WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[ENGLISH!]

I will consider advice from anyone, whether or not they are better or more knowledgeable than me. Once considered, I will give feedback that indicates my evaluation of said advice.

Like I said, CJ is a great player, and his methods clearly work for him. My problem is that he's trying to convince everyone that his methods are the correct way to do things. They may work for him, or maybe he's a great player in spite of his methods, such as his unorthodox grip.

You said in your previous post that CJ routinely says that his methods may not work for everyone. Well this is not apparent in the posts I've read. He is speaking as if his methods are scientific fact, which is absurd.

Consider the following statements:



In his head, maybe this all makes sense, but I'd really like to know what his physics background is, considering he's stating "facts" about energy transfer in relation to grip pressure.



He is stating this as fact, backed by pseudo-science that he has come up with. This is not stated as an opinion, nor is he just telling us what his methods are.

I get ya.

Yeah, if one just reads an individual post I can see how it can look & come across.

He's not a physics teacher.

I'll just repeat something I've said several times recently & I think you may be able to relate to it since you started younger than I did.

I am glad that I started playing, at 13, before I had any physics education. I am also glad that I later got an education in physics.

I doubt that the old gentleman from whom I had to steal my game even knew what physics is.

Thanks for the reply & Best 2 You.

Shoot Well,
Rick

 

[DTL]

.................

 

[cookie man]

Originally Posted by CJ Wiley View Post
Think of hitting a baseball with a loose grip (on a cold day), the energy doesn't transfer like it does with a firm grip and while pool is much different there's still a similarity between grip pressure and how the energy is transferred from the speed of the stroke to the cue ball.


Rick, what is your opinion on this? I know u have some baseball background.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

railbird99:
Consider the following statements:

CJ Wiley:
Think of hitting a baseball with a loose grip (on a cold day), the energy doesn't transfer like it does with a firm grip and while pool is much different there's still a similarity between grip pressure and how the energy is transferred from the speed of the stroke to the cue ball.

In his head, maybe this all makes sense, but I'd really like to know what his physics background is, considering he's stating "facts" about energy transfer in relation to grip pressure.

CJ Wiley:
Therefore you do need different pressure for various shots

He is stating this as fact, backed by pseudo-science that he has come up with. This is not stated as an opinion, nor is he just telling us what his methods are.

In fact, high speed cameras (I think at the Jacksonville Project in 1998) have showed that even with a tight grip the cue is slowed by about half when it hits the cue ball - the soft flesh of the hand gives, effectively disconnecting the hand/arm from the cue during contact. So all of this grip pressure speculation has been disproven for years.

But don't expect our puny facts to stop nonsense claims when there's unsold DVDs stacked up in the garage.

pj
chgo

 

[Ralph Kramden]

I grip the cue fairly loosely with my thumb and first three fingers on most follow shots.
I grip the cue loosely in my first finger with second and third finger pressure on draws.

Don't ask why, but it puts downward cue pressure on my bridge hand drawing the CB.


.

 

[Mikjary]

In fact, high speed cameras (I think at the Jacksonville Project in 1998) have showed that even with a tight grip the cue is slowed by about half when it hits the cue ball - the soft flesh of the hand gives, effectively disconnecting the hand/arm from the cue during contact.

At contact. There is a transfer of energy up until that point through the kinetic chain. Just the same as a baseball swing, there is a buildup of energy through muscle groups to gain an intended speed for the swing.

So all of this grip pressure speculation has been disproven for years.

If we were programmable machinery, not able to coordinate a movement different than the any other similar machinery, maybe so. Each individual has the ability to achieve different measures of success in the steps leading up to contact. This is the area that should be discussed, not a one millisecond ball/tip collision.

Best,
Mike

 

[Dr_CollieCue]

Given that everyone else on the site has weighed in, I will add my $.02. To me, you need a light (not loose) but firm grip for most shots; loosening my grip somewhat (but not getting too loose) provides more acceleration; and tightening it too much restricts the stroke and reduces accuracy. In both cases, the degree of firmness in the grip affects how your wrist works with your hand and arm in delivering the stroke. I do feel like I get somewhat different results depending on which side of a light but firm grip I use - the somewhat looser grip (but not too loose) enables me to apply more spin and the somewhat tighter grip (but not too tight) deadens the hit, reduces acceleration of the cue, and lessens spin. Either that is the way it works for me or I am misinterpreting what is occurring. The Goldilocks theory - just right is firm enough but not too loose or too tight.

