WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

your hand draws back and comes forward to exactly where it started

madmiller said:
can you say more about this , please! I was always told that your stroke is good if when the cue always goes straight after the impact and when I watch Willie, it 's sometimes completely opposite
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The main thing with accuracy is that your hand draws back and comes forward to exactly where it started with a quick "wrist flick". I like to feel like my wrist releases quickly through the ball, like throwing a dart (may be something you can relate to).

I recommend that you follow through straight no more than the distance you draw the cue back (on the backswing). If you take it 6" back, then go 6" past the cue ball and stop. An extended follow through is mostly for show and serves no real purpose in the shot.

Acceleration is the most important thing and extending your TIP through the ball 4-6 inches is usually fine. Then, like Mosconi you can finish however you feel comfortable. I personally think it's easier to follow through straight just because there's less resistance. I was kind of surprised that Mosconi has that sudden movement to the left. Did he alway have that? I really never watched him play when he was in his prime.....that may have been developed later in life as something to overcome "the yips", but I'm only guessing.
 
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Waiting for my rubber grip to arrive in the post so that I can experiment with a nice light grip and delicate wrist action. Current (linen) wrap is just too slippy to do that right now.
 
I used a rubber grip back in the late 80s and wore it out in 3 months

Luther Blissett said:
Waiting for my rubber grip to arrive in the post so that I can experiment with a nice light grip and delicate wrist action. Current (linen) wrap is just too slippy to do that right now.
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I used a rubber grip back in the late 80s and wore it out in 3 months I played so much. I wore a hole where I was gripping it from my "delicate" wrist action.:groucho:...just kiddin, I would actually "bond" my fingers to the cue for max. control with that rubber grip and still keep tension out of my stroke.

We learn that in martial arts, to have a very tight fist, and relatively relaxed in the arms. The trick is to tighten the fist first, then relax the arm. This gives 'the best of both worlds," the power and speed with the fingers and elasticity in the arm. imho

This suggestion is for the athletic players out there that look at pocket billiards as a sport, not "just" a game. ;)
 
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CJ Wiley said:
I personally use a consistant grip pressure. Many do have a very light grip and then tighten at impact.

I know many top players though the years that shared my same opinions, however they did use the light grip.

This, to me is the personal part of pool. It's more like fingerprints, everyone's are slightly different when magnified. 'The Game is the Teacher'
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Thanks for clearing this up.

Now I dont have to worry about doing it wrong.

When I'm using your grip I feel the cue between my index finger knuckle and index finger first joint. When down on the shot I measure (feel) the distance with my first 3 fingers and go thru the hammer motion. The OB is the nail.
What helps me is to imagine that the OB is a dart board and my cue is a dart. I'm trying to stick my dart right in the bulls eye.

Thanks for your help

John
 
Cj,

First of all thank you for all the help and time you have given on this forum.

Second, When will your new DVD be avilable for purchase, and where can I purchase it ?

Thank you again, :)
 
The most important part of this whole thread was only "touched" on...

Just like in Golf.....Wrist action is secondary....The most important part is the "grip"....If you don't have the correct grip...you can forget about proper wrist action......Part of the grip is "grip pressure"....use the wrong pressure points and it "reduces" wrist action...proper pressures promote "natural" wrist action.

IMO....Pool instruction has/does promotes the "wrong" grip for "natural" wrist action.....The first finger and thumb are death to wrist action......and don't promote a fundamentally neutral grip...or wrist position......IMO

CJ...Since you have access...If you have not....you should follow up with Hank on grip pressures that "promote" and "reduce" natural wrist action..

There are times in Golf when you want to eliminate or at least reduce the thendancy of "natural" wrist action for certain shots....

Bottom line...if the Grip is correct...Your wrist action will happen without any added effort...and it will be a natural and consistent motion....With the wrong grip...you will have to force it...or may not even be able to do it at all.

