WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[dr_dave]

ball wear and weight effects

Also, the other things i wanted to ask are, do you have some sort of index for the elasticity of the polymer used in the billiard balls? Their bounciness?

Yes. The index is called the "coefficient of restitution" (COR).

The elasticity of centennials, vs aramith pros, vs the "pea" balls, or even ivory balls and how those materials transfer energy and bounce off of each other?

I don't have data comparing the CORs of different brands of balls; however, the following resource page explains and illustrates what effects different CORs have on different types of shots:

ball inelasticity (COR) effects​

Maybe info on some other factors such as switching out the cueball that comes with the set that is the same weight, and replacing it with a lighter ball, and how that affects shots?

Cause it could be that some of the phenomena observed by pool players all over the world, is a result of something simple, like cueball wear, and the subsequent loss of cueball weight when striking an object ball that is not out of round, and heavier.

FYI, wear, size, and weight effects are covered in detail (including video demonstrations) here:

ball weight and wear effects​

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

...Cause it could be that some of the phenomena observed by pool players all over the world, is a result of something simple, like cueball wear, and the subsequent loss of cueball weight when striking an object ball that is not out of round, and heavier.
Maybe combining this with the "elasticity" factor of polymers, might help explain things better, because the data used in all your proofs, while valid, would have to be adjusted to compensate for those new factors.

That would be interesting information if you have it as certain types of balls, seem to feel "bouncier" vs other sets of balls. I am wondering how that and weight difference, would effect a lot of these topics and the physics equations that go along with them.

I do take all of these things into consideration where appropriate. For example, in my draw shot cue elevation effects analysis, I take into account the inefficiency of the tip, the friction between the ball and cloth, and the coefficient of restitution (COR) between the CB and table slate (i.e., the table bounciness). All of these real-world effects are definitely important and they do impact the results and conclusions of the analysis.

Regards,
Dave

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Thank you for all of this info.
I will go over it later when I have the time.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

DeadStick:
...imagine you have a horizontal rod that is attached to a stationary pivot point in its center, and your goal is to spin it around that pivot point as fast as possible with a single "hit". If you hit it out at one of the ends, you will have more leverage and the hit will be "easier", but the resultant spin speed at the end points will be no greater than the speed of your hit. Alternatively,if you hit it close to the pivot point, the hit will be "harder" (as you don't have as much leverage there), but *if* you have the power to get through it with a good hit there, the speed at the end will be multiplied by the distance between your hit and the end.

This all depends on the rod being fixed in place at the center pivot. A cue ball moves when you hit it, creating both speed and spin. Speed increases as you hit closer to center - spin increases as you hit farther from center.

pj
chgo

 

[DeadStick]

This all depends on the rod being fixed in place at the center pivot. A cue ball moves when you hit it, creating both speed and spin. Speed increases as you hit closer to center - spin increases as you hit farther from center.

Very good point, Patrick, thank you.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
A cue ball moves when you hit it, creating both speed and spin. Speed increases as you hit closer to center - spin increases as you hit farther from center.

DeadStick:
Very good point, Patrick, thank you.

Related stuff: The ratio of spin to speed is determined by how far from center the CB is struck. It isn't the same as RPMs (revolutions per minute), which is determined by how hard the CB is struck. Spin-speed ratio, not RPMs, determines the effectiveness of most kinds of spin.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

we've went full circle - anyone think the wrists add anything yet???

We got a bit off topic so here's my original post for this thread. Let's stick to the wrist/hand/fingers as related to the pool stroke.

There appear to be three different techniques for the wrist to assist the pocket billiards stroke. The first one is the wrists don't do much at all, the second is they cock up as you hit the cue ball and finish the stroke and the other is the wrists uncock down as the cue ball is struck and the follow through is completed.

The way I play is definitely with the wrists cocking down as I contact the cue ball. I have been committed to this technique the last couple of days and it's amazing the results. The thing about my technique is I can pre cock my wrists very precisely and that was how I consistently produce powerful stoke shots with such accuracy. This, ironically is what I've been struggling with the most. I seemed to have lost my "power source" that effortlessly produced pin point accuracy when striking the cue ball.

Many of you will not benefit from this information (because the way you use your wrists work fine for you), and others will benefit immensely when you're still searching to improve your stroke and accuracy.

I personally found a missing part to my "personal puzzle" and I'm surprised I didn't "real eyes" how important this technique was for me. Sometimes the simplest answers complete the most complex problems {for myself}.

For some reason my "reasonable" mind says "use outside english", however a "Touch of Inside" produces best results, and my mind says "don't use the wrists", however uncocking my wrists like I'm using a hammer is most effective, and my mind says "root against my opponent" when pulling for my opponent works best. The key to life seems to be making myself do {at times} what I least "naturally" want to do. As I get "more experienced" I see that unfolding in many areas.

The Moral of the story? "Reasonable" thoughts and techniques can often be the wrong thoughts and techniques to reach the highest levels. To separate yourself you must be "Unreasonable" at times. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[One Pocket John]

Happy to see you back CJ.