I also feel that avoiding too much tightening requires more conscious thought than avoiding a grip that is too loose because if I start too loose, the grip naturally firms up as I stroke.

It is a lot like the golf grip - firm enough to control the club but light enough to permit the muscles to swing the club smoothly and with power.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

At contactEach individual has the ability to achieve different measures of success in the steps leading up to contact. This is the area that should be discussed, not a one millisecond ball/tip collision.

Of course that's why stroke is discussed so much, but recognizing that the one millisecond ball/tip collision is where 100% of the action is teaches us what's important about the stroke - delivering the tip reliably to a precise position, direction and speed at contact. Not some ineffable "quality" of the stroke (or grip or whatever) that produces "more action".

pj
chgo

 

[LAMas]

Given that everyone else on the site has weighed in, I will add my $.02. To me, you need a light (not loose) but firm grip for most shots; loosening my grip somewhat (but not getting too loose) provides more acceleration; and tightening it too much restricts the stroke and reduces accuracy. In both cases, the degree of firmness in the grip affects how your wrist works with your hand and arm in delivering the stroke. I do feel like I get somewhat different results depending on which side of a light but firm grip I use - the somewhat looser grip (but not too loose) enables me to apply more spin and the somewhat tighter grip (but not too tight) deadens the hit, reduces acceleration of the cue, and lessens spin. Either that is the way it works for me or I am misinterpreting what is occurring. The Goldilocks theory - just right is firm enough but not too loose or too tight.

I also feel that avoiding too much tightening requires more conscious thought than avoiding a grip that is too loose because if I start too loose, the grip naturally firms up as I stroke.

It is a lot like the golf grip - firm enough to control the club but light enough to permit the muscles to swing the club smoothly and with power.

Your comments are appreciated.

Be well.

 

[LAMas]

At contact. There is a transfer of energy up until that point through the kinetic chain. Just the same as a baseball swing, there is a buildup of energy through muscle groups to gain an intended speed for the swing.



If we were programmable machinery, not able to coordinate a movement different than the any other similar machinery, maybe so. Each individual has the ability to achieve different measures of success in the steps leading up to contact. This is the area that should be discussed, not a one millisecond ball/tip collision.

Best,
Mike

Mike,
Efren told a few of us when he came to SoCA, years ago, that he uses a tight bridge an a loose grip...but that's just him but he moves the toy ball around to get great shape.

I have watched vids of him and he often uses the grip wrist to get BHE.

Be well.

 

[3kushn]

I do feel like I get somewhat different results depending on which side of a light but firm grip I use - the somewhat looser grip (but not too loose) enables me to apply more spin and the somewhat tighter grip (but not too tight) and lessens spin. The Goldilocks theory - just right is firm enough but not too loose or too tight.

I also feel that avoiding too much tightening requires more conscious thought than avoiding a grip that is too loose because if I start too loose, the grip naturally firms up as I stroke.

I modified your post to suit myself. Hope you don't mind.

I'm no expert but the bold is why I start with a firm grip then relax, and on delivery, let loose (on most shots) just prior to contact. I'm a cue thrower, so to speak although use a rubber grip. Cue aint going anywhere with the rubber.

 

[3kushn]

Of course that's why stroke is discussed so much, but recognizing that the one millisecond ball/tip collision is where 100% of the action is teaches us what's important about the stroke - delivering the tip reliably to a precise position, direction and speed at contact. Not some ineffable "quality" of the stroke (or grip or whatever) that produces "more action".

pj
chgo

So the only things that matters is where the tip lands and at what speed? There is nothing else to applying spin. Right, Left, Top Bottom or anywhere else.

Its only about tip placement at contact.

If that is the case then the only difference between a pro and a 10 year old regarding applying spin is contacting the CB at the same spot.

Not being rude here. I just have a hard time believing this.

 

[Mikjary]

Of course that's why stroke is discussed so much, but recognizing that the one millisecond ball/tip collision is where 100% of the action is teaches us what's important about the stroke - delivering the tip reliably to a precise position, direction and speed at contact. Not some ineffable "quality" of the stroke (or grip or whatever) that produces "more action".

pj
chgo

Yes, I agree. I'd just like to get away from the stigma of "the cue ball doesn't care", and move toward what happens before the cue ball contact. This is where "how" we hold the cue is important.