JMO.:wink:
 
CJ,
This is a great post. I had not read this thread until today. The other day I was experimenting on changing my grip and I stumbled on what you are saying about cocking/locking the wrist and was amazed and how MUCH more accurate I was shooting. If you hold your arm parallel to the floor as if you are holding a bottle and cock your wrist down that is how I held the wrist at pre-set shooting position (cuestick level with tip close to cueball). It really changed my long shot accuracy with controlled draw. This thread and your advice validated my findings. Thanks for your posts!

Earl Munson
 
First let me start of by saying this is a great thread. Hats off to Mr. CJ
I've been using my wrist when I stroke since I started playing pool. Which is about three years on and off. With today's technology I've been recording my stroke through my iphone. I've notice that I would miss if I tighten up my grip and not using my wrist. Also saw some other flaws but that's another story.
I think by doing this it would help. Even though I can't get it in slow high res It still shows me what I need to adjust. I've been dissecting my "system" one step at a time. Then I would put all the pieces together. And my game has gotten better. Sorry for the rant. Hope I helped in anyway possible. Happy shooting everybody
 
BRKNRUN said:
The most important part of this whole thread was only "touched" on...

Just like in Golf.....Wrist action is secondary....The most important part is the "grip"....If you don't have the correct grip...you can forget about proper wrist action......Part of the grip is "grip pressure"....use the wrong pressure points and it "reduces" wrist action...proper pressures promote "natural" wrist action.

IMO....Pool instruction has/does promotes the "wrong" grip for "natural" wrist action.....The first finger and thumb are death to wrist action......and don't promote a fundamentally neutral grip...or wrist position......IMO

CJ...Since you have access...If you have not....you should follow up with Hank on grip pressures that "promote" and "reduce" natural wrist action..

There are times in Golf when you want to eliminate or at least reduce the thendancy of "natural" wrist action for certain shots....

Bottom line...if the Grip is correct...Your wrist action will happen without any added effort...and it will be a natural and consistent motion....With the wrong grip...you will have to force it...or may not even be able to do it at all.

JMO.:wink:
Click to expand...

Hey Ken...where you been? We almost shut down the forums since you quit posting! :wink:

I agree about the right and wrong wrist motions in sports. What feels right, and what works from day to day, are two different animals. Some sessions you can do no wrong. Come back the next day, and you play like guano.

This thread opened my eyes to an actual path to correct my possible stroke inconsistencies. As CJ said, which we all understand but dismiss as too trivial to be important, each individual has their own way of doing things. Whether their way is the correct method or not remains to be seen with results oriented feedback.

I noticed different grip changes affected my stroke positively and negatively. Obviously I explored the positive changes, but found that certain types of strokes didn't work with one grip or the other. I locked, unlocked, and tried every grip I could think of, but I couldn't find one that was able to be used for all strokes. So I defaulted to the one that felt the most comfortable and honed that one.

Now I've traded comfort and security for a grip I realize is individual for me. It is "locked", yet not rigid. I played for an extended time last night laboring to cock my wrist on every shot. After an hour I noticed my mind accepting the change and started to get pretty confident I could get it to increase not only my pocketing ability, but my position play. It was a mental battle to not fall back into what I relied upon to get out in the past. Frustration and dogging easy outs made me bear down and work harder to get this method to work.

Slowly but surely I started to get used to the change and by the end of the night I was in dead whack. My sparring partner commented after I barely missed a long shot that I was human after all. At that time I hadn't realized my increased pocketing ability. So my brain seems to be not resisting anymore and accepting the change as my "new method".

So what's comfortable and natural may or may not always be the path to pool Nirvana. My wrist motion was in the opposite direction, so this is a 180 for me. It's always hard to change fundamentals. A crapshoot at best. At worst, you still ain't a pro.

It'll take a lot more practice to be naturally using this method. There's an open nine ball tourney coming up and I may just give it a test ride. :smilewinkgrin:

Best,
Mike
 
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BRKNRUN said:
The most important part of this whole thread was only "touched" on...

Just like in Golf.....Wrist action is secondary....The most important part is the "grip"....If you don't have the correct grip...you can forget about proper wrist action......Part of the grip is "grip pressure"....use the wrong pressure points and it "reduces" wrist action...proper pressures promote "natural" wrist action.

