you make the call! Foul or not

mikeiniowa said:
if the distance between the OB And CB is a chalks width or less can the shooter ,strike the ball full and follow the cue ball 6-8 inches with a level stroke?
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Easily. Even if the gap were much smaller, 6-8 inches of follow is possible. Here are some techniques that work:


Also, cue elevation, even a lot, doesn't guarantee a single hit, and a foul can still be called. For more info, see:


For more related videos and resources, see:


Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
Easily. Even if the gap were much smaller, 6-8 inches of follow is possible. Here are some techniques that work:


Also, cue elevation, even a lot, doesn't guarantee a single hit, and a foul can still be called. For more info, see:


For more related videos and resources, see:


Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

Anyone else besides me feel like they just learned like 5 new tricks after reading this post. Thanks Dr. Dave.
 
Big Dog said:
I believe this game should still be a gentlemen's game! I believe that if a ref makes a bad call you do the right thing. Like I said earlier, I would rather lose by being honest, than win that way. If you talk to the other guys on the team I play on, we would all do the right thing in that case. Would you sacrifice your morals over a game of pool? Pool is just a game, but situations like this show what kind of person you are in everyday life.
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If the ref is standing over the shot and I am in the chair. How is my view of the shot going to be better than the ref? He has angle and proximity to the play, I am sitting over in the corner. How am I going to be a better judge of whether or not a foul has occurred when I don't have the line of sight the ref does?

Seems to me you have a beef with Mike and are at this point just airing dirty laundry and attempting to impune someones reputation.

:cool:
 
This has got to be among the most talked about good hit / bad hit discussions in the history of AZ Billiards? Sorry Mikey, I've got a job and stuff and this is only like my 3rd post ever on az billiards but I admit it is quite amusing. I'll decline to tell you who I am because Im in the witness protection program (seriously) and I can't reveal my whereabouts. Plus I'm thinking about running for office someday and I don't want these posts to cost me athens vote. I can tell you this though, I saw you in Burlington a while back, St. Patricks day right? A couple of good points have been made regarding, Why would a player put himself in the position to make a bad hit with ball in hand? Simple answer: He didn't. A piece of chalk is 15/16 of an inch wide and athens keeps stating the "rule" which as it turns out isn't even a rule but a guideline to teach refs that don't know much how to judge a hit. Anyway, from where I was standing behind Whitey and Gary Lutman there had to be 11/2 to 2inches between the balls, which makes athens claim that it was a good call because of that guideline absolutely mute. I texted Whitey today and told him he's got to get on here and read this but he said he just doesn't care but he said he might check it out later. By the way, Lutman and Kitto said it was the worst call they'd ever seen in a tournament. I wish someone would just re-create the shot and put it on here? That shot looked nothing like a foul whatsoever, and Ed got straight in! How many times do you foul and come out perfect just like you intended? Duh, BTW, did you know Ed is an awesome 3 cushion player?
 
DelaWho??? said:
If the ref is standing over the shot and I am in the chair. How is my view of the shot going to be better than the ref? He has angle and proximity to the play, I am sitting over in the corner. How am I going to be a better judge of whether or not a foul has occurred when I don't have the line of sight the ref does?

Seems to me you have a beef with Mike and are at this point just airing dirty laundry and attempting to impune someones reputation.

:cool:
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Yeah, we have some dirty laundry, but that doesn't change anything...he still has no integrity! I have tried and tried to get him to play me some, as Mike Frost knows, and he won't play. He basically won't play anyone that he's not stealing from!! Anyway, to me it's not about our dirty laundry, it's about being honest! I would take Whitey Walker's word over Mike Athens any day!!
 
hijeep said:
This has got to be among the most talked about good hit / bad hit discussions in the history of AZ Billiards? Sorry Mikey, I've got a job and stuff and this is only like my 3rd post ever on az billiards but I admit it is quite amusing. I'll decline to tell you who I am because Im in the witness protection program (seriously) and I can't reveal my whereabouts. Plus I'm thinking about running for office someday and I don't want these posts to cost me athens vote. I can tell you this though, I saw you in Burlington a while back, St. Patricks day right? A couple of good points have been made regarding, Why would a player put himself in the position to make a bad hit with ball in hand? Simple answer: He didn't. A piece of chalk is 15/16 of an inch wide and athens keeps stating the "rule" which as it turns out isn't even a rule but a guideline to teach refs that don't know much how to judge a hit. Anyway, from where I was standing behind Whitey and Gary Lutman there had to be 11/2 to 2inches between the balls, which makes athens claim that it was a good call because of that guideline absolutely mute. I texted Whitey today and told him he's got to get on here and read this but he said he just doesn't care but he said he might check it out later. By the way, Lutman and Kitto said it was the worst call they'd ever seen in a tournament. I wish someone would just re-create the shot and put it on here? That shot looked nothing like a foul whatsoever, and Ed got straight in! How many times do you foul and come out perfect just like you intended? Duh, BTW, did you know Ed is an awesome 3 cushion player?
Click to expand...

