Is Mike Sigel the best ever?

[cardiac kid]

Hi Folks,

Someone should research Pat Howey (poolshark52). In the thirty plus years I've known him, he's run over 200 on me multiple times. He is a contemporary of Mike Sigel and Larry Hubbart here in Rochester. Irving Crane and Babe Cranfield taught him the game. I know some of you know him well. Whatever success I've had in the game of 14.1 can be credited to his instruction.

Lyn

 

[philw]

I have had the privlidge to watch and play the best players in the last 45 years. Lassiter,Crane,Kelly,Sigel,Hall,Reyes,Hopkins,,Varner,Parica,Strickland,Archer, but never played or watched Worst play. I have often heard that Worst was the best ever and he may have been ,but I can only grade the players that i've played or watched through the years.

Neither Lassiter nor Crane played one pocket,but they excelled in all the other games. Crane played great 9 ball but he couldn't break the balls,that in addition to not playing one pocket takes him out of the running.Plus I never saw either of them play banks.Kelly played all games at the highest level,definetly a contender.

Sigel and Hall ruled in the 80's. That duo was very special ,bringing us the best 9 ball battles ever,but Sigel played all games at the highest level..Varner made his presence felt in the late 80'sthrough the 90's and he was a terror,plus he played all games and played them great.Reyes joined these players also in the late 80's,and he has proven that he plays all games great,all games,Hopkins played close to those four but was not quite at their level. It's very hard to include Strickland with these players because he only played 9 ball,but he could be the best 9 ball player in the lot,could be.Parica also only played 9 ball,but did learn one pocket later but I can't put him in the running of the best ever. Then came Archer,he has proven he can play 9 ball with the best and a little straight pool to,but falls behind in all other games.

Here are my top 5 best players in the last 45 years
#1--Reyes
#2--Sigel
#3--Kelly
#4--Varner
#5--Hall

Bill, ESPN classic just showed a tape in the past week of Lassiter playing Boston Shorty in a One Pocket Championship Final which Luther won. I'm confused, What do you mean Lassiter didn't play onepocket? Philw

 

[Blackjack]

Hi Folks,

Someone should research Pat Howey (poolshark52). In the thirty plus years I've known him, he's run over 200 on me multiple times. He is a contemporary of Mike Sigel and Larry Hubbart here in Rochester. Irving Crane and Babe Cranfield taught him the game. I know some of you know him well. Whatever success I've had in the game of 14.1 can be credited to his instruction.

Lyn

Tap Tap Tap.

Great post, Lyn. Pat is one of my heroes in pool and in life. A real class act. Like I keep saying, there is something in the water up there in Rochester.

 

[The Saw]

A fellow who ran over 300 who is not on your list is Leil Gay, but I don't know the exact ball count.

Around 1997 or so JR posted a 330 ball run. He would run 200 as practice and get there the better part of the time. During a tourney at Cornfed's, I personally seen him run 200+ four different times (practicing) in one afternoon/evening, on a tough GC with old cloth... JR knows all the finer details of 14.1 better than anyone I've ever been around.

Saw

 

[wincardona]

lets get real

Keith was a great 9 baller and he may of beaten Sigel on the bar box,I wouldn't be surprised if he did.Keith was capable of beating anyone on any table because he shot straighter than everyone.But day in and day out Sigel was the most solid player in the world all through the 80's,barr none. Sigel was really never a money player but he played so good that when he did play for money he still won 90% of the time.There is no one in pool that has a winning record against Sigel,and you can ask players like Varner,Hopkins,Rempe,and Reyes what they think of Sigel and they will all agree that he's the hardest player in the world to beat,now that's a pretty strong endorsement.I love pool and I love watching the best players play and to me the best player i've ever seen playing 9 ball is Mike Sigel. Sigel has winning records against Varner,Hopkins,Strickland,Rempe,Reyes,Parica,and whoever else crossed his path in the 80's,and if you can find anyone that has a winning record against Sigel I would like to know who,because I surely snoozed that one,but I doubt it.Now we can go back and forth endlessly comparing players based on assumption,but Sigel's record speaks volumes,so lets get real and give him the respect that he earned.