When you get a chance can you try to explain where Pinning the cue ball came from.....like history stuff.

I have been working with pinning for the last couple of days, its such a suttle movement that produces such positive results.

Thanks

John

 

[ENGLISH!]

I am a new guy that started playing pool only a couple of years ago. I don't understand a lot of technical "pool" stuff that is being discussed here, but everything that I tried from whatever CJ Wiley offered to try, worked for me and worked great....
Yesterday after reading how to hit the ball with the top of the cue, I went to a pool room and tried it... Then I started practicing my favorite practice shot - long straight in stop shot where the ob is in the middle of the table and the cb is right in the middle of the corner pocket, just far enough from falling in.... Yesterday I made 87 in a row without missing, until I had to leave. And I knew that if I stayed that number would be way passed 100- that's how confident I was.
So, obviously, the stuff that CJ is talking about works!!!

Yesterday I had a similiar shot. But... about 1/2 of the pocket was blocked by the 8 ball, my next ball for the win if I could pocket the one(1) ball being 'blocked'. The 8 ball was about 2.5 diamonds from the pocket & the one(1) ball was about 3 diamonds from the pocket, with the cue ball in the jaws of the corner pocket diagonally across. I set up to shoot the shot & then I remembered your 87 in an a row with the top of the tip along with CJ's touch of inside. I adjusted & 'blasted' the ball into the appropriate portion of the pocket & followed it up by shooting the 8 in for the win. I agree with you. The techniques work!

Thank you for the inspiration madmiller & to you too CJ for inspiring madmiller.

Regards,

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

Happy to see you back CJ.

When you get a chance can you try to explain where Pinning the cue ball came from.....like history stuff.

I have been working with pinning for the last couple of days, its such a suttle movement that produces such positive results.

Thanks

John

My opinion on this pinning the ball technique is this:

It will keep your stroke/mechanics very similar/consistent for all shots.
It will also keep you very close to center cue ball for shots using English or not, using the top and sides of the tip.
It will make for better cue ball control because you must be more precise as to where you hit the cue ball.

added after i was thinking about what i posted here now: CJ you sure its not the bottom of the tip you have to use when hitting follow at center ball? lol it kind of makes sense if your splitting the tip up, top,bottom left and right side? lol

 

[CJ Wiley]

The true incentive is to develop a sure fire way of hitting the cue ball accurately

My opinion on this pinning the ball technique is this:

It will keep your stroke/mechanics very similar/consistent for all shots.
It will also keep you very close to center cue ball for shots using English or not, using the top and sides of the tip.
It will make for better cue ball control because you must be more precise as to where you hit the cue ball.

Yes, "Pay Up Sucker" these are solid, accurate points about "Pinning".

It's easy to say "hit the cue ball more precisely", however, what does that mean specifically and why is it so important? The "Pinning Phenomenon" is the best way I've ever heard of to answer these questions and actually get results that raise your level of play {and enjoyment}.

The Cue Ball is the Primary Target. I believe this simple fact is over looked and often over shadowed by the desire to hit the object ball in a precise manner. The object ball, however, is the secondary target and can only be hit accurately as "a result, not an incentive".

The true incentive is to develop a sure fire way of hitting the cue ball accurately and that's what my techniques are designed to achieve.

There are other ways to achieve the type of results I do, and I'm not able to explain them. What I can do is explain how I do these techniques and if they interest you, try them. If not, just put them on the shelf and let them "ripen with age", who knows, someday they may be right for you.

Remember, "an amateur designs a game that "can" do it right, and a professional designs a game that "can't" do it wrong". - CJ Wiley

 

[One Pocket John]

Yes, "Pay Up Sucker" these are solid, accurate points about "Pinning".

It's easy to say "hit the cue ball more precisely", however, what does that mean specifically and why is it so important? The "Pinning Phenomenon" is the best way I've ever heard of to answer these questions and actually get results that raise your level of play {and enjoyment}.

The Cue Ball is the Primary Target. I believe this simple fact is over looked and often over shadowed by the desire to hit the object ball in a precise manner. The object ball, however, is the secondary target and can only be hit accurately as "a result, not an incentive".

The true incentive is to develop a sure fire way of hitting the cue ball accurately and that's what my techniques are designed to achieve.

There are other ways to achieve the type of results I do, and I'm not able to explain them. What I can do is explain how I do these techniques and if they interest you, try them. If not, just put them on the shelf and let them "ripen with age", who knows, someday they may be right for you.

Remember, "an amateur designs a game that "can" do it right, and a professional designs a game that "can't" do it wrong". - CJ Wiley

Thanks Pay Up and CJ.

In my years of playing I have never really paid attention to what part of the tip, be it top, bottom or sides to have strike the cue ball.

Using the pinning method to strike the cue ball really makes you focus on the part of the tip you are using.

Later.......back to the table

John

 

[CJ Wiley]

When you start doing this correctly you will Hear the difference in your shots.

Thanks Pay Up and CJ.