Yes I was at Whitey's for St. Patty's day so that definitely narrows down who you could be. If I add that up with who I saw at the tournament I am guessing me and you had a conversation outside while I was smoking a cigarette, you were with another guy...am I correct? If so I see no need to say your name on here, Pretty sure I know who you are if I took 5 guesses. Welcome to AZ, you can't run for office and be in the witness protection program!!!
 
hijeep said:
This has got to be among the most talked about good hit / bad hit discussions in the history of AZ Billiards? Sorry Mikey, I've got a job and stuff and this is only like my 3rd post ever on az billiards but I admit it is quite amusing. I'll decline to tell you who I am because Im in the witness protection program (seriously) and I can't reveal my whereabouts. Plus I'm thinking about running for office someday and I don't want these posts to cost me athens vote. I can tell you this though, I saw you in Burlington a while back, St. Patricks day right? A couple of good points have been made regarding, Why would a player put himself in the position to make a bad hit with ball in hand? Simple answer: He didn't. A piece of chalk is 15/16 of an inch wide and athens keeps stating the "rule" which as it turns out isn't even a rule but a guideline to teach refs that don't know much how to judge a hit. Anyway, from where I was standing behind Whitey and Gary Lutman there had to be 11/2 to 2inches between the balls, which makes athens claim that it was a good call because of that guideline absolutely mute. I texted Whitey today and told him he's got to get on here and read this but he said he just doesn't care but he said he might check it out later. By the way, Lutman and Kitto said it was the worst call they'd ever seen in a tournament. I wish someone would just re-create the shot and put it on here? That shot looked nothing like a foul whatsoever, and Ed got straight in! How many times do you foul and come out perfect just like you intended? Duh, BTW, did you know Ed is an awesome 3 cushion player?
Click to expand...
Yeah, I told Whitey today about the May 1st tourney at Big Dog's too. I hope he comes up and sets things straight. Lutman and Kitto I think can tell the difference between what's a foul and what's not, along with the other 45 master players watching! This is fun isn't it? :)
 
hijeep said:
This has got to be among the most talked about good hit / bad hit discussions in the history of AZ Billiards? Sorry Mikey, I've got a job and stuff and this is only like my 3rd post ever on az billiards but I admit it is quite amusing. I'll decline to tell you who I am because Im in the witness protection program (seriously) and I can't reveal my whereabouts. Plus I'm thinking about running for office someday and I don't want these posts to cost me athens vote. I can tell you this though, I saw you in Burlington a while back, St. Patricks day right? A couple of good points have been made regarding, Why would a player put himself in the position to make a bad hit with ball in hand? Simple answer: He didn't. A piece of chalk is 15/16 of an inch wide and athens keeps stating the "rule" which as it turns out isn't even a rule but a guideline to teach refs that don't know much how to judge a hit. Anyway, from where I was standing behind Whitey and Gary Lutman there had to be 11/2 to 2inches between the balls, which makes athens claim that it was a good call because of that guideline absolutely mute. I texted Whitey today and told him he's got to get on here and read this but he said he just doesn't care but he said he might check it out later. By the way, Lutman and Kitto said it was the worst call they'd ever seen in a tournament. I wish someone would just re-create the shot and put it on here? That shot looked nothing like a foul whatsoever, and Ed got straight in! How many times do you foul and come out perfect just like you intended? Duh, BTW, did you know Ed is an awesome 3 cushion player?
Click to expand...


And I forgot, to those who were there, remember the cueball went down table to the second diamond on the end rail and then back up the the center of the table, (that's why I said it traveled 5 feet mike) straight in on the ball he needed to get shape on? What this means is: He gave himself a slight angle, hit the top of the cueball with a slightly downward stroke and gave the cueball a little jab stroke to put some high english on the ball and came out perfect! With the velocity of the stroke he put on the ball, had he hit it twice, I'd say it would be very obvious. Wouldn't you agree? I've got that shot stuck in my mind like it happened 10 seconds ago.
 
