Is Mike Sigel the best ever?

Terry Ardeno said:
SJM, here's one that really shocked me, how about you? The great Alfredo DeOro's all time high run was only 81!
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Whoa! This was considered a big-time run in those days. Remember, the game was on 5 X 10 tables with tough, and sometimes bad, pockets. Also, Alfredo was in his fifties when the 14.1 rules were changed to the modern format.

Very few people had 100 ball runs on those old 5 X 10's.
 
One thing I get out of reading this thread is that the highest level pool is sometimes a gear that doesn't last long. Different players hit their highest gear, are able to beat everyone, and then their time is over and the mantle passes to another player.

My question is, of the players who hit this peak, the top of the pool playing mountain so to speak, who sat on the top of the mountain the longest? In gambling, was it Buddy Hall? Did Sigel sit on the top of the tournament mountain the longest?
 
uwate said:
One thing I get out of reading this thread is that the highest level pool is sometimes a gear that doesn't last long. Different players hit their highest gear, are able to beat everyone, and then their time is over and the mantle passes to another player.

My question is, of the players who hit this peak, the top of the pool playing mountain so to speak, who sat on the top of the mountain the longest? In gambling, was it Buddy Hall? Did Sigel sit on the top of the tournament mountain the longest?
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very good point.

it just shows that all the super players could play at more or less the same speed at one point - distinguishing real differences between their levels of play is tough. I mean, for starters, take Sigel, Earl, and Buddy. All at their best. We all have our favourites no doubt, but really could anybody honestly say for certain who played 9-ball the best? They all play(ed) so good, there really isn't a lot between them.
 
wincardona said:
Jay. From 1971 untill midway into 1973 I was the best 9 baller in the country. I beat every one I played for money except Hall. I was laying dead in Det. for over a month and Mataya asked me to take a road trip,I agreed and we started and ended up in Shreveport. Mataya beat Eddie Burton out of $2,000 with Red Box staking Burton.Red backed up and said that he would stake Buddy against Mataya,I said that I would play Buddy and Buddy said no he wanted to play Mataya. They played and we lost the $2,000 back and quit. After Buddy beat Mataya I asked him again if he wanted to play. (mistake) Buddy agreed to play and proceeded to shoot holes in me.I really mismanaged myself on that short road trip because Shreveport should of been our last stop not our first,giving me a chance to get rid of the rust that had built up through my inactivity in Det.When I look back at that trip I laugh to myself because that was the most foolish decision I ever made in pool period,thinking I could beat Buddy in Shreveport totally unprepared.Chances are even if I was playing my best game beating Buddy on his home table would of been an incredible feat. I only lost twice in that span 1971-1973 the other time was to Jimmy Reid,and at that time I was playing my best but Jimmy hit a gear on me that was unreal and he sustained it for over 30 hrs.At that time I beat everyone I played Cole,Florence,Allen,Mataya,Crane,Lisciotti,and every one else I played. Wait there was one more guy that beat me ,but it was right before I was beating everyone his name was Bernie Schwartz.I grew up in the same city( Pittsburgh Pa.)as Schwartz and Marino. I was able to beat Marino but not Schwartz. And when we speak about great 9 ballers Schwartz's name is very rarely mentioned,and he could of been the best player.From 1968 through 1971 he beat everyone he played everyone, Allen,Hubbard,Toby Sweet,Ambrose,Florence,Kelly,Marino,Incardona,Stevens,Cleo Vaughn in Mobile,Mizerak,and every one else he played,and if there is anyone that beat him I don't know who. Back to my drum,I quit playing in 1973 I didn,t like the economics of the game and I was taking pills and wanted to take some time off ,and I did,six years.I quit playing in the prime of my life,and when I came back there was always something missing,Inever regained the form that I once had.
Jay, that's my story and i'm in semi retirement now,semi,untill I get a game I can't refuse.
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You mentioned Crane and I was curious to hear more of how he was as a gambler.I heard him and Cisero used to matchup with Irving getting the cash,he also went to JC too.
 
> In all the time I've been around pool,I've only thought ONE player was the best in the world,and that was Mike. But,I have shifted my position somewhat.

I wasn't around to see what Buddy's Shreveport gear looked like,but the story Tom Ferry told here back in the day sticks out in my mind the most. Sigel and Larry Hubbart came thru St. Louis and busted the whole town,pumping up to go play Buddy. A couple days later,Tom called to see how it was going,and Hubbart got on the phone.

He said that Mike was playing the best pool of his life and hadn't missed a single ball for going on 9 hours,his only mistake was leaving Buddy a makeable shot on a roll-out. Tom asked how they stood,and Hubbart said "we're 4 games STUCK :eek:. If his gear was high enough that he had Mike stuck when he's playing perfect,I think he can be entered into the equation of who's the best ever,at least for the cash. I wish I could have seen it.

As far as players I got to actually see,maybe Earl was the best PURE 9-baller,with his break his break-and-run percentage might have been higher,but he still missed more balls than Mike,as well as mistakes with the cue ball and tactical errors.

People can say what they want about Efren,and while he has been dominant for a long time let's face it,he used to wilt in the finals of big events here in America,particulary against Mike,Earl,and Johnny. Mike never did,posting the best win-loss record of any player in the finals,maybe ever.

Playing the so-called American games,no one has ever played them as well as Mike,just my opinion. Tommy D.
 
