WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[CJ Wiley]

Utilizing one type shot that works on 90% of the shots is a very desirable

Sure you will be faced with shots all the time that requires different CB condition at contact point of OB to achieve desired results either potting a ball or position, or both, at times the inside english half, and 1/4 of the outside english side of CB could be blocked by an OB now you are forced to use outside, and more than a touch.
The amount of english depends on how far the OB from CB, table cloth condition, speed..etc as long as you know what needs to be done with aim adjustments, you will be a hero.

Again, players always run their check list on a shot, 1st check list item, english or no english and select a shot that provide best outcome for next two balls or more.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Naji, we're playing a different type game because of our philosophy (way of thinking and approach), you are correct in your opinion, and I'm correct in my approach as well. Using a "different spin and speed" depending on what the table (or situation) tells you to do is a common practice and it will get positive results, however, without a lot of skill and practice it can be unreliable.

Utilizing one type shot that works on 90% of the shots is a very desirable thing to know and understand in my opinion. And it's ok to disagree, I completely relate to your way of thinking, I just don't use it.

You have a common philosophy about the game and if it works for you I'd suggest you don't change. I've described the differences several times, and basically you either let the game tell you what shot to hit ie: speed, spin, cue contact point, etc. OR you make the shot conform to the shot YOU want to hit. With the exception of straight in shots and changing the angle off the rail I use a Touch of Inside every time. I know this sounds almost backwards from what seems "logical," but when I show how this is done on video you will "real eyes" how powerful this technique really is.

I believe the "Touch of Inside" is best because it causes the object ball to cut MORE. Unless you spin the cue ball and deflect it a "Touch of Ouside" will undercut the ball and make you feel like you "dogged it." The only way you can used outside and create the zone in the pocket is to spin it more than you deflect it.

From my experience this is tough to do on different cloths, humidities, tables, etc. The TOI is something you can master, the 4000 shots you speak of, I would venture to guess no one can truly "master." Again, if this goes too much against your philosophy of the Game I would recommend putting it "on a shelf." 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

There's a whole new game within the "normal game."

well firstly i consider one pocket mostly a game of strategy and where the smarter less skilled guy can rob the more skilled guy. I am sure you would be surprised at what the system could do in the hands of someone who has mastered it. The guys that think you have to swing way inside to use this system are the ones that will never understand its potential. If you dont know how or you cant figure out a way to tinker and tweak these systems, they will all look like they fail and will fail. This is the same kind of thing that happen to CTE, dr dave,etc started bringing out drills and said "let me see you make this with CTE" lol

When you are able to hit the necessary shots with the TOI it opens up to ALL games. Until you see what I'm talking about it will be impossible to relate to. I can tell some of you are experimenting with cuing the ball with a Touch of Inside and experiencing the differnent type game it brings out. One thing you will be able to "master" is the "kill shot," or "stun shot," this shot is essential in using the TOI method.

If you have tried hitting everything with a "Touch of Inside" for 3 hours straight you will know what I'm talking about. There's a whole new game within the "normal game." 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

What I am saying is the "Touch of Inside" is the shot I use every chance I get.

That was my problem with TOI yesterday. Soft enough was very difficult if not impossible. It was my first real full effort with it & I'm sure an adjustment can be made to allow for it. I just did not focus on that yesterday.

But I would tend to agree that there will be times when outside will be the correct choice for the shot at hand. When it is I will certainly shoot it that way. I do not think CJ is saying it is the only shot to use. I think he is saying that by making it your predominant shot you will become more consistant AND know why you mis when you mis & can correct it more quickly before a match or tournament is lost by trying the wrong correction.

Just my take.

Regards,

I am not saying that, Rick, you're still confused (when you see me demonstate this technique you will understand better, I promise. :wink:

What I am saying is the "Touch of Inside" is the shot I use every chance I get. The exception is:

1) Curving the Ball 2) Changing the angle after going to a rail 3) If the balls are very close together and I want to "throw" the shot in...the TOI will undercut if you're too close to the object ball (less than a few inches). Also, if two object balls are frozen I may use different spins to throw them in as well....these are "specialty shots," and rarely come up in regular play.