hijeep said:
This has got to be among the most talked about good hit / bad hit discussions in the history of AZ Billiards? Sorry Mikey, I've got a job and stuff and this is only like my 3rd post ever on az billiards but I admit it is quite amusing. I'll decline to tell you who I am because Im in the witness protection program (seriously) and I can't reveal my whereabouts. Plus I'm thinking about running for office someday and I don't want these posts to cost me athens vote. I can tell you this though, I saw you in Burlington a while back, St. Patricks day right? A couple of good points have been made regarding, Why would a player put himself in the position to make a bad hit with ball in hand? Simple answer: He didn't. A piece of chalk is 15/16 of an inch wide and athens keeps stating the "rule" which as it turns out isn't even a rule but a guideline to teach refs that don't know much how to judge a hit. Anyway, from where I was standing behind Whitey and Gary Lutman there had to be 11/2 to 2inches between the balls, which makes athens claim that it was a good call because of that guideline absolutely mute. I texted Whitey today and told him he's got to get on here and read this but he said he just doesn't care but he said he might check it out later. By the way, Lutman and Kitto said it was the worst call they'd ever seen in a tournament. I wish someone would just re-create the shot and put it on here? That shot looked nothing like a foul whatsoever, and Ed got straight in! How many times do you foul and come out perfect just like you intended? Duh, BTW, did you know Ed is an awesome 3 cushion player?
Click to expand...
There are lots of example small-gap shots in these videos:


Maybe you can find the shot most similar to the one you are talking about. That way, you have a visual (with super-slow-motion playback) to discuss.

Regards,
Dave
 
If he was a 3 cushion player, this might explain why he was comfortable shooting this shot with his ball in hand. Have you ever watched those guys? They can follow balls an eighth inch apart all around the table without fouling.

Ok, maybe thats just Siemi Sayginer.
 
mikeiniowa said:
... 2.20 **** JUDGING DOUBLE HITS
When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube ...
Click to expand...
This "rule" never was a rule. As stated above, it was a guideline to help relatively inexperienced referees. It is now gone. I think it was a mistake to ever put it with the rules.

Judging close hits is difficult. It takes a fair amount of experience with the shots. Most pool players and some referees are not familiar with how to judge the shots or how to shoot legal shots.

Here are the current rules.
 
mikeyfrost said:
Yes I was at Whitey's for St. Patty's day so that definitely narrows down who you could be. If I add that up with who I saw at the tournament I am guessing me and you had a conversation outside while I was smoking a cigarette, you were with another guy...am I correct? If so I see no need to say your name on here, Pretty sure I know who you are if I took 5 guesses. Welcome to AZ, you can't run for office and be in the witness protection program!!!
Click to expand...

I was the guy in the green shirt!
 
"oh yeah, and he froze the cue ball to the rail trying to give himself as much distance as possible and he used a level strike..
I am not sure you saw what really happened. You got all the details wrong except what happened after the shot.
it is amazing how many people say they saw it. Or have the most to say when it didn't involve them."

I have a lot to say and it did involve me. I am on the opposing team (the one that got shafted over the call) and we were all watching. It was for the winner of the winners bracket. No one wasn't paying close attention even if they were spectators. He did NOT shoot it level. It was a close hit so he had to elevate some to avoid the double hit. And no one else was within 12 ft? really? anyone reading this that has been to a state tourney anywhere (or ANY tourney) knows that they dont give you that much space between tables. 99% of the ppl wathing that shot knows it was good. The 1% exception is the ref (maybe, we all know he isnt going to back on his decision even if he knows it was wrong after the fact). Edwin knows it was good. Mike knows it was too. The entire gallery knows it was good ( I spoke with ppl from both sides, master players playing the gentlemans sport are friends with most). Sucks to lose on a bad call.

Matt Payne
 
major77 said:
"oh yeah, and he froze the cue ball to the rail trying to give himself as much distance as possible and he used a level strike..
I am not sure you saw what really happened. You got all the details wrong except what happened after the shot.
it is amazing how many people say they saw it. Or have the most to say when it didn't involve them."

I have a lot to say and it did involve me. I am on the opposing team (the one that got shafted over the call) and we were all watching. It was for the winner of the winners bracket. No one wasn't paying close attention even if they were spectators. He did NOT shoot it level. It was a close hit so he had to elevate some to avoid the double hit. And no one else was within 12 ft? really? anyone reading this that has been to a state tourney anywhere (or ANY tourney) knows that they dont give you that much space between tables. 99% of the ppl wathing that shot knows it was good. The 1% exception is the ref (maybe, we all know he isnt going to back on his decision even if he knows it was wrong after the fact). Edwin knows it was good. Mike knows it was too. The entire gallery knows it was good ( I spoke with ppl from both sides, master players playing the gentlemans sport are friends with most). Sucks to lose on a bad call.