 

[RunoutalloverU]

Keith was a great 9 baller and he may of beaten Sigel on the bar box,I wouldn't be surprised if he did.Keith was capable of beating anyone on any table because he shot straighter than everyone.But day in and day out Sigel was the most solid player in the world all through the 80's,barr none. Sigel was really never a money player but he played so good that when he did play for money he still won 90% of the time.There is no one in pool that has a winning record against Sigel,and you can ask players like Varner,Hopkins,Rempe,and Reyes what they think of Sigel and they will all agree that he's the hardest player in the world to beat,now that's a pretty strong endorsement.I love pool and I love watching the best players play and to me the best player i've ever seen playing 9 ball is Mike Sigel. Sigel has winning records against Varner,Hopkins,Strickland,Rempe,Reyes,Parica,and whoever else crossed his path in the 80's,and if you can find anyone that has a winning record against Sigel I would like to know who,because I surely snoozed that one,but I doubt it.Now we can go back and forth endlessly comparing players based on assumption,but Sigel's record speaks volumes,so lets get real and give him the respect that he earned.

Nuff' Said.

 

[jay helfert]

A fellow who ran over 300 who is not on your list is Leil Gay, but I don't know the exact ball count.

If I remember correctly, Gerda Hofstatter ran a 106 playing in a league match in NYC in 2002.

Lou Butera is notably missing from the list. Dick Lane used to practice 14.1 by playing 100 no-count, and probably ran over 100 every day of the week. Rempe rained centuries, as well. And Joe Balsis and Jimmy Caras played better 14.1 than all of them, yet they are not on the list.

For those unfamiliar, Min Wai Chin is a Taiwanese player who finshed second to Ralf Souquet in the 2000 BCA World Straight Pool Championsips at the Roseland in NYC.

I recall a practice run of 98 by top female pro Billie Billing in about 1980, but don't know if she ever ran 100.

Carlos Viera, whom I believe to be from Massachussetts, has run over 200 on more than one occasion, but I don't know the ball count.

Last but not least, I can confirm Jeanette Lee's 152, as she ran them playing against me!

Thanks for this Stu. In his prime, Butera was running more balls than anyone! He had an open challenge to play anyone a long match, like 1,000 to 2,000 points. Even Mizerak didn't want any. I believe Caras used to list a run of over 300 on his poster.

Oh and one last thing. My condolences to you for being Jeanette's rack boy.

 

[jay helfert]

Bill, ESPN classic just showed a tape in the past week of Lassiter playing Boston Shorty in a One Pocket Championship Final which Luther won. I'm confused, What do you mean Lassiter didn't play onepocket? Philw

It's true, One Pocket was his least favorite game. He had to play it at Johnston City and the Stardust, so he did. But he never gambled at One Pocket, and would have certainly been an underdog against guys like Shorty, both Reds, Kelly and Ronnie.

He just happened to be an exceptional pool player (the Sigel of his era), and rarely missed a ball. So that made him dangerous at any game.

 

[Blackjack]

I was wondering of there was any information on the high runs of the following players -

Tom Jennings
Gregg Fixx
Dave Bollman
Marshall Boelter
Andy Tennent
Tom Kollins
Bill Staton

 

[metallicane]

Keith was a great 9 baller and he may of beaten Sigel on the bar box,I wouldn't be surprised if he did.Keith was capable of beating anyone on any table because he shot straighter than everyone.But day in and day out Sigel was the most solid player in the world all through the 80's,barr none. Sigel was really never a money player but he played so good that when he did play for money he still won 90% of the time.There is no one in pool that has a winning record against Sigel,and you can ask players like Varner,Hopkins,Rempe,and Reyes what they think of Sigel and they will all agree that he's the hardest player in the world to beat,now that's a pretty strong endorsement.I love pool and I love watching the best players play and to me the best player i've ever seen playing 9 ball is Mike Sigel. Sigel has winning records against Varner,Hopkins,Strickland,Rempe,Reyes,Parica,and whoever else crossed his path in the 80's,and if you can find anyone that has a winning record against Sigel I would like to know who,because I surely snoozed that one,but I doubt it.Now we can go back and forth endlessly comparing players based on assumption,but Sigel's record speaks volumes,so lets get real and give him the respect that he earned.

+1........