A reliable delivery is set up by these qualities, such as the grip and really can't be downplayed. Some descriptions and analogies may be unusual and misleading, but if they give the user a strong mental image of a correct stroke for them, how wrong can they be?

"More action" is relative to each shooter's abilities and may hold true for non technical reasons. I think an image can be easy to incorporate into a way of looking at something. Finding the right image is different for many and probably very few are alike.

Best,
Mike

 

[JoeyA]

I don't know about now, but a few years back, I remember Scott Frost saying that he uses a TIGHT GRIP as compared to a loose grip.

Maybe, there are different ways to obtain the same result.

JoeyA

 

[Mikjary]

Mike,
Efren told a few of us when he came to SoCA, years ago, that he uses a tight bridge an a loose grip...but that's just him but he moves the toy ball around to get great shape.

I have watched vids of him and he often uses the grip wrist to get BHE.

Be well.

Big E,

I've watched Parica, Alex, and the other Pinoy champs loosening up their stroke before a spin shot. They move their wrist loosely and "warm" up for the stroke.

If they don't get the expected outcome, they again, loosely waggle their wrist to double check what went wrong.

If you get a chance, it would be interesting to hear what they say about the low address on the cue ball as far as finishing through the ball.

Best,
Mike

 

[LAMas]

So the only things that matters is where the tip lands and at what speed? There is nothing else to applying spin. Right, Left, Top Bottom or anywhere else.

Its only about tip placement at contact.

If that is the case then the only difference between a pro and a 10 year old regarding applying spin is contacting the CB at the same spot.

Not being rude here. I just have a hard time believing this.

You aren't the only one...welcome.
There aren't any studies applying force vectors for a solid vs. a glancing blow/hit.

 

[Mikjary]

I don't know about now, but a few years back, I remember Scott Frost saying that he uses a TIGHT GRIP as compared to a loose grip.

Maybe, there are different ways to obtain the same result.

JoeyA

I've heard everything in between, too. I think it's subjective and changes during different shots or playing on different equipment. A fast table or a sticky bar rag may change the stroke, too.

I watch players on the fast Diamonds and their back swings start to look like an Alan Hopkins clinic. I know their grip is probably a little looser, too. :smile:

Best,
Mike

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So the only things that matters is where the tip lands and at what speed?

And from what direction, yes.

There is nothing else to applying spin. Right, Left, Top Bottom or anywhere else.

Its only about tip placement at contact.

Yup.

If that is the case then the only difference between a pro and a 10 year old regarding applying spin is contacting the CB at the same spot.

Yup. Give a 10 year old enough tries and he'll eventually hit the same spot and get the same action. But we never see that happen because the odds are so much against it on any one try. A pro can do it every time, so we get to see it.

The "magic" in a pro's stroke is consistent accuracy at all speeds, which allows him to play farther from the CB's center and get more action. We mortals try to hit farther from center, but being inconsistent we miscue too often trying to do that, so we subconsciously steer our tips back to safer territory - "settling for" less CB action.

pj
chgo

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Yup.
In red I agree 100 percent.

I wonder if anyone in the forum has ever hit a ball "too good" I know I have.

And from what direction, yes.

Yup. Give a 10 year old enough tries and he'll eventually hit the same spot and get the same action. But we never see that happen because the odds are so much against it on any one try. A pro can do it every time, so we get to see it.

The "magic" in a pro's stroke is consistent accuracy at all speeds, which allows him to play farther from the CB's center and get more action. We mortals try to hit farther from center, but being inconsistent we miscue too often trying to do that, so we subconsciously steer our tips back to safer territory - "settling for" less CB action.

pj
chgo

 

[lfigueroa]

Assuming your definition of shortstop is the same as mine, which is a level below semi-pro, I've reached a level most players will never reach, no matter how much they practice.

I chose to go to college and get a degree, and I make a very good living as a software developer. I also have a son and girlfriend. There are many other things in my life besides pool. I don't have the time to practice 8 hours+ a day or travel to big tournaments, which is necessary to play at semi-pro/pro speed.

There's no question I could change parts of my game to get better, but that in no way means what CJ suggests is the right way to go about it.

I believe that is the problem with a lot of the stuff out on the market. One guy, perhaps a very good player, tries to take what he does/sees and make it a universal. But there are too many variables, from being able to visualize spacial relations, to differences in physical make up and set up.

In the end we all create our own reality when it comes to pool.

Lou Figueroa