you make the call! Foul or not

M

mikeiniowa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
if the distance between the OB And CB is a chalks width or less can the shooter ,strike the ball full and follow the cue ball 6-8 inches with a level stroke?

2.20 **** JUDGING DOUBLE HITS
When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube, (See Diagram 18) special attention from the referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul.
 
Certainly most of the time the cueball goes forward 6-8 inches it's a foul. But the answer to your question is yes, it can be done



mikeiniowa said:
if the distance between the OB And CB is a chalks width or less can the shooter ,strike the ball full and follow the cue ball 6-8 inches with a level stroke?

2.20 **** JUDGING DOUBLE HITS
When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube, (See Diagram 18) special attention from the referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul.
Click to expand...
 
OK, now I saw the discussion in the Des Moines thread. There's no "jack up" or chalk-width rule. That's just a guideline to help make the judgment. The judgment is still whether there's a double hit, not whether the cueball went forward such and such a distance.




mikeiniowa said:
if the distance between the OB And CB is a chalks width or less can the shooter ,strike the ball full and follow the cue ball 6-8 inches with a level stroke?

2.20 **** JUDGING DOUBLE HITS
When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube, (See Diagram 18) special attention from the referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul.
Click to expand...
 
Did the ref actually put a piece of chalk between the balls to measure it ?

How does anyone know for sure how far the ball were apart? Was some sort of measuring device used here?
 
Good posts from Mike Page and Neil! Jason, good point! But like Neil said, it is very obvious when you foul on that kind of shot!
 
It's just a guideline to help the ref out. It's the ref's judgment call no matter what. So it doesn't matter if the ref officially measured the distance to determine if it's 0.8 chalk widths or 1.2 chalk widths. The only purpose of the "chalk width" language is to give him a visual guideline to decide when he should use the half-ball-follow rule.

And even then he only applies if he can't see for sure if it was legal (even giving the shot "special attention").

If I'm asked to make a call, I look for telltale signs of a double hit... the one neil mentions is ideal - a double hit zips forward with no visual pause. There's also a distinct clacky sound, and usually you can tell by his line of aim if the CB will contact the OB and stun sideways away from the tip... or just stay more or less in place and get speared by the tip.

I don't like the chalk width thing or the half ball guideline. You can make a legal shot from close quarters where the cue ball goes forward a couple of ball widths and then hooks backward from draw. It's not commonly used but it's very possible and a completely legal shot. I also dislike the whole "you must elevate to 45 degrees or more when they're this close" type of rule. You can shoot legally without elevation if you're shooting away from the OB.

All in all, these rules and guidelines distract people from the whole point of the exercise, which is to figure out if the CB was struck twice. I hate to see anyone try to call some nitty foul on a perfectly legal shot because it violated something like the "chalk guideline". Meanwhile perfectly obvious double hits get overlooked.
 
If this is a league situation and it isn't in higher level play with a ref to watch the hit, you are essentially barking at the moon. Try calling it a double hit foul and a majority of league players are going to look at you like you are from Mars.

I've even gone so far as to describe what's happening (CB rebounds off the OB back to the tip) and still I get "I only hit it once"...

I even had an sl7 ask me why I was shooting a shot the way I did, because "they don't enforce the push shot double hit rule" I told him I knew it was a foul so I don't play that way.

These kinds of things have to be treated like water off of a duck's ass. Dwell on it and you're in for an arguement and ultimately frustration.

I play in the APA, and I will say that it was refreshing to see this rule enforced at nationals.


:cool:
 
I'd go along with Mike Page and Neil's assessment. The rule is only a guide to pay extra close attention. I can't agree with CreeDo's statment "You can make a legal shot from close quarters where the cue ball goes forward a couple of ball widths and then hooks backward from draw." though. I believe if you hit the cue with draw, it will immediately stop (without moving forward) and then draw backwards. A test for this theory is...try placing the cueball 12" from an object ball, hit with draw stroke and see if you can get the cue ball to slide forward that same "couple of ball widths"...it can't be done.