IMO....Pool instruction has/does promotes the "wrong" grip for "natural" wrist action.....The first finger and thumb are death to wrist action......and don't promote a fundamentally neutral grip...or wrist position......IMO

CJ...Since you have access...If you have not....you should follow up with Hank on grip pressures that "promote" and "reduce" natural wrist action..

There are times in Golf when you want to eliminate or at least reduce the thendancy of "natural" wrist action for certain shots....

Bottom line...if the Grip is correct...Your wrist action will happen without any added effort...and it will be a natural and consistent motion....With the wrong grip...you will have to force it...or may not even be able to do it at all.

JMO.:wink:
Click to expand...

Hi Ken,

When Greg Norman was 'choking' some close tournaments on the 18th. hole by missing to the right, Jack Nicklaus only said two(2) words to him, 'grip pressure'.

I believe that is why CJ wants the grip pressure to be constant from start to finish. Mental pressure & staying loose are not conducive in human nature.

In golf, the position of the hands after taking the grip can effect the wrist action, low hands with an increased angle between the forearm & shaft can increase wrist action while the opposite of high hands with less angle between the forearm & shaft can limit wrist action. Just as a long or short grip & a long or short thumb can effect the affects of wrist action.

IMO One has to keep in mind that CJ's stroke is not the 'conventional' stroke getting into a position that allows the cue tip to flow where one wants it to go, it is more of an athletic stroke of making or putting the cue tip where he wants it to go. So...the wrist action is of a different nature & direction.

Just my humble $0.02 interpretation.
 
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CJ Wiley said:
I was kind of surprised that Mosconi has that sudden movement to the left. Did he alway have that? I really never watched him play when he was in his prime.....that may have been developed later in life as something to overcome "the yips", but I'm only guessing.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure Willie didn't always have that movement to the left. Remember, that video was taken 23 years AFTER he retired from competition.
 
Mikjary said:
Hey Ken...where you been? We almost shut down the forums since you quit posting! :wink:

I agree about the right and wrong wrist motions in sports. What feels right, and what works from day to day, are two different animals. Some sessions you can do no wrong. Come back the next day, and you play like guano.

This thread opened my eyes to an actual path to correct my possible stroke inconsistencies. As CJ said, which we all understand but dismiss as too trivial to be important, each individual has their own way of doing things. Whether their way is the correct method or not remains to be seen with results oriented feedback.

I noticed different grip changes affected my stroke positively and negatively. Obviously I explored the positive changes, but found that certain types of strokes didn't work with one grip or the other. I locked, unlocked, and tried every grip I could think of, but I couldn't find one that was able to be used for all strokes. So I defaulted to the one that felt the most comfortable and honed that one.

Now I've traded comfort and security for a grip I realize is individual for me. It is "locked", yet not rigid. I played for an extended time last night laboring to cock my wrist on every shot. After an hour I noticed my mind accepting the change and started get pretty confident I could get it to increase not only my pocketing ability, but my position play. It was a mental battle to not fall back into what I relied upon to get out in the past. Frustration and dogging easy outs made me bear down and work harder to get this method to work.

Slowly but surely I started to get used to the change and by the end of the night I was in dead whack. My sparring partner commented after I barely missed a long shot that I was human after all. At that time I hadn't realized my increased pocketing ability. So my brain seems to be not resisting anymore and accepting the change as my "new method".

So what's comfortable and natural may or may not always be the path to pool Nirvana. My wrist motion was in the opposite direction, so this is a 180 for me. It's always hard to change fundamentals. A crapshoot at best. At worst, you still ain't a pro.

It'll take a lot more practice to be naturally using this method. There's an open nine ball tourney coming up and I may just give it a test ride. :smilewinkgrin:

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,

Very good post.

I spent much less time with it yesterday as I was developing some discomfort in my forearm. So, I reverted back to my normal totally opposite type of stroke just as your 'old stroke' was.

