WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

Patrick Johnson said:
The "magic" in a pro's stroke is consistent accuracy at all speeds, which allows him to play farther from the CB's center and get more action. We mortals try to hit farther from center, but being inconsistent we miscue too often trying to do that, so we subconsciously steer our tips back to safer territory - "settling for" less CB action.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I'll have to study my accuracy more closely. Mark Wilson measured me at less than 1mm but those strokes were for only a couple speeds. I don't remember measuring at extreme speeds.

That being said I've noticed differences of applied spins at the same speeds with a wristy stroke vs not. or loose grip vs firm or this or that.

I assure you that I'm getting out closer to the margins than most being almost 100% 3Cushion player who also loves experimenting with crazy ridiculous shots.

And for Tony in MD I remember one shot many years ago I made after a tournament session was over and after a couple cocktails. The shot haunts me still. I was just freewheeling, and trying to make the ball spin. I have no idea how I did what I did. Looked like a shot you'd see on YouTube. Guess that one time everything was 110% correct.
 
3kushn said:
I'll have to study my accuracy more closely. Mark Wilson measured me at less than 1mm but those strokes were for only a couple speeds. I don't remember measuring at extreme speeds.
Click to expand...
One way to test it is to set up shots using a marked cue ball (maybe a striped ball) and try to hit a specific spot on the CB. Then check the chalk mark after each shot to see how close you came.

For reality it's best to actually shoot an OB into a pocket so you can't just focus on the CB alone.

pj
chgo
 
lfigueroa said:
I believe that is the problem with a lot of the stuff out on the market. One guy, perhaps a very good player, tries to take what he does/sees and make it a universal. But there are too many variables, from being able to visualize spacial relations, to differences in physical make up and set up.

In the end we all create our own reality when it comes to pool.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

Great post Lou. Great players and great instructor's seem to feel that there way is the best way. Johnnyt
 
Mikjary said:
At contact. There is a transfer of energy up until that point through the kinetic chain. Just the same as a baseball swing, there is a buildup of energy through muscle groups to gain an intended speed for the swing.

If we were programmable machinery, not able to coordinate a movement different than the any other similar machinery, maybe so. Each individual has the ability to achieve different measures of success in the steps leading up to contact. This is the area that should be discussed, not a one millisecond ball/tip collision.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Fairly Good Post Mike.

It is the biomechanics that happen up to & during contact that make any given shot what it is.

That said, I think both need to be studied together because it is that short time frame & short distance known as contact that we are all trying to affect. Well, very many, if not most all of us.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
Patrick Johnson said:
One way to test it is to set up shots using a marked cue ball (maybe a striped ball) and try to hit a specific spot on the CB. Then check the chalk mark after each shot to see how close you came.

For reality it's best to actually shoot an OB into a pocket so you can't just focus on the CB alone.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Patrick I thought I addressed the point of stroke accuracy. I'm certainly not perfect but 1mm is fairly close. I understand the distraction of adding the OB but I didn't cheat myself on an expensive lesson during the test. I also do a lot of clocking of the CB and in order for those systems to work I have stay in calibration. In other words I must hit the intended spot, at least within reason.

I'll admit part of my pushback on the suggestion is you're asking me to get on a pool table and actually pocket balls.:(

And for DTL, I understand what you're saying but there's several ways to use the wrist. One being to flick the cue. Another to follow through the CB. Another to attempt (maybe futile) minimize some of the deceleration. Another to ... and another.

All this I've played with in my journey. Some I've got in my hip pocket, some went into the circular file.

I certainly understand and actually accept that the main ingredient is contact point and cue speed but I also believe there's certain techniques that allow the cue to do its job better. Additionally I believe some of these techniques are personal. In other words my delivery system is more conducive to certain techniques while someone else can achieve the same results with another technique or delivery.

I simply find it hard to believe there's no other ingredient than contact point and cue speed. I've been wrong before. Just ask my wife.
 
CJ Wiley said:
As I pointed out there are three different ways of producing a good stroke as far as the wrist is concerned. This may not be something you want to incorporate, but from my experience it's "different stokes for different folks" and it's never a bad thing to find out if something "may work better.

In the process you may find out more about your own style and improve it in the process. Either way it's a win/win situation and it certainly won't hurt.

My uncocking action is a smooth transition that occurs much like the hammer motion. My arm moves at a slower, consistant speed then the wrist kicks in right before contact.

There is no "snapping motions" in my delivery, and I can produce enough power to draw the ball an impressive distance with just the wrist movement and very little arm speed at all.
Click to expand...

Mosconi said you can generate all of the force you need with the wrist and I asked Keith in his heyday what made him so good and he said he did not know for sure but it was in the wrist.
 
JoeyA said:
I don't know about now, but a few years back, I remember Scott Frost saying that he uses a TIGHT GRIP as compared to a loose grip.
Maybe, there are different ways to obtain the same result.
JoeyA
Click to expand...
I have watched this Frost man like a hawk since I first saw him play. (I consider him to be one of the greatest....a little hotheaded maybe, but his skills are wonderful)
He is indeed holding his stick tighter than most....and that's good news to me.
I find that the tighter I grip that stick, the straighter I shoot and I see no changes in spin, draw, or follow.
I find that if I start missing balls, all I have to do is tighten up that grip and suddenly they start doing what I want them to do again.
Don't know why, don't care.
As someone said on here...."pool is an outcome based game, the ball either goes in the pocket or it doesn't. Could care less about the "why".
:smile:
 
DTL said:
.................I could be wrong, too. .:smile:

"Whatever way you use the wrist, if it adds something extra to the CB (spin, distance) it's from added tip speed and/or a different tip location, .
Click to expand...