 

[jay helfert]

Keith was a great 9 baller and he may of beaten Sigel on the bar box,I wouldn't be surprised if he did.Keith was capable of beating anyone on any table because he shot straighter than everyone.But day in and day out Sigel was the most solid player in the world all through the 80's,barr none. Sigel was really never a money player but he played so good that when he did play for money he still won 90% of the time.There is no one in pool that has a winning record against Sigel,and you can ask players like Varner,Hopkins,Rempe,and Reyes what they think of Sigel and they will all agree that he's the hardest player in the world to beat,now that's a pretty strong endorsement.I love pool and I love watching the best players play and to me the best player i've ever seen playing 9 ball is Mike Sigel. Sigel has winning records against Varner,Hopkins,Strickland,Rempe,Reyes,Parica,and whoever else crossed his path in the 80's,and if you can find anyone that has a winning record against Sigel I would like to know who,because I surely snoozed that one,but I doubt it.Now we can go back and forth endlessly comparing players based on assumption,but Sigel's record speaks volumes,so lets get real and give him the respect that he earned.

Billy, I have one question for you. Who has a winning record against you gambling? Other than me.

 

[metallicane]

Can anybody shed some light on why Mike S quit pool early? I don't buy the "getting bored at pool" excuse... Who the heck gets bored playing pool at that level, especially with the new wave of players coming out and posting new challenges? Sigel may have played better than anybody during his prime/time, but seems like he wasn't up for the challenge when the new guys stepped in the ring..JMO

I mentioned this on a thread a while ago, but I asked Mike why he quit and he told me the pressure was so great win and the money was so bad if you didn't, that he had to quit to make money. He made a bunch of money with those mass produced cues sold in Asia and, contrary to the massive public opinion here, made a pretty good custom cue as well. He said that if finishing in the top 10 paid anything like in golf, he would never have quit playing. So basically he quit because the pressure to win was so great and the prize just not big enough.

 

[vagabond]

pretty long ass way to make my point i know, but i lost again tonight and i'm hurting. :S

very goog point.

 

[wincardona]

1971-72-73

Billy, I have one question for you. Who has a winning record against you gambling? Other than me.

Jay. From 1971 untill midway into 1973 I was the best 9 baller in the country. I beat every one I played for money except Hall. I was laying dead in Det. for over a month and Mataya asked me to take a road trip,I agreed and we started and ended up in Shreveport. Mataya beat Eddie Burton out of $2,000 with Red Box staking Burton.Red backed up and said that he would stake Buddy against Mataya,I said that I would play Buddy and Buddy said no he wanted to play Mataya. They played and we lost the $2,000 back and quit. After Buddy beat Mataya I asked him again if he wanted to play. (mistake) Buddy agreed to play and proceeded to shoot holes in me.I really mismanaged myself on that short road trip because Shreveport should of been our last stop not our first,giving me a chance to get rid of the rust that had built up through my inactivity in Det.When I look back at that trip I laugh to myself because that was the most foolish decision I ever made in pool period,thinking I could beat Buddy in Shreveport totally unprepared.Chances are even if I was playing my best game beating Buddy on his home table would of been an incredible feat. I only lost twice in that span 1971-1973 the other time was to Jimmy Reid,and at that time I was playing my best but Jimmy hit a gear on me that was unreal and he sustained it for over 30 hrs.At that time I beat everyone I played Cole,Florence,Allen,Mataya,Crane,Lisciotti,and every one else I played. Wait there was one more guy that beat me ,but it was right before I was beating everyone his name was Bernie Schwartz.I grew up in the same city( Pittsburgh Pa.)as Schwartz and Marino. I was able to beat Marino but not Schwartz. And when we speak about great 9 ballers Schwartz's name is very rarely mentioned,and he could of been the best player.From 1968 through 1971 he beat everyone he played everyone, Allen,Hubbard,Toby Sweet,Ambrose,Florence,Kelly,Marino,Incardona,Stevens,Cleo Vaughn in Mobile,Mizerak,and every one else he played,and if there is anyone that beat him I don't know who. Back to my drum,I quit playing in 1973 I didn,t like the economics of the game and I was taking pills and wanted to take some time off ,and I did,six years.I quit playing in the prime of my life,and when I came back there was always something missing,Inever regained the form that I once had.
Jay, that's my story and i'm in semi retirement now,semi,untill I get a game I can't refuse.

