in 9-ball), would be the right rule. All pros I've talked to, agree with that.

For example at 06 US-Opens, when players were racking for them selves, there were so many 9-balls on the break, many times in a row, that it made you throw up. And many so called 'distinguished' players did that, wont tell names but the nationality was american..

And just watch the games from the 07 Predator 10-ball WC as SVB wins it. The 10-ball is going in all the time. They are spotting it, which is good, and it's grazy that now it'll be accepted again..

This post is the nutz, IMO.

 

[bandido]

Just recieved an SMS message from the World 10-Ball Championship franchise holder www.rayasport.com boasting of the acceptance of their recommendation to the WPA. Here's the message:

GOOD NEWS!!!
GOOD NEWS!!!
The World Pool Billiards Association has officially adopted (?) the Philippine ( Raya Sports not the Philippines) recommendations for revisions in Ten Ball rules. The changes cover the rules on safety play and wrongfully pocketed balls. They arose from our experience in the Mandaluyong Mayor's Cup. Johnny Archer, Edgar "I declare myself a player"Acaba, Thorsten Hohmann, Marlon Manalo, and others contributed to shaping the revised rules. Visit Raya website for full details: www.rayasports.com
30/05/08 09:59


So there's the originator, an Event Promoter that is just addressing the players complaints they had (on the original rules that also originated from them?) in their recent tournament. That's the problem when it's non-players making the rules! LOL!!!

 

[alstl]

Sorry Mike, but who thinks of all this stuff. Let's have some more rules to clarify the existing ones. To me it's a joke.

There is NOTHING wrong with playing Ten Ball according to the same rules (Texas Express) that we used for 9-Ball for the last 20 years. Let the 10 ball count on the break. It's harder to make the 10 on the break than the 9 ever was. Forget about call shot. That will just confuse things. And as for that safety rule. NOT!

Of course, no one listens to me. Why should they? I might not agree with their nonsense. And they know it. They can take a good game and totally screw it up. Ten Ball is the perfect game for today's players, but by the time the WPA is done messing with the rules, they may as well be playing Straight Pool.

Easy explanation, 10 ball was getting too popular. Time to screw around with the rules. Call shot is just plain goofy.

 

[sjm]

For the viewer one of the most exciting things that can happen is the money ball on the break. Baseball has the home run, football has the kickoff return for a touchdown, basket ball has the slam dunk but lets not have anything for the pool crowd to get excited about.

The guys in charge will see to it that there is as little as possible exciting about watching pool on tv.

Oh and players you be sure and do your part too. Maintain no signs of excitement. Whenever you make a great shot just keep right on acting like that was a walk in the park and that you are still bored.

Pretty much don't learn anything from what any of the popular sports do that way pool can just keep on being our best kept secret.

This is the best post in this thread.

From a fan standpoint, nothing is more electrifying than the money ball "on the snap." As usual, what's good for the fans loses out to what the players want for themselves. This logic is just like the thinking surrounding the shot clock, the use of which some pros think violates their constitutional rights. From a fan standpoint, match length needs to be managed. I've walked out several times on a no-shot-clock tournament before the final because the snail-paced tournament took forever and a day. Even pro golf, a sport pool players openly worship, penalizes players for slow play!

As long as pool continues to ignore what is good for the fans in favor of what the players want, the competitive pool product will be inferior to what it could be. Of course, players and tournament organizers making these decisions will continue to scratch their heads wondering why fans don't flock to see their events.

 

[MikeJanis]

This is the best post in this thread.

From a fan standpoint, nothing is more electrifying than the money ball "on the snap." As usual, what's good for the fans loses out to what the players want for themselves.

I'm just curios. WHAT RULES ARE YOU READING ?

The WPA Ten Ball Rules Clearly state that the 10-ball on the break is a win.

From: the 1st paragraph of the WPA 10-Ball Rules founf here: http://www.wpapool.com/index.asp?content=rules_10ball

The player legally pocketing the ten ball wins the rack, and this can be achieved on the break shot without calling a ball.


Mj

 

[Fixer]

Nice! Now it is only the big tournaments that go their own way then. (Except the wpc 10-ball).

 

[Vinnie]

The PCA (Professional Cuesports Association) allowed you to call two balls in one shot, once (iirc) per game and keep shooting if one of the called balls fell. That was one "compromise" in the rules.

If you are allowed to call more than one ball on a shot, then I think that you should have to make ALL the balls you called or lose your turn. Otherwise people would just call several balls and it would still be luck.

 

[sjm]

I'm just curios. WHAT RULES ARE YOU READING ?

The WPA Ten Ball Rules Clearly state that the 10-ball on the break is a win.

From: the 1st paragraph of the WPA 10-Ball Rules founf here: http://www.wpapool.com/index.asp?content=rules_10ball

The player legally pocketing the ten ball wins the rack, and this can be achieved on the break shot without calling a ball.


Mj

With apologies, I stand corrected.

 

[jay helfert]

This is the best post in this thread.

From a fan standpoint, nothing is more electrifying than the money ball "on the snap." As usual, what's good for the fans loses out to what the players want for themselves. This logic is just like the thinking surrounding the shot clock, the use of which some pros think violates their constitutional rights. From a fan standpoint, match length needs to be managed. I've walked out several times on a no-shot-clock tournament before the final because the snail-paced tournament took forever and a day. Even pro golf, a sport pool players openly worship, penalizes players for slow play!

As long as pool continues to ignore what is good for the fans in favor of what the players want, the competitive pool product will be inferior to what it could be. Of course, players and tournament organizers making these decisions will continue to scratch their heads wondering why fans don't flock to see their events.

Tap Tap Tap. I'm glad they have revised the stupid rule where the Ten counted in only the bottom four pockets.

 

[unknownpro]

Does anybody have any comment on my previous post about safety play? If there is no advantage to "calling" safe, players simply WILL NOT call safe except when there is no possibility of pocketing a ball. Any time there is a chance a ball could accidentally be made they will call that ball. The reason being it is always better to have the next shot than to have your opponent get the option to shoot.

This DID happen in the PCA. It WILL happen again with these rules. And it does look horribly stupid to spectators or a TV audience.

 

[deerhunter]

rules for TV

I have thought about this for years and I think the reason pool is not great on TV is because it is slow and boring. What is needed is to speed up the game and make it exciting. 9 ball is the most exciting game to watch and with a few rule changes it would be great for TV.

Rules:
1 - Flip coin or lag for opening break
2 - Winner breaks
3 - 1 push allowed first shot after break
4 - Ball in hand on all misses
5 - 30 second shot clock
6 ? NO CALL SHOTS, this is just stupid

Fast and furious, that is how to make pool popular. Could you imagine the great shot making you would see? How would you like to see someone run 11 racks? Safeties and tight pocket may be good for gambling, but not TV.

Gambling:
At casinos they could set up a betting window like horse racing. The more people bet on one player the odds go down. That way, players could not dump the house.

 

[watchez]

Gambling:
At casinos they could set up a betting window like horse racing. The more people bet on one player the odds go down. That way, players could not dump the house.

Uhhhh, they could still dump the house. Not EVERY PERSON placing a bet is in on the dump. Your analogy/plan is way off.

The house doesn't always just break even, taking a %. Ask Vegas how they did in last years Super Bowl.

I think you need to think about this for a few more years.

p.s. They also have dumping in horse racing.