I guess the question becomes " Do I believe I can play better with 3 shots that have similiar qualities (low, middle, high TOI) or 9 shots with varying qualities (low, middle, high{Inside}. low, middle high {Outside} and low, middle high{Center})

I'm merely breaking down the game and simplifying it by taking out unnecessary calculations and establishing a FIRM foundation "TOI". I do believe it's easier to use and master 3 different shots than 9, especially if the 3 have a common denominator (consistent deflection that overcuts the ball slightly). 'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com

 

[naji]

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Naji, we're playing a different type game because of our philosophy (way of thinking and approach), you are correct in your opinion, and I'm correct in my approach as well. Using a "different spin and speed" depending on what the table (or situation) tells you to do is a common practice and it will get positive results, however, without a lot of skill and practice it can be unreliable.

Ok so we are in agreement that table situation dictates what type of shot is needed based on this assumption i agree "without a lot of skill and practice it can be unreliable"; therefore, to be a table master you have to know everything, and not limit it to shots that you know how to execute.


Utilizing one type shot that works on 90% of the shots is a very desirable thing to know and understand in my opinion. And it's ok to disagree, I completely relate to your way of thinking, I just don't use it.


No doubt your system is real easy to teach and pickup quickly. My philosophy approach is to master 100% of shots making, no ball will be missed.

You have a common philosophy about the game and if it works for you I'd suggest you don't change. I've described the differences several times, and basically you either let the game tell you what shot to hit ie: speed, spin, cue contact point, etc. OR you make the shot conform to the shot YOU want to hit. With the exception of straight in shots and changing the angle off the rail I use a Touch of Inside every time. I know this sounds almost backwards from what seems "logical," but when I show how this is done on video you will "real eyes" how powerful this technique really is.

I believe the "Touch of Inside" is best because it causes the object ball to cut MORE. Unless you spin the cue ball and deflect it a "Touch of Ouside" will undercut the ball and make you feel like you "dogged it." The only way you can used outside and create the zone in the pocket is to spin it more than you deflect it.

From my experience this is tough to do on different cloths, humidities, tables, etc. The TOI is something you can master, the 4000 shots you speak of, I would venture to guess no one can truly "master." Again, if this goes too much against your philosophy of the Game I would recommend putting it "on a shelf." 'The Game is the Teacher'

The 4000 shots is really just a number to bring to life the number of possibilities that is involved in making all reasonable shots on table; but the system itself is systematic and will be easy to learn.

I have no doubt that the TOI is a great thing, especially coming from a pro, i encourage everyone to try it.
Thanks for the reply.

 

[naji]

well firstly i consider one pocket mostly a game of strategy and where the smarter less skilled guy can rob the more skilled guy. I am sure you would be surprised at what the system could do in the hands of someone who has mastered it. The guys that think you have to swing way inside to use this system are the ones that will never understand its potential. If you dont know how or you cant figure out a way to tinker and tweak these systems, they will all look like they fail and will fail. This is the same kind of thing that happen to CTE, dr dave,etc started bringing out drills and said "let me see you make this with CTE" lol

I agree TOI works well, but on 90% of shots, and other shots you have to revert back to CTE or other stuff, ok have no issue with that. Bottom line a player must master every shot to be consistent. Other thing, how about banks! and kicks!

 

[CJ Wiley]

Outside "English" can get away from you because it makes the cue ball "run."

I agree TOI works well, but on 90% of shots, and other shots you have to revert back to CTE or other stuff, ok have no issue with that. Bottom line a player must master every shot to be consistent. Other thing, how about banks! and kicks!

I align my Touch of Inside to either the center or edge of the object ball. My aiming system is done ABOVE the ball, and the TOI is done while you're getting down and aiming AT the cue ball. The aiming we do above the shot is a way to connect the balls into an angle we're trying to create.

I have the same opinion on banks, it's easier to judge the angle if you hit the cue ball in a consistent place. If you hit the cue ball in different locations AND try to judge how it effects the bank you will have to be an expert.

Kicks also need consistent cue ball contact. One of the exceptions I mention is when you have to change the angle off the rail after contact. This will more often require some outside (running) english, however, I still want to be consistent, so I get down to the cue ball with a TOI and then pivot the cue slightly back toward center to apply the outside{which means I use about half as much as "normal").

Outside "English" can get away from you because it makes the cue ball "run" (like a "hook" in golf). The TOI method makes the cue ball "heavier," and much less likely to get away from your control. This is also why you MUST hit the cue ball firmer using TOI.

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

I agree TOI works well, but on 90% of shots, and other shots you have to revert back to CTE or other stuff, ok have no issue with that. Bottom line a player must master every shot to be consistent. Other thing, how about banks! and kicks!

we are just talking about TOI, right and not our over all game? I am sure i could master TOI and that still doesn't mean i could whip everyone just in my local pool room I understand the system and what it does but i will leave it on the shelf for now. I already know all the aiming cte,see and pro1 systems. I use pro1 99.9% of the time now and i know how to use TOI with it.