Ah! I think you've fallen into the trap. Most instructors and science guys will argue that anything you do after contact is meaningless. The ball is gone. I don't disagree but using the wrist to create the sensation of stroking through the ball or increasing more dwell time does nothing to change the speed of the stroke. Its my contention that the mechanics that's required to achieve this sensation, which occurs before contact can make a difference.

EDIT: Just so you understand. I do not have a wristy stroke. Quite the contrary. I' have experimented with it although.
 
Last edited:
I have seen players do some pretty cool stuff with the cue ball. I could tell what English the we're trying to play. I would try those shots and could not do them. Until I experimented with different ways of applying sidespin. BHE, FHE and parallel. I figured I just didn't have the stroke until I applied sidespin with different methods. Thats when I was able to do some shots I could not before.
 
3kushn said:
Patrick I thought I addressed the point of stroke accuracy.
Click to expand...
I thought you wanted to study it some more. Anyway, just a suggestion for how to double check if you're interested. No stroke implications intended.

I'll admit part of my pushback on the suggestion is you're asking me to get on a pool table and actually pocket balls.:(
Click to expand...
I think you could test 3C shots too. Ideally I'd try to test each shot as I practiced normally, reorienting the "CB" as needed to get a visible tip target each time - for the most realistic test conditions.

pj
chgo
 
Johnnyt said:
Great post Lou. Great players and great instructor's seem to feel that there way is the best way. Johnnyt
Click to expand...


Gracias, JT.

The physical part, I always thought was a bigger element that most of us suspect, from Mosconi to Pagulayan... maybe shorter is better when it comes to pool.

Lou Figueroa
yes, I know
there are great
tall players too
 
GoldenFlash said:
I have watched this Frost man like a hawk since I first saw him play. (I consider him to be one of the greatest....a little hotheaded maybe, but his skills are wonderful)
He is indeed holding his stick tighter than most....and that's good news to me.
I find that the tighter I grip that stick, the straighter I shoot and I see no changes in spin, draw, or follow.
I find that if I start missing balls, all I have to do is tighten up that grip and suddenly they start doing what I want them to do again.
Don't know why, don't care.
As someone said on here...."pool is an outcome based game, the ball either goes in the pocket or it doesn't. Could care less about the "why".
:smile:
Click to expand...

I know what you mean & I have played with what would be considered a loose connection to the cue for more than 45 years.

Since trying & going to TOI for probably more than 60% of shots my connection just naturally firmed up with no conscious effort or decision on my part.

What I've come to realise is that certain shots are more conducive to one over the other. By shots, I mean the cue ball control or action.

As to what you are talking about, the balls just going into the pocket.

I good test is to hit a ton of the diagonal straight in shot with both types of 'grips' & notice the differences.

Like someone said elsewhere, we are individuals & some aspects may hold true to a certain number but to say any of it is universal to all would be foolish.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
DTL said:
LOL.....you've trapped yourself. :) You obviously misread my post. Of course "added tip speed and/or different tip locaton" (than intended) from various wrist motions happens just before contact.

ps I know nothing about the great game of 3C.

ps you'll likely get a PM soon......not from me, though :wink:
Click to expand...

Sorry, but you didn't understand what I said and maybe I can't say it understandably.

The wrist doesn't come into play until at contact, if you're trying to create the "sensation" of longer "dwell time", or what I call "pushing" through the CB. Others say stroking "through the cue ball" Basically creating a great follow through, but the sensation of hanging on to the CB or pushing or controlling, or however you would like to describe it, requires something before contact but that something has nothing to do with changing cue speeds.

Like I tried to say, what I do and feel has nothing to do with you or anybody else. And what's been said many times, the game is 90% mental.

I'm simply revealing my mental side when I'm in dead zone stroke.

Not to be feared BTW.
 
3kushn said:
Sorry, but you didn't understand what I said and maybe I can't say it understandably.

The wrist doesn't come into play until at contact, if you're trying to create the "sensation" of longer "dwell time", or what I call "pushing" through the CB. Others say stroking "through the cue ball" Basically creating a great follow through, but the sensation of hanging on to the CB or pushing or controlling, or however you would like to describe it, requires something before contact but that something has nothing to do with changing cue speeds.

Like I tried to say, what I do and feel has nothing to do with you or anybody else. And what's been said many times, the game is 90% mental.

I'm simply revealing my mental side when I'm in dead zone stroke.

Not to be feared BTW.
Click to expand...

Mr. Kushn,

I understand & know what you mean. I was just a short while back trying to explain to another the importance about 'feeling' the cue ball.

There is such a thing as timing in a cue stroke.

Most of the time it seems to be assumed by most on AZB that we all are using a full 'pendulum' type stroke & with the cue just setting on the curl of the fingers.

I for one am not.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
This is probably going to sound stupid but the best way to describe my grip is to let your hand hang naturally cradling the cue between your thumb and forefinger. Now turn your palm outward by just rotating your pinky away from the butt a little...not cocking your wrist out or in(cupping). This turns the back of your hand, ever so slightly, towards the OB. I'm able to get much more wrist action this way while still stroking straight through the CB.

Try it. While sitting there hold your hand up in the air with thumb straight up and rotate your hand up and down without moving your forearm. Now rotate your pinky out a little and notice the difference in wrist action. The cradle between your thumb and forefinger barely changes, and if anything it lets the cue ride more on the flat underside of the thumb while still keeping the thumb down with the top of the thumb stroking parallel to the shot line. I seem to have a better natural feeling finish with the wrist cocked down without the tendency to drop the elbow....works for me. The only pro I've seen that comes close to what I'm talking about is Django...although he has a lot more of a wristy psr than I do..his finish is straight. I am in no way trying to compare myself to the talents of a Bustie...just saying his grip is close to mine.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top