In the response to the OP question, I believe you can follow 6" with a level stroke if the balls are a chalks width apart if you utilize the explainations give above by Mike Page and Neil. If the balls are 1/8" apart, I'd probably be preparing myself to call a foul before the shot because I think that's too close for follow...but I'd make my call after the shot.

Think of it this way...your stroke on the cueball after contact with the cueball can only be equal to the distance between the cue and object ball. Because the cueball stops at impact (albeit ever so breifly, it does stop), if your stroke is longer that the distance between balls, you will absolutely hit the cueball again....double hit. So, can you control your stroke by 3/4" or 1/8"? That's the test.

First and foremost, if you aint there, you can't make the call. I wasn't there so don't ask me to make the call. All I'm saying is that it might be possible.

L8R...Ken
 
In a refereed match, the only thing that matters for that shot is the ref's call.

I keep thinking these new, better cell phone cameras could somehow help via instant replay (and a bunch of shouting, etc.). the shot could be posted here on a special thread and we could all have real-time fun making the call.

Jeff Livingston
 
if your cue happens to cross the edge of the table you can do a bit of a trick shot and follow as much as you want. Hold the cue such that your hand will strike the edge of the table at the same time as your tip strikes the cue ball. Your hand, being soft and fleshy, will still travel forward a bit, but not a chalk width. Hit it as hard as you can tolerate and you can get the same full follow you otherwise would (same trick works with draw as well). You can do the same thing even with much less space - of course it's going to hurt...

Andy Segal did this for one of his shots on trick shot magic once. He had a special glove though that was armored in some way to protect his hand.
 
juggler314 said:
if your cue happens to cross the edge of the table you can do a bit of a trick shot and follow as much as you want. Hold the cue such that your hand will strike the edge of the table at the same time as your tip strikes the cue ball. Your hand, being soft and fleshy, will still travel forward a bit, but not a chalk width. Hit it as hard as you can tolerate and you can get the same full follow you otherwise would (same trick works with draw as well). You can do the same thing even with much less space - of course it's going to hurt...

Andy Segal did this for one of his shots on trick shot magic once. He had a special glove though that was armored in some way to protect his hand.
Click to expand...

Its an old gaff. Line up the shot then straighten your index finger and slide it up to the edge of the table.
 
On board with those that say you can tell by the reaction of the cue after contact.....in closed quarters, I watch the cue after contact to determine the hit.....it always lets the cat out of the bag....
 
I think the rule is written pretty badly. Rules should not use the term MAY apply. That's just bad language and opening a discussion up for interpretation. Better way to shoot the shot is to either jack up or put the balls super close together and just shoot away from them, no gray area there. If it's questionable 10 guys might rule the same shot ten different ways so the right thing to do is take the questionable situation out of the scenario.
 
mikeyfrost said:
I think the rule is written pretty badly. Rules should not use the term MAY apply. That's just bad language and opening a discussion up for interpretation. Better way to shoot the shot is to either jack up or put the balls super close together and just shoot away from them, no gray area there. If it's questionable 10 guys might rule the same shot ten different ways so the right thing to do is take the questionable situation out of the scenario.
Click to expand...

It's not a rule, it's just a guideline. The rule says that we may not strike the cue ball more than once in a single stroke.

The answer to the original question in YES. Easy shot....SPF=randyg
 
mikeiniowa said:
if the distance between the OB And CB is a chalks width or less can the shooter ,strike the ball full and follow the cue ball 6-8 inches with a level stroke?

2.20 **** JUDGING DOUBLE HITS
When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube, (See Diagram 18) special attention from the referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul.
Click to expand...

If the cue travels 6-8 inches, then you will double-hit the cue ball and foul (although the APA allows it)...

I don't really like the APA rule (although I understand why they made it), so I will always jack up or shoot away from a ball to avoid a double hit.

Jeff<-----not great at the nip stroke, which can also be used to avoid a foul
 
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