Why Are Women Considered Inherently Inferior?

Scaramouche said:
In this thread

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=142623

Jam writes:

"The women, as hard as they try, as much as they train, as often as they compete with or without the men, I just don't ever see them possessing the same capabilities as the men players."....
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Since I am being quoted, I would like to add one caveat! :grin-square:

The BEST -- and I mean the ABSOLUTE BEST -- female player of all times, IMHO, is/was Jean Balukas. For whatever reason, she had the skills set needed to beat any male pro player on the face of the Earth -- yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

There are some GREAT lady pros today who possess a whole lot of killer instinct, with magnificant breaks and shot-making capabilities, but, me personally, I do not think they can defeat male pros on a consistent basis.

That is not to say that the lady pros are not capable of beating a male pro. We see that all the time in mixed tournaments. When you're talking about tournament races, anything can happen. Each player must not make a mistake.

One reason for this may be that female pool players could switch their passions as they advance in life, i.e., families, children, jobs, et cetera. Women are usually the care-takers of families. It may be why we don't see as many lady pros stay in the pool racket as long as the male pros stay in the pool racket. :wink:

Pros, though, today in pool, are a rare breed. It is the leagues where pool shines the brightest. In fact, I think the majority of pool enthusiasts identify much more with the leagues than professional pool. I know at my local pool room, if I were to go in there on a league night, 95 percent of the league members have never heard of Efren Reyes, Earl Strickland, or Ralf Souquet. :eek:
 
I believe that it really is influenced by the number of participation. The more women involved, the more you'll see talent come out of the wood work and also see more who are willing to show the dedication and discipline to work toward being the best. I have had the opportunity to shoot and practice with many women who have a decent solid game on the billiard table. Given time, I'm sure we'll see more as the sport continues to evolve.
 
mamono said:
I believe that it really is influenced by the number of participation. The more women involved, the more you'll see talent come out of the wood work and also see more who are willing to show the dedication and discipline to work toward being the best. I have had the opportunity to shoot and practice with many women who have a decent solid game on the billiard table. Given time, I'm sure we'll see more as the sport continues to evolve.
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That's a fair statement. I agree! :)
 
Perhaps women are smarter than most men. They see 95% of the greats that played for big money die broke. A bigger percentage of the women pros that make money playing pool save it or start some sort of business with it...not gamble it away in a shorter time than it took to make it on the table. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
Perhaps women are smarter than most men. They see 95% of the greats that played for big money die broke. A bigger percentage of the women pros that make money playing pool save it or start some sort of business with it...not gamble it away in a shorter time than it took to make it on the table. Johnnyt
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I really don't think that applies to the majority of today's players, Johnnyt.

If you're talking about the '70s and '80s, I would tend to agree with you. They also did a lot of gambling at the race track. :wink:
 
JAM said:
I know at my local pool room, if I were to go in there on a league night, 95 percent of the league members have never heard of Efren Reyes, Earl Strickland, or Ralf Souquet. :eek:
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HOLY CRAP do you live in antartica ?


Seriously, i could not say that about my pool room....thank goodness. Some of the lessor known players sure i understand that. But not 3 of the best ever.
 
Richardson said:
HOLY CRAP do you live in antartica ?


Seriously, i could not say that about my pool room....thank goodness. Some of the lessor known players sure i understand that. But not 3 of the best ever.
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Uh, no, I live in Washington, D.C. :o

In fact, on a league night one time in Laurel, Maryland -- suburb of D.C. -- we did a survey and asked a couple dozen league players if they ever heard of Efren Reyes or Earl Strickland. Only one out of a couple dozen said they think they had heard of Earl, but they couldn't describe what he looked like.
 
JAM said:
Uh, no, I live in Washington, D.C. :o

In fact, on a league night one time in Laurel, Maryland -- suburb of D.C. -- we did a survey and asked a couple dozen league players if they ever heard of Efren Reyes or Earl Strickland. Only one out of a couple dozen said they think they had heard of Earl, but they couldn't describe what he looked like.
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I might not be able to control myself and id just start hitting people.
 
Richardson said:
I might not be able to control myself and id just start hitting people.
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You think that's bad, there was a guy in NYC several years ago who was giving lessons and had never heard of Efren Reyes or any other top player for that matter!!
 
