Zero Head Movement

buddha162

buddha162

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've watched countless pro matches on youtube, and what stands out to me is just how much pros move while staying down on their shots. Efren, Earl, Johnny, Shane, Ko...they all seem to have a slight head/shoulder lunge at the end of their stroke that is built-in to their routine and (obviously) highly repeatable and not detrimental to their game.

However, a couple of players stand out for being absolutely, preternaturally still on almost all their shots: Kevin Cheng and Hunter Lombardo.

Here's a clip of Kevin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsndpZBzeso&list=PL7B_aulXoMBN-TIsCKIVd_1OPmkwFMiP1#t=683

Hunter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2shchSaRWQc#t=269

What are they doing differently? Is it stance, grip, a function of their body type/size?
 
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buddha162 said:
I've watched countless pro matches on youtube, and what stands out to me is just how much pros move while staying down on their shots. Efren, Earl, Johnny, Shane, Ko...they all seem to have a slight lunge at the end of their stroke that is built-in to their routine and (obviously) highly repeatable and not detrimental to their game.

However, a couple of players stand out for being absolutely, preternaturally still on almost all their shots: Kevin Cheng and Hunter Lombardo.

Here's a clip of Kevin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsndpZBzeso&list=PL7B_aulXoMBN-TIsCKIVd_1OPmkwFMiP1#t=683

Hunter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2shchSaRWQc#t=269

What are they doing differently? Is it stance, grip, a function of their body type/size?
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I might be off base, but I wonder if Kevin and Hunter had lessons early on? What Im getting at is people who learned how to play as kids mostly on their own often have fundamentals that go against the textbook recommendations, but theyve learned how to work with what they have. Where as a player who started out textbook instruction...... Etc.
Chuck
 
You got it right!

Chuck Fields said:
I might be off base, but I wonder if Kevin and Hunter had lessons early on? What Im getting at is people who learned how to play as kids mostly on their own often have fundamentals that go against the textbook recommendations, but theyve learned how to work with what they have. Where as a player who started out textbook instruction...... Etc.
Chuck
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If you are successful at what your doing, changing things are really hard.
 
King T said:
If you are successful at what your doing, changing things are really hard.
Click to expand...

Thats exactly what Im saying. Some of the best players in history did/do not have textbook fundamentals. But we are coming into a generation of players who fall into the era of instruction as opposed to the school of hard knocks and secretive info.
Im just speculating about possible reasoning, but it would be interesting to see if they did start off with or have formal instruction along the way.
Chuck
 
Every player has his own style of shooting, so as on body movement during the shots.

Alex often uses some "head english" on harder shots...

Thorsten often seems in a hurry and jumps up on his shots...

Efren looks like he would like to direct the object ball into the pocket while it's rolling...

From what I've been informed, Hunter often practiced with Joe Tucker, and he attaches some real importance to stay down and finish the stroke!
 
i never saw kevin cheng before, seems like a very solid player.

Chuck Fields said:
Thats exactly what Im saying. Some of the best players in history did/do not have textbook fundamentals. But we are coming into a generation of players who fall into the era of instruction as opposed to the school of hard knocks and secretive info.
Im just speculating about possible reasoning, but it would be interesting to see if they did start off with or have formal instruction along the way.
Chuck
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sounds plausible. if you watch the snooker players of the last 30 years they have very good fundamentals all of them, but among the self-taught guys before them (and before the snooker academies) you could find players like alex higgins and dennis taylor who did have head movement. you'll never see that in a young pro of today
 
buddha162 said:
I've watched countless pro matches on youtube, and what stands out to me is just how much pros move while staying down on their shots. Efren, Earl, Johnny, Shane, Ko...they all seem to have a slight head/shoulder lunge at the end of their stroke that is built-in to their routine and (obviously) highly repeatable and not detrimental to their game.

However, a couple of players stand out for being absolutely, preternaturally still on almost all their shots: Kevin Cheng and Hunter Lombardo.

Here's a clip of Kevin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsndpZBzeso&list=PL7B_aulXoMBN-TIsCKIVd_1OPmkwFMiP1#t=683

Hunter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2shchSaRWQc#t=269

What are they doing differently? Is it stance, grip, a function of their body type/size?
Click to expand...