 

[Blackjack]

Jay. From 1971 untill midway into 1973 I was the best 9 baller in the country. I beat every one I played for money except Hall. I was laying dead in Det. for over a month and Mataya asked me to take a road trip,I agreed and we started and ended up in Shreveport. Mataya beat Eddie Burton out of $2,000 with Red Box staking Burton.Red backed up and said that he would stake Buddy against Mataya,I said that I would play Buddy and Buddy said no he wanted to play Mataya. They played and we lost the $2,000 back and quit. After Buddy beat Mataya I asked him again if he wanted to play. (mistake) Buddy agreed to play and proceeded to shoot holes in me.I really mismanaged myself on that short road trip because Shreveport should of been our last stop not our first,giving me a chance to get rid of the rust that had built up through my inactivity in Det.When I look back at that trip I laugh to myself because that was the most foolish decision I ever made in pool period,thinking I could beat Buddy in Shreveport totally unprepared.Chances are even if I was playing my best game beating Buddy on his home table would of been an incredible feat. I only lost twice in that span 1971-1973 the other time was to Jimmy Reid,and at that time I was playing my best but Jimmy hit a gear on me that was unreal and he sustained it for over 30 hrs.At that time I beat everyone I played Cole,Florence,Allen,Mataya,Crane,Lisciotti,and every one else I played. Wait there was one more guy that beat me ,but it was right before I was beating everyone his name was Bernie Schwartz.I grew up in the same city( Pittsburgh Pa.)as Schwartz and Marino. I was able to beat Marino but not Schwartz. And when we speak about great 9 ballers Schwartz's name is very rarely mentioned,and he could of been the best player.From 1968 through 1971 he beat everyone he played everyone, Allen,Hubbard,Toby Sweet,Ambrose,Florence,Kelly,Marino,Incardona,Stevens,Cleo Vaughn in Mobile,Mizerak,and every one else he played,and if there is anyone that beat him I don't know who. Back to my drum,I quit playing in 1973 I didn,t like the economics of the game and I was taking pills and wanted to take some time off ,and I did,six years.I quit playing in the prime of my life,and when I came back there was always something missing,Inever regained the form that I once had.
Jay, that's my story and i'm in semi retirement now,semi,untill I get a game I can't refuse.

Billy

How did you match up against Mike Carella? Did you ever play Mike for the cash, or did he hit his stride after you quit back in 1973?

 

[wincardona]

Billy

How did you match up against Mike Carella? Did you ever play Mike for the cash, or did he hit his stride after you quit back in 1973?

Yes I had the misfortune of playing Carella when I came out of retirement and he was playing great, it was in Dayton Ohio at Joe Burns tournament.At that time Carella was playing the best onepocket in the country and only a hanful could of beat him playing 9 ball and I wasn't one of them. I knew I was in trouble when Hubbard wanted to bet against me.That was around 1980,i'm not very good remembering years they all seem to run together,79,83.80.84,if you know what I mean.

 

[sjm]

I was wondering of there was any information on the high runs of the following players -

Tom Jennings
Gregg Fixx
Dave Bollman
Marshall Boelter
Andy Tennent
Tom Kollins
Bill Staton

Nice list, Dave. Jennings, a math professor in New Jersey, was a total world beater. I saw him play a few times in the late 70's.

Others who surely have high runs that I haven't heard mention of to this point are Eddie Kelly and Harold Worst. Anybody?

 

[jay helfert]