JAM said:
Uh, no, I live in Washington, D.C. :o

In fact, on a league night one time in Laurel, Maryland -- suburb of D.C. -- we did a survey and asked a couple dozen league players if they ever heard of Efren Reyes or Earl Strickland. Only one out of a couple dozen said they think they had heard of Earl, but they couldn't describe what he looked like.
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That's about the same amount of folks in most places would probably know what AZBilliards.com is as well. :D
 
I don't know of evidence there are gender effects when it comes to stamina. I suppose you have to look at activities where men and women have had similar training, etc. Long distance swimming is an activity with some history. Maybe ultramarathon running events. Triathlons. I don't think there's any evidence women have less stamina in these activities.

As others have said, participation numbers go a long way toward explaining the disparity we see. If a typical low-entry regional amateur event with 100 participants has 95 men and 5 women, then that suggests a 20-to-1 participation difference. If we want to wipe out this participation effect (this is related to the neglect of base rates cognitive illusion), then we should have a Mosconi-cup style team competition as follows:

Womens team --Top women players in Texas (population 24 million)

Mens team: --Top male players from Idaho, Hawaii, New Hampshire, or Rhode Island (states with about 1/20 of the Texas population).

How would these teams compare?

I've been thinking about this issue for a long time, and fair assessments are hard to do. At this point, though, I see no evidence for a gender effect in pool.
__________________
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mike page
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I think Mike's hit upon the answer. I also think that women who begin to get serious about pool have to put up with a lot of crap from people who want to talk them out of it. Lots of reasons, mostly crap, but it's gotta weigh on them after awhile. A man who begins to get serious, however, probably gets encouragement instead, at least mostly. It's a cultural thing and it's been at work keeping women out of competitive sports in high numbers for a very long time. It is getting better decade by decade, but it will probably be a couple more decades before we see parity, and we may never get there. That does not mean that the women are in any way inferior.

That said, I agree with the earlier statement by Shootingarts where he predicted a woman will take a top flight open event. It'll just be a little longer before the fields even out, if they ever do.
 
Scaramouche said:
In this thread

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=142623

Jam writes:

"The women, as hard as they try, as much as they train, as often as they compete with or without the men, I just don't ever see them possessing the same capabilities as the men players."

The mechanics of the stroke have nothing to do with physical size or power, so I am mystified by the position of many here who do not believe that women could compete with men.

Billiards, in many forms, has historically been a male amusement. Hence far more men than women have been exposed to it. And since tournaments have usually been segregated, women compete against a much smaller group of women.

Much has been written here that the way to improvement is competing against better players. Is this tip gender restrictive?
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it think women'll catch up. the more women play and compete the more they'll bridge the gap in skill.

i think a lot of it has to do with how women/men are raised. men're raised to compete. always pushed to try to "win" no matter what the game. always pushed to be the strongest fastest etc.... everything becomes a competition. while women are raised to be pretty with much less emphasis on competition.

if a boy beats his dad at basketball (or insert sports name here) then it's a big day in his life. women never talk about the day they beat their mother at something.

if women develop the same drive to win that men do i'm sure they'll compete at just as high a level as the men do
 
Richardson said:
HOLY CRAP do you live in antartica ?


Seriously, i could not say that about my pool room....thank goodness. Some of the lessor known players sure i understand that. But not 3 of the best ever.
Click to expand...

My room is the same. You know which player they've heard of, if they've heard of ANY player EVER? Jeanette Lee. And half the time they screw up the first name. "How about that one pool chick, Jenny Lee, the Black Widow? Yeah she's hot". The second name that comes to their mind is Johnny Archer.

Some of the other rooms I frequent aren't as bad though. They'll have heard of earl etc. Maybe not Shane but at least Earl.
 
poolplayer2093 said:
it think women'll catch up. the more women play and compete the more they'll bridge the gap in skill.

i think a lot of it has to do with how women/men are raised. men're raised to compete. always pushed to try to "win" no matter what the game. always pushed to be the strongest fastest etc.... everything becomes a competition. while women are raised to be pretty with much less emphasis on competition.

if a boy beats his dad at basketball (or insert sports name here) then it's a big day in his life. women never talk about the day they beat their mother at something.

if women develop the same drive to win that men do i'm sure they'll compete at just as high a level as the men do
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That's a good point. Jean Balukas was basically raised to be a champion from a very young age. I understand that her father made her practice for hours as a child, I have no doubt this was an advantage she had over the other women on the tour.
 