 

[The Renfro]

we are just talking about TOI, right and not our over all game? I am sure i could master TOI and that still doesn't mean i could whip everyone just in my local pool room I understand the system and what it does but i will leave it on the shelf for now. I already know all the aiming cte,see and pro1 systems. I use pro1 99.9% of the time now and i know how to use TOI with it.

You go boy striving for mediocrity is something to be envied in today's world.......

 

[naji]

well firstly i consider one pocket mostly a game of strategy and where the smarter less skilled guy can rob the more skilled guy. I am sure you would be surprised at what the system could do in the hands of someone who has mastered it. The guys that think you have to swing way inside to use this system are the ones that will never understand its potential. If you dont know how or you cant figure out a way to tinker and tweak these systems, they will all look like they fail and will fail. This is the same kind of thing that happen to CTE, dr dave,etc started bringing out drills and said "let me see you make this with CTE" lol

Back to one pocket game, sorry CJ shifting subjects, your statement the smarter less skilled guy can rob the more skilled guy i agree if one player is experienced and the other is a beginner. But if both are equal the separation will be shot making ability, especially when all balls are up table, and banking skill. Because it is one pocket you are shooting at only one pocket, demand for skill with shooting with all kind of english, different speeds is essential for position play.

 

[CJ Wiley]

TOI doesn't "take shots away" for you, it adds to you cue ball flexability

Back to one pocket game, sorry CJ shifting subjects, your statement the smarter less skilled guy can rob the more skilled guy i agree if one player is experienced and the other is a beginner. But if both are equal the separation will be shot making ability, especially when all balls are up table, and banking skill. Because it is one pocket you are shooting at only one pocket, demand for skill with shooting with all kind of english, different speeds is essential for position play.

I know why you believe this, and let me just say "until you completely understand the shots possible with TOI please keep an open mind."

You can play any game at a very high level using the Touch of Inside. I had never played straight pool (14.1) and decided to play in Grady Matthews' Staright Pool Championships. The first 3 days I couldn't hardly run a rack of straight pool, but could run a rack of rotation (with the TOI).

The problem was I was trying to get away from my natural TOI game to try to play the "spinning, easy positon) style of straight pool. I noticed the problem, corrected it and ended up beating Efren Reyes in the winners braquet and losing to Efren in the finals. My high run was 136, and the night before I played Efren in the finals ran back to back 90s (with TOI). Playing with a larger pocket zone and taking the spin off the majority of the shots is a positive thing, as well as the increased flexibiliy in position play.

One thing I need to stress is that the TOI doesn't "take shots away" from you, it actually adds to what you can do with the cue ball and still make the shot. It basically teaches you how to maximize your pocket "Zone," so you can do MORE with the cue ball, not less.

I'm sure someone that's using TOI can elaborate on how much MORE is now possible on each shot using the "Touch of Inside." We're in the process of putting together a video that I can demonstrate this TOI technique. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[ENGLISH!]

I am not saying that, Rick, you're still confused (when you see me demonstate this technique you will understand better, I promise. :wink:

What I am saying is the "Touch of Inside" is the shot I use every chance I get. I thought I said that. The exception is:

1) Curving the Ball 2) Changing the angle after going to a rail 3) If the balls are very close together and I want to "throw" the shot in...the TOI will undercut if you're too close to the object ball (less than a few inches). Also, if two object balls are frozen I may use different spins to throw them in as well....these are "specialty shots," and rarely come up in regular play. I thought I said if the shot calls for it I woud shoot it that way.[/

I guess the question becomes " Do I believe I can play better with 3 shots that have similiar qualities (low, middle, high TOI) or 9 shots with varying qualities (low, middle, high{Inside}. low, middle high {Outside} and low, middle high{Center})

I'm merely breaking down the game and simplifying it by taking out unnecessary calculations and establishing a FIRM foundation "TOI". I do believe it's easier to use and master 3 different shots than 9, especially if the 3 have a common denominator (consistent deflection that overcuts the ball slightly). 'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com

I understand that, but to EVERY rule there are exceptions.

BOY! I thought I understood your phylosophy, but I guess I must be the villiage idiot. I can't believe you are saying that one should shoot with a touch of inside & go three(3) rails to get position when a simple 'easy' shot with outside english will yield the same result. I'm dumbfounded.