Terry Ardeno said:
SJM, here's one that really shocked me, how about you? The great Alfredo DeOro's all time high run was only 81!
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Wow, Terry. Didn't DeOro play a game called continuous pool, a forerunner of straight pool? That might explain it. Perhaps he only played straight pool late in his career.
 
uwate said:
One thing I get out of reading this thread is that the highest level pool is sometimes a gear that doesn't last long. Different players hit their highest gear, are able to beat everyone, and then their time is over and the mantle passes to another player.

My question is, of the players who hit this peak, the top of the pool playing mountain so to speak, who sat on the top of the mountain the longest? In gambling, was it Buddy Hall? Did Sigel sit on the top of the tournament mountain the longest?
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Buddy in 9-Ball. Ronnie and Efren in One Pocket.
 
Fast Lenny said:
You mentioned Crane and I was curious to hear more of how he was as a gambler.I heard him and Cisero used to matchup with Irving getting the cash,he also went to JC too.
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He is referring to Wade Crane here.
 
What did The Miz say about this?

Matt_24 said:
In an Accu-stats video the commentator asked Efren, "Who is your favorite player?".

Efren replied, "Mike Sigel (pronounced Seeee-gawl, LOL). He just run-out, run-out, run-out."
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Just Google the terms "Charlie Rose Mike Sigel" and you'll see a 20 minute interview between Charlie Rose with Steve Mizerak, Mike Sigel, Jeanne Balukas and Fran Crimi.

When asked about this same question, Steve Mizerak said he thought that Mike Sigel was the greatest 9-ball player. Go check out this video online.
 
Fast Lenny said:
9 Ball goes to Strickland
8 Ball goes to Reyes
Straight Pool goes to Mosconi
One Pocket goes to Reyes
Bank Pool goes to Bugs

Sigel is not listed in any of these categories but he is certainly top 5 when it comes to 9 Ball Tournament wise.
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This is bang on! Sigel may be top 5 in 14.1 as well.
 
sjm said:
. Dick Lane used to practice 14.1 by playing 100 no-count, and probably ran over 100 every day of the week.
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I know I've heard from quite a few older guys that Mosconi himself said that Dick probably had more 100 ball runs than he did......thats pretty strong.
 
sjm said:
Wow, Terry. Didn't DeOro play a game called continuous pool, a forerunner of straight pool? That might explain it. Perhaps he only played straight pool late in his career.
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DeOro ran 80 plus balls in continuous pool prior to the advent of 14.1 in 1912 I believe you had to call a break ball and then after you ran all 15 they reracked and you called another break ball.
 
jimmyg said:
Posted a while back. Jim

Quote:
Mr441
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Official 14.1 High Runs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it's a crying shame that you can't even find an official or unofficial list of the top 14.1 runs of all time. Imagine not being able to find the top career home run leaders compiled? I figure we should try and compile at least an unofficial list here on this forum. I've listed below the best runs I've ever heard of, they're only runs I've heard from at least one reputable source, but some of the runs are more commonly known.

1- 625 Michael Eufemia (4 x 8 table?) 2- 526 Willie Mosconi (4 x 8 table)
3- 491 Thomas Engert
4- 430 Gene Nagy
5- 429 Dallas West
6- 426 Ray Martin
7- 421 Allen Hopkins
8- 408 Thorsten Hohmann
9- 408 Earl Strickland
10- 403 John Schmidt
11- 396 Jose Garcia

Anyone want to add to the list? Any German posters here? Surely Souquet or Ortmann have impressive runs.Quote
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George Rood said he ran 360 once and I never have found a reason to not believe what he told me. He had a tremendous memory even in his 90s and was always very candid and honest about what he did or did not do.
 
Fast Lenny said:
Me?....Fast Lenny a shortstop?,haha,more like the worse player in the room! :p I was so nervous playing him I was happy to make a ball,my heart was beating so loud and it was all I could hear and then I could only think of making the 1 ball and went into a ball on the wrong side hooking myself,then I kick 2 rails and missed by a few diamonds, you could say I was star struck and shook up. :D
Here is the link to where you can see Earl go on about his first time playing Wimpy and breaking out the jump shot on him,good story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQAVxK6TttA
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Yeah , in the story Earl says he invented the jump shot....he is wrong....Monsieur Mingaud invented the jump shot and just about every other shot you will ever see in the mid 1820s His book which came out first in 1827 has all the shots we use today diagrammed in it.
 
uwate said:
One thing I get out of reading this thread is that the highest level pool is sometimes a gear that doesn't last long. Different players hit their highest gear, are able to beat everyone, and then their time is over and the mantle passes to another player.

My question is, of the players who hit this peak, the top of the pool playing mountain so to speak, who sat on the top of the mountain the longest? In gambling, was it Buddy Hall? Did Sigel sit on the top of the tournament mountain the longest?
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You are absolutely correct, there is a peak that usually lasts only a year or so, some players make it last 3 or 4 Efren made it last about 25
remember Efren was a champion before he ever came to the US. I have a picture of him somewhere where he looks to be about 15 winning a big tournament in the Phillipines and those guys have been playing world class pool since the late 1800s. There are several biographies by world champion players from that era warning not to go there or you would be humiliated. HW Stevenson English Billiards Champion is the first to come to mind.
 
jay helfert said:
It's true, One Pocket was his least favorite game. He had to play it at Johnston City and the Stardust, so he did. But he never gambled at One Pocket, and would have certainly been an underdog against guys like Shorty, both Reds, Kelly and Ronnie.

He just happened to be an exceptional pool player (the Sigel of his era), and rarely missed a ball. So that made him dangerous at any game.
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I have watched that match many times, it's hard to imagine that either one of them was a great player. I know Lassiter was a great 9 ball player and he even said he didn't play 1 pocket but I never saw a match where shorty played better than shortstop speed.
 
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