Mr441 said:
That's a good point. Jean Balukas was basically raised to be a champion from a very young age. I understand that her father made her practice for hours as a child, I have no doubt this was an advantage she had over the other women on the tour.
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i guess being pushed to win explains her success. i don't know much about her but from what i heard she quit playing because they wouldn't let her compete with the men? that would be a typical "have to compete" mentality that most men get brought up with. she couldn't compete at the level she deserved to and it pissed her off. gotta respect that
 
poolplayer2093 said:
it think women'll catch up. the more women play and compete the more they'll bridge the gap in skill.

i think a lot of it has to do with how women/men are raised. men're raised to compete. always pushed to try to "win" no matter what the game. always pushed to be the strongest fastest etc.... everything becomes a competition. while women are raised to be pretty with much less emphasis on competition.

if a boy beats his dad at basketball (or insert sports name here) then it's a big day in his life. women never talk about the day they beat their mother at something.

if women develop the same drive to win that men do i'm sure they'll compete at just as high a level as the men do
Click to expand...

Reminds me of a Harry Chapin song:


Why did the little girls grow crooked
While the little boys grow tall
The boys were taught to tumble
The girls told not to fall
The girls answered the telephone
The boys answered the call
That's why little girls grew crooked
While the little boys grew tall

Why did the little girls grow crippled
While the little boys grow strong
The boys allowed to come of age
The girls just came along
The girls were told sing harmonies
The boys could all sing songs
That's why little girls grew crippled
While little boys grew strong

Why did the little girls come broken
While the little boys came whole
The little boys were set aflame
The girls told to fan the coals
The boys all told to be themselves
While the girls were told play the roles
That's why little girls came broken
While little boys came whole

Why were the little girls all frightened
To be just what they are
The boys were told to ask themselves
How high how far
The girls were told to reach the shelves
While the boys were reaching stars
That's why little girls were frightened
To be just what they are

And still they bled for us all
As the moon rode the sky
They carried our seed
When our need ran high
They fed all our children
In the night as they cried
Womankind wept
As mankind died

Why were the little girls left hurtin'
When all the boys were done
And the girls left in the moonlight
When the boys went to meet the sun
And when the girls were open
Why had the little all won?
That's why little girls were hurtin'
When the little boys were done

Why did the little girls grow crooked
While the little boys grew tall
It's maybe because the little boys
Didn't ever have to grow up at all
 
A filly ( female horse) beat the boys today to win the Preakness !
But to be fair according to the experts she is a freak of nature ,a monster sized horse. She won wire to wire (start to finish)
 
Women are not inherently inferior to men. It's cultural bias and nothing more. Especially in pool.

Get rid of the cultural bias and increase the numbers of competitve participants who all compete equally then the best will rise to the top and those players will be roughly equal in gender representation.

We are still in our infancy as an "enlightened" society. Women are still not treated equally and it will be a long long time before they are.

There are a few websites out there - can't think of one now, that do tests to show a person how they are subconciously biased. People who think that they are not biased or racist or chauvanist find out that the are despite their concscious proclamations that they aren't. It's bred into us, men and women alike, and the very fact that we have to proclaim we ARE NOT biased means that not only is bias still quite prevalent but it's part of who we are.

I have seen Kelly Fisher beat the ghost on a tight table. Just her and the balls. She ran the patterns perfectly and played the shots as they should be played.

To me she played as good as any human could when doing that. What happens when she plays another person then that makes a Johnny Archer so much "better" than her?

Is there any shot that Johnny can make that Kelly can't? I don't think so. I believe wholeheartedly that if you show Kelly Fisher ANY shot then she will be able to master it in few minutes.

But here is the difference between Kelly Fisher and Johnny Archer. Johnny has already played every possible shot known to man in competitive situations. He has already been beat on by top flight players who employed every shot they know against him. He has been able to absorb all of that and then use it when he needs to. Kelly doesn't have the benefit of that experience. She hasn't learned the way Johnny did and so when game day comes she can only bring to the table all that she knows. She comes to the table knowing that she has the technical skills but also knowing that there will be a few situations she hasn't seen before, hasn't practiced and doens't know what all the options are. Johnny comes to the table having seen it all and his mind snaps to the best shot, the best percentage right away. And beyond that if in the unlikely event that Johnny would be faced with a situation that he hasn't seen before then he has an incredible amount of experience and a library of techniques to draw on.

Now, let's add in the mental game. Well first of all Johnny has played all the high pressure matches one could ask for agains the best of the best on every table in every place. Kelly hasn't. Johnny might feel some pressure to be playing a woman but nothign like the pressure he already faded many times over in his championship matches. Kelly has the whole fate of womankind on her shoulders however because people are watching to see if a "woman" can beat the great Johhny Archer. Put a man in the box of the exact same skill and experience level as Kelly and he has less pressure than she does.

And that is why women aren't winning more against men.

Someday there won't be any male or female designation when it comes to pool players. It will just be pool players.
 
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