Matt Payne
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Matt, as you can tell, I was and am on your side about that call. Read back a few pages and see what I mean. A real bad deal buddy!!!
 
major77 said:
"oh yeah, and he froze the cue ball to the rail trying to give himself as much distance as possible and he used a level strike..
I am not sure you saw what really happened. You got all the details wrong except what happened after the shot.
it is amazing how many people say they saw it. Or have the most to say when it didn't involve them."

I have a lot to say and it did involve me. I am on the opposing team (the one that got shafted over the call) and we were all watching. It was for the winner of the winners bracket. No one wasn't paying close attention even if they were spectators. He did NOT shoot it level. It was a close hit so he had to elevate some to avoid the double hit. And no one else was within 12 ft? really? anyone reading this that has been to a state tourney anywhere (or ANY tourney) knows that they dont give you that much space between tables. 99% of the ppl wathing that shot knows it was good. The 1% exception is the ref (maybe, we all know he isnt going to back on his decision even if he knows it was wrong after the fact). Edwin knows it was good. Mike knows it was too. The entire gallery knows it was good ( I spoke with ppl from both sides, master players playing the gentlemans sport are friends with most). Sucks to lose on a bad call.

Matt Payne
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Matt, first off congrats on finishing in 3rd place, I think you guys got 2nd or 3rd at Valley as well so you obviously have a great team. I have a couple questions for you though.

Whitey's version is a little skewed as well, wouldn't you agree? The truth most likely is somewhere between Athens and Whitey's story.

Do you feel like that single game is the reason your team finished 3rd place? If you would have won that game do you feel you would have won the tournament? Did that controversy carry over to the next day when you guys lost? Did you find that foul shot to be a rallying point for the team or an excuse to not play 100% for the rest of the tourney? I'd like to know how this really impacted your team.

If Whitey Walker was not involved do you think Athens would be taking nearly as much heat? Everyone loves Whitey, I think that tends to blow this out of proportion.

What would you have done in that situation? I also understand the ref picked up the ball off the table after he called foul, does that matter at all to you?

I talked to Whitey so I know how he feels about it. Just wondering a week later if things have calmed down or is it worse. You guys shot well and I don't think you have anything to be ashamed of at all.
 
Mikey...it was def a turning point in the match. Both teams were playing well and i believe it was tied 6-6 or 7-7..right around in there. After the call it was very tough to get refocused. You know pool being a mental game, getting your head back on straight after being on the short end of that was tough. We did have a team lull for sure.

One can never know if we would have won the whole thing or not if we win that round. I know we went from needing to win one match from the drivers seat to having to win 3 from the losers bracket. And when you get that late into the tourney its pretty much about who can get a good roll here and there and who is breaking better. Good break and you should be out. We lost our next match 13-10 as i recall.

I know Whitey is well liked by everyone but I do believe that the controversy would have been there against any player/team. Especially given the circumstances of where we were in the tourney.
It was strange to see the ref pick up the cue ball. I never seen a ref do that before. Maybe I have just never seen this particular ref call a foul. Had it been me I would have told my opponent i wasnt taking the call b/c it was a good hit and agreed between the two of us where the cue ball was.

I was happy with how we shot as a team overall and 3rd place is a good thing. Oh but what could have been! :)
 
major77 said:
Mikey...it was def a turning point in the match. Both teams were playing well and i believe it was tied 6-6 or 7-7..right around in there. After the call it was very tough to get refocused. You know pool being a mental game, getting your head back on straight after being on the short end of that was tough. We did have a team lull for sure.

One can never know if we would have won the whole thing or not if we win that round. I know we went from needing to win one match from the drivers seat to having to win 3 from the losers bracket. And when you get that late into the tourney its pretty much about who can get a good roll here and there and who is breaking better. Good break and you should be out. We lost our next match 13-10 as i recall.

I know Whitey is well liked by everyone but I do believe that the controversy would have been there against any player/team. Especially given the circumstances of where we were in the tourney.
It was strange to see the ref pick up the cue ball. I never seen a ref do that before. Maybe I have just never seen this particular ref call a foul. Had it been me I would have told my opponent i wasnt taking the call b/c it was a good hit and agreed between the two of us where the cue ball was.

I was happy with how we shot as a team overall and 3rd place is a good thing. Oh but what could have been! :)
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Right on, all you can do is get your weeks in during league and go for it next year. Check out those videos from Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett and see if that helps out at all. LOL I used to think I knew what a double hit looked like now I am convinced I have no clue at all!!!
 
The only reason this is being talked about is because what happened was wrong! We have a cheater and a cheated...
 
I have heard people say that its the players responsibility to pay attention and it is,but if I foul I will call it on myself,but I believe in carma .It is all about my game to me ,I dont know about others but god ,family and pool are my top 3 and I dont need to do that to win
 
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