They lift their head after the follow through of which has no effect on the shot. It appears as if they did before they shot, but that is not the case. For snooker it is more critical.

See Kieth McCready, he jumps, but after the follow through..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsHAG8YrXG8
 
All the great players with head movement play(ed) well despite of it, not because of it.

If those same players learned to keep still on every shot, I think they would have been a little better. Maybe not much, but it would be noticeable. Champions are still champions.
 
Can anyone venture a guess as to why Hunter/Kevin is able to remain so still before and after the shot? I notice that Hunter almost never drops his elbow, while Kevin does. They do have a similar stance, ie back leg locked/front bent.

I agree with everyone that the movement we do see from top pros occur after the CB is gone.
 
buddha162 said:
Can anyone venture a guess as to why Hunter/Kevin is able to remain so still before and after the shot? I notice that Hunter almost never drops his elbow, while Kevin does. They do have a similar stance, ie back leg locked/front bent.

I agree with everyone that the movement we do see from top pros occur after the CB is gone.
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Why he is able to? Simply because he chooses to.
 
naji said:
They lift their head after the follow through of which has no effect on the shot. It appears as if they did before they shot, but that is not the case. For snooker it is more critical.

See Kieth McCready, he jumps, but after the follow through..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsHAG8YrXG8
Click to expand...

So you summed up the whole matter in 4 lines? Impressive.

Many pros raise their heads on the delivery stroke and before the moment of impact.
 
If you have to think about what you are doing, before you shoot, you are going to fail. Your mind is going to start wandering about and you will only be thinking of your 30 step pre-shot routine, all the while your opponent is running out the set.

Efren doesn't have a bicycle stroke, because it's some magical routine, it's how he's played for the past 40 years. Practice makes perfect, even if the Brits think we look stupid doing it.
 
The pros that keep their heads extremely still throughout the stroke are the pros that have trained themselves to keep their heads extremely still throughout the stroke. There's no stance or cue action that lends itself more or less to keeping the head still, it's just about training yourself to do it.

I believe it's best not to move the head, but clearly it's not an absolute requirement to play at the highest levels; there are many examples of top pros in pool and even snooker that don't keep the head totally still.

-Andrew
 
Andrew Manning said:
The pros that keep their heads extremely still throughout the stroke are the pros that have trained themselves to keep their heads extremely still throughout the stroke. There's no stance or cue action that lends itself more or less to keeping the head still, it's just about training yourself to do it.

I believe it's best not to move the head, but clearly it's not an absolute requirement to play at the highest levels; there are many examples of top pros in pool and even snooker that don't keep the head totally still.

-Andrew
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I do think there are some stroking methods that almost encourage you to lift your head. For instance, if you always have your chin on the cue and you don't drop your elbow on the follow through or you don't drop it until way after cue ball contact you are pretty much forced to lift your head. If you do this long enough -- I'm sure this creeping up on the shot will become second nature.

This could have some influence on the stillness that buddha162 is pointing out.
 
Most pros are reasonably still during their shot. A little twitch here or there, but for the most part they are still.

It's interesting, however, to see how many times (often) they'll miss a shot and the culprit was because they jumped up on the shot. Surprisingly, Efren seems to do it most often.
 
That Kevin is a machine, he plays like a robot. Wish pool was as big here as it is there. These guys have spent many hours honing their fundamentals. I don't think the lack of head movement was any kind of accident. Very disciplined player.
 
Different strokes

There are many different styles among the really good shooters. So it shows there are basic fundamentals that most use and then they adapt it to their style of play. I think we all do it a bit different. I think Bustamante has a really unique style of shooting.
 
skogstokig said:
i never saw kevin cheng before, seems like a very solid player.



sounds plausible. if you watch the snooker players of the last 30 years they have very good fundamentals all of them, but among the self-taught guys before them (and before the snooker academies) you could find players like alex higgins and dennis taylor who did have head movement. you'll never see that in a young pro of today
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Not ALL of them...Mark Selby sways back and forth like a willow before he pulls the trigger. It's almost like he's doing it on purpose for some reason.
 
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