But...I'm hungry for real improvement IF it exists. I'm pretty good at 'mastering' the 'spin'. But... I DO understand repetative consistancy.

Sorry for the indignation, but I'm starting to get frustrated with trying to understand just what you are TRYING to say. I thought I did, but you say I'm still confused & I guess I definitely am if going 3 rails instead of a little outside english is better.

Best Regards & Thanks for All of Your Efforts & Patience,

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

You go boy striving for mediocrity is something to be envied in today's world.......

oh i am in the middle of working on other parts of my game and there is no need to try and juggle a few more things at once. Im trying to do this without loosing any speed at the table. Its all a puzzle and I like to fit the pieces in place and not force them. That can get frustrating and set you back :wink:

 

[oshua86]

I just wanna know when DVDs are going to get shipped lol

 

[CJ Wiley]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I understand that, but to EVERY rule there are exceptions.

BOY! I thought I understood your phylosophy, but I guess I must be the villiage idiot. I can't believe you are saying that one should shoot with a touch of inside & go three(3) rails to get position when a simple 'easy' shot with outside english will yield the same result. I'm dumbfounded.

But...I'm hungry for real improvement IF it exists. I'm pretty good at 'mastering' the 'spin'. But... I DO understand repetative consistancy.

Sorry for the indignation, but I'm starting to get frustrated with trying to understand just what you are TRYING to say. I thought I did, but you say I'm still confused & I guess I definitely am if going 3 rails instead of a little outside english is better.

Best Regards & Thanks for All of Your Efforts & Patience,

I have no idea what you're talking about. The only (3) I referred to is places to contact the cue ball (low, middle, and high). I never said anything about going 3 rails.

I think you better put this on your "shelf" (until you can see this on video) and go ahead and spin all your shots. It will be MUCH less confusing. :groucho:

 

[CJ Wiley]

The next order is coming in Monday

I just wanna know when DVDs are going to get shipped lol

The next order is coming in Monday (I was told today). They will be to you by the end of this coming week. Sorry for the delay, I"ll ship them out asap when they arrive.

 

[tatqoo]

The next order is coming in Monday (I was told today). They will be to you by the end of this coming week. Sorry for the delay, I"ll ship them out asap when they arrive.

I would like to ask you to send them overseas also before you go to Mosconi Cup, please.

 

[The Renfro]

oh i am in the middle of working on other parts of my game and there is no need to try and juggle a few more things at once. Im trying to do this without loosing any speed at the table. Its all a puzzle and I like to fit the pieces in place and not force them. That can get frustrating and set you back :wink:

OK that's an answer I can truly understand.... Too many changes at once is a recipe for disaster... Good Luck! :thumbup:

 

[ENGLISH!]

I have no idea what you're talking about. The only (3) I referred to is places to contact the cue ball (low, middle, and high). I never said anything about going 3 rails.

I think you better put this on your "shelf" (until you can see this on video) and go ahead and spin all your shots. It will be MUCH less confusing. :groucho:

CJ,

I was 'speaking' hypothetically. I did not mean to imply that you actually 'said' to go 3 rails. I apologize if that is how I came across.

I understand the benefits of making the TOI ones predominant shot for its' potential & for the sake of consistancy. It is an awesome method.

But like many others, I just can not 'see' or understand shooting EVERY shot with it.

You have layed out your exceptions & I certainly understand them. I simply believe there are more exceptions & in watching every You Tube video available of you playing, which is not that many, I wish there were more, it appears that you apparently did so as well, at least in the past. However I might be wrong.

Obviously you are the most proficient in the TOI method & that may be the difference in my viewpoint. Perhaps if I become more proficient with it my eyes will see more of what you see, which is more opportunties to use the TOI over a simple outside english shot for position. For now I just dont 'see' it.

I have adopted the TOI based on only my one(1) 3.5 hour session & predict that I will be using it on about 75% or more of the shots that I will be shooting. If you or I can get that percentage up higher, the more the better.

Thanks again for all of your help, enlightenment, time & effort.

Best Regards,

PS Regarding the Mosconi Cup...Like Adrian said to Rocky...WIN!
Best of Luck. A little Good Luck never hurts, even if one does not really need it.

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

...

You are one amusing fellow :grin-square: oh yea, you can also stop letting us know you have been playing for 46 years. I think all of Az knows this by now lol just kidding

 

[ENGLISH!]

You are one amusing fellow :grin-square: oh yea, you can also stop letting us know you have been playing for 46 years. I think all of Az knows this by now lol just kidding

Glad to be of assistance.