Jay. From 1971 untill midway into 1973 I was the best 9 baller in the country. I beat every one I played for money except Hall. I was laying dead in Det. for over a month and Mataya asked me to take a road trip,I agreed and we started and ended up in Shreveport. Mataya beat Eddie Burton out of $2,000 with Red Box staking Burton.Red backed up and said that he would stake Buddy against Mataya,I said that I would play Buddy and Buddy said no he wanted to play Mataya. They played and we lost the $2,000 back and quit. After Buddy beat Mataya I asked him again if he wanted to play. (mistake) Buddy agreed to play and proceeded to shoot holes in me.I really mismanaged myself on that short road trip because Shreveport should of been our last stop not our first,giving me a chance to get rid of the rust that had built up through my inactivity in Det.When I look back at that trip I laugh to myself because that was the most foolish decision I ever made in pool period,thinking I could beat Buddy in Shreveport totally unprepared.Chances are even if I was playing my best game beating Buddy on his home table would of been an incredible feat. I only lost twice in that span 1971-1973 the other time was to Jimmy Reid,and at that time I was playing my best but Jimmy hit a gear on me that was unreal and he sustained it for over 30 hrs.At that time I beat everyone I played Cole,Florence,Allen,Mataya,Crane,Lisciotti,and every one else I played. Wait there was one more guy that beat me ,but it was right before I was beating everyone his name was Bernie Schwartz.I grew up in the same city( Pittsburgh Pa.)as Schwartz and Marino. I was able to beat Marino but not Schwartz. And when we speak about great 9 ballers Schwartz's name is very rarely mentioned,and he could of been the best player.From 1968 through 1971 he beat everyone he played everyone, Allen,Hubbard,Toby Sweet,Ambrose,Florence,Kelly,Marino,Incardona,Stevens,Cleo Vaughn in Mobile,Mizerak,and every one else he played,and if there is anyone that beat him I don't know who. Back to my drum,I quit playing in 1973 I didn,t like the economics of the game and I was taking pills and wanted to take some time off ,and I did,six years.I quit playing in the prime of my life,and when I came back there was always something missing,Inever regained the form that I once had.
Jay, that's my story and i'm in semi retirement now,semi,untill I get a game I can't refuse.

Thanks Billy! Yes, Bernie Schwartz was the real deal. I saw him beat Wade Crane and Richie on back to back days at the Stardust. I think it was the same year Tooth trapped you into giving him the six ball and you charged him 25K. I sat right there all night betting anywhere from 40 to 100 a game on you. I won about 800 on the side, thank you. That was as good as I had ever seen anyone shoot 9-Ball. I'll never forget how Tooth kept pushing out for long rail banks and you kept firing them in. Sweet!

I was more referring to when you returned to pool in your second incarnation as a One Pocket player. Every money game I saw you in, or heard about for the the next 20 years had you coming out on top. Am I wrong or did I miss something? You also did okay making book at all those tournaments. Although you did see fit to cancel my action TWICE (in Kentucky and Chicago)! You should have given me a cut for helping you make the lines.

Bottom line, don't ever think that Cardone was not a great player. He was and I saw it first hand. You had more heart and muscle than anyone else. And nothing seemed to bother you. You would dig in your heels and just play forever. Not many who could do that. I could name them on one hand. When Jimmy beat you, he had lots of help, and you know it. I helped him get the juice more than once. But I love Jimmy to this day. I wish he would recover. What a handsome devil he was, the girls would melt when he came in the room. Jimmy and Louie got 'em all! I was so jealous.

I'm glad you're playing again. You've got a few good games left in you. You're gonna be like Cokes, playing all the young guns when your 75.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Nice list, Dave. Jennings, a math professor in New Jersey, was a total world beater. I saw him play a few times in the late 70's.

Others who surely have high runs that I haven't heard mention of to this point are Eddie Kelly and Harold Worst. Anybody?

Ed Kelly's HR is 229.
Weenie Beanie's was 242.
Don Willis 281
Frank McGown 288
Erwin Rudolph 283
Andrew Ponzi 284
Jose Parica 189
Pat Feming 209
Evgeny Stalev 150
Bobby Hunter 225
Troy Frank 130
Joey Korsiak 146
Alex Lely 272
Jimmy Marino 267
Howie Pearl 169
George Rood 280
David Howard 87
George SanSouci 252
Tony Robles 267
Neils Feijen 259
Nick VanDeBerg 257
Konstantin Zolotikov 127
Mike Massey 224

SJM, here's one that really shocked me, how about you? The great Alfredo DeOro's all time high run was only 81!

 

[dirtypool40]

I'm hesitant to post after Mr. Incaronda's.

It seems odd to me that so many are leaving Parica out. A few years ago I remember him being referred to as the best all around player EVER, kind of the quiet, solid, beat ANYONE from ANY ERA at ANY GAME.

I guess under further track record and analysis it didn't prove true.

I remember reading in the same magazine that talked about Archer's 14 racks against Bustemante, at the same tournament Parica walked into the action room and let it be known that anyone except Archer could have the eight.

They tell stories about Siegel back in his road days where he would have to give up a spot AND play righty, to road players and semi-pros.