In my years of playing I have never really paid attention to what part of the tip, be it top, bottom or sides to have strike the cue ball.

Using the pinning method to strike the cue ball really makes you focus on the part of the tip you are using.

Later.......back to the table

John

When you start doing this correctly you will Hear the difference in your contact. Your shots will start to have a higher pitched sound and the reaction will have more "character" or response.

Have you ever noticed when the Champion players hit a draw shot it doesn't seem like they hit it very hard, but the english seems extreme (relatively speaking)? This is because the are "Pinning" the ball and hitting it with the edge of the tip.

This goes for power follow shots too (specialty shot section), except they are using the bottom of the tip. The majority of the game however, is played with the top half of the tip and the tip is also used to "double check" your angles too.

Try putting the left edge of the tip on the left edge of the object ball (on a half ball hit) and see what happens, or on a thin cut put the right edge of the tip on the left edge of the object ball.

There's so many things you can do when you start thinking of the top edge contacting the cue ball. We've just scratched the surface, and this "dimension" of the Game isn't possible using the center of the tip, or hitting the center of the cue ball. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

I'll post the details in the next 3 days.

Cj,

First of all thank you for all the help and time you have given on this forum.

Second, When will your new DVD be avilable for purchase, and where can I purchase it ?

Thank you again,

You're certainly welcome. We've in the process of getting it ready now. I'll post the details in the next 3 days.

 

[Mikjary]

...or on a thin cut put the right edge of the tip on the left edge of the object ball. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Don't give this one up, CJ! J/K I use this technique to cut the paint off of balls 9 feet away. Great scare shot to freak your opponent and easy to do. :grin:

Best,
Mike

 

[One Pocket John]

When you start doing this correctly you will Hear the difference in your contact. Your shots will start to have a higher pitched sound and the reaction will have more "character" or response.
Have you ever noticed when the Champion players hit a draw shot it doesn't seem like they hit it very hard, but the english seems extreme (relatively speaking)? This is because the are "Pinning" the ball and hitting it with the edge of the tip.

This goes for power follow shots too (specialty shot section), except they are using the bottom of the tip. The majority of the game however, is played with the top half of the tip and the tip is also used to "double check" your angles too.

Try putting the left edge of the tip on the left edge of the object ball (on a half ball hit) and see what happens, or on a thin cut put the right edge of the tip on the left edge of the object ball.

There's so many things you can do when you start thinking of the top edge contacting the cue ball. We've just scratched the surface, and this "dimension" of the Game isn't possible using the center of the tip, or hitting the center of the cue ball. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Funny you mention this. Thats exactly what I was hearing and feeling.

I have always been told to put a tip of this or a tip of that on the cue ball. No one has ever said, yeah just use a tip of high right and by the way make sure you are using the left side of the tip to do it.

Dont get me wrong, I know the left side of the tip is hitting the cue ball but I just have not really focused on it. Its a game changer for sure.

Thanks again and waiting for the new DVD.

Man, I should have bought a sword.:smile:

John

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

Originally Posted by CJ Wiley
...or on a thin cut put the right edge of the tip on the left edge of the object ball. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Don't give this one up, CJ! J/K I use this technique to cut the paint off of balls 9 feet away. Great scare shot to freak your opponent and easy to do. :grin:

Best,
Mike

This is a form of CTE, correct? outside of the tip to the inside edge of the ob. Adjust alignment and the inside edge of the cb is aligned close to the outside edge of the ob,correct? I have used this also and it is the nuts for thin cuts.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Originally Posted by CJ Wiley
...or on a thin cut put the right edge of the tip on the left edge of the object ball. 'The Game is the Teacher'




This is a form of CTE, correct? outside of the tip to the inside edge of the ob. Adjust alignment and the inside edge of the cb is aligned close to the outside edge of the ob,correct? I have used this also and it is the nuts for thin cuts.

I've only dabbled with CTE but that sounds like a huge 'pivot'. Is it dependent on a certain bridge length or CB/OB distance seperation?

Thanks in advance,

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

I've only dabbled with CTE but that sounds like a huge 'pivot'. Is it dependent on a certain bridge length or CB/OB distance seperation?

Thanks in advance,

well, your initial alignment would a half tip pivot from the inside side of the vertical axis of the cur ball. Its not really a big pivot on the cue ball but it will be on the object ball because you are swinging from the inside edge to the outside edge on the object ball. If you learn this technique it is the nuts for thin cuts and it take the stress/anxiety out of the shot

I also never pay attention to my bridge length or cb/ob distance, consciously anyway

 

[ENGLISH!]

well, your initial alignment would a half tip pivot from the inside side of the vertical axis of the cur ball. Its not really a big pivot on the cue ball but it will be on the object ball because you are swinging from the inside edge to the outside edge on the object ball.

So... cutting left, I would align center of cue ball to outside right edge of the OB visually, come down with the cue aligned with the right side of the tip to the left edge of the OB & pivot til the right side of the tip to the right edge of the OB & 'fire' away. Is that correct?