My findings were very similiar. When I was trying it out on long spot shot angle cuts, it was dead on & with little worry of any mis hit.

I will need to find some devoted time to really give it a go as it is extremely difficult to consider changing what you have been doing fairly well for 46 years. But since I definitely 'real eyes' the potential benefits, I'd be a fool not to give it a good go. (open door for disparaging slur)

Keep playing well with your 'new' found technique from the mind of CJ Wiley freely giving of his experience & insights. (open door for disparaging slur)

Have a Good Sunday,
 
8ballEinstein said:
I'm pretty sure Willie didn't always have that movement to the left. Remember, that video was taken 23 years AFTER he retired from competition.
Click to expand...


Mosconi had a stroke in late 1956 when he was 43 that paralyzed his left side. Though he obviously got back to a high level of play I believe he said his pool stroke was never as smooth again.

Lou Figueroa
 
ENGLISH! said:
Mike,

Very good post.

I spent much less time with it yesterday as I was developing some discomfort in my forearm. So, I reverted back to my normal totally opposite type of stroke just as your 'old stroke' was.

My findings were very similiar. When I was trying it out on long spot shot angle cuts, it was dead on & with little worry of any mis hit.

I will need to find some devoted time to really give it a go as it is extremely difficult to consider changing what you have been doing fairly well for 46 years. But since I definitely 'real eyes' the potential benefits, I'd be a fool not to give it a good go. (open door for disparaging slur)

Keep playing well with your 'new' found technique from the mind of CJ Wiley freely giving of his experience & insights. (open door for disparaging slur)

Have a Good Sunday,
Click to expand...

Thanks, Rick.

I found there are a couple of ways to lock my wrist. Just doing it as I grab the cue stick, or lining up on the shot with the stick at my side, and then raising it to eye level. I found if I consciously made the effort to raise the stick shot after shot, it took no physical effort and seemed more natural. Skipping this PSR and assuming you're cocking your wrist may be unnatural to you and causing discomfort.

I tried both ways and noticed a difference from one to the other. When I tried to cock my wrist, I over did it. When I lifted my cue, I was at a more reasonable angle. Just something I noticed.

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
Thanks, Rick.

I found there are a couple of ways to lock my wrist. Just doing it as I grab the cue stick, or lining up on the shot with the stick at my side, and then raising it to eye level. I found if I consciously made the effort to raise the stick shot after shot, it took no physical effort and seemed more natural. Skipping this PSR and assuming you're cocking your wrist may be unnatural to you and causing discomfort.

I tried both ways and noticed a difference from one to the other. When I tried to cock my wrist, I over did it. When I lifted my cue, I was at a more reasonable angle. Just something I noticed.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,

I agree & raising the cue is what I was doing. I think the discomfort comes from me being a 'low eye aimer'. CJ has suggested that he is a bit of a 'taller' player.

I just do not know if I can change SO much at one time. I just need to find the 'practice' time to dedicate to the changes. I almost never practice, I just play. I don't know if I can commit to losing while playing til I get it honed in. I think I am going to just need time to just practice until it is honed in enough to have the confidence to take it to playing with it.

Best Regards,
 
I tried this out the other night...it worked okay, but I'm getting much better feel and action with my current grip. His cocked back wrist grip is as straight as a grip can be, though. Might be something I work into my game for certain shots (maybe long shots that don't require a strong stroke...but absolute accuracy).
 
West Point 1987 said:
I tried this out the other night...it worked okay, but I'm getting much better feel and action with my current grip. His cocked back wrist grip is as straight as a grip can be, though. Might be something I work into my game for certain shots (maybe long shots that don't require a strong stroke...but absolute accuracy).
Click to expand...

I woud agree. It seems to be deadly accurate. But... I'm not sure I can get comfortable enough with it to use it constantly. But...it is certainly another tool in my toolbox.
 
With some practice you can manipulate this grip into a whip/snap movement when a stronger stroke is needed. The trick is too keep the cue firm against the index knuckle in your palm.
 
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