Ivory

Last I checked cows weren't in danger of being hunted to extinction.

you may not be a POS for eating a hamburger, but for using cows in this arguement ..........

use your imagination.


It's really dissapointing to see that people are still stuck in the stone age.

Grow up.Ivory in this country is from pre-banned times.Nobody is advocating killing elephants but there is enough ivory in the country to make ferrules for ages.
BTW Ivory is not soft as a matter of fact it is super hard.Human teeth are Ivory.
I too usr an ivory ferrule but a buckhorn is a close second.Do you have objections to killing bucks?
 
It would be interesting to know how many of the people that are crying about the elephants love a good prime rib or pork chop.

I have two ivory ferrule'd shafts for my new cue which has an ivory joint, ivory buttcap, ivory points, and ivory windows. The way the joint/ferrule/shaft combo hits is incredible.
 
My friend, you're just gonna have to open up the wallet and do it to really find out. It also depends on what kind of player you are. You might be an LD man, and if you are, I don't recommend it. Also, if you are not an experienced player, you won't even be able to comprehend the difference.

Apparently, you are not satisfied with what you got, otherwise, you wouldn't be asking these questions. I say go for it if that's what you truly want.

Me, personally, I play with nothing but ivory joint and ferrule. Check out my cue:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=152984

To me, I prefer the hit and feel of ivory compared to any other material. I also like the way I can wipe off the chalk easily. I use a tip pad and a Kamui Hard tip. I have been using ivory for some time now, and have never seen issues. Some will rag on ivory all day long because of elephants, but there is a ton of the legal stuff around and it simply a part of pool. Yes, there are other options, like buckhorn, buffalo horn, and fiber materials, but I have tried them all and ivory is superior to them all. The feel, the properties, the look, the classiness of it... how it machines, it is king.

Some key things to remember: Don't break too hard off center with it, and don't leave it it extreme temperatures. Some baby oil theirs, I don't and have never had a problem. Ivory is not soft like people think. It is a hard material. It just doesn't flex like the other ferrules. Deflects differently too. I personally enjoy deflection and can use it to my advantage all day long. It did take me a minute to get used to it, and at first, I did not appreciate it for what it was, but after time, I fell in love with it. I do like micarta and buck horn, but they have way different characteristics.

You will have to go to the extra lengths to take care of it, but that is just the same as you would treat any of your possessions.... handled with care.

Good post, thanks for the info. I just want to see why so many ppl prefer it.
 
I have a schon loaded with ivory 'buttcap,joint, inlays, rings and ferrule'


and it hits awesome. yeah the ferrule does deflect more but its something you
just adjust to. It looks good and it cleans up better.

And im pretty sure Schon isnt using illegal ivory. Theres more than enough preban ivory to go around. And like 1pkctroscoe said, elephants right now suffer from OVERPOPULATION. They have no natural predator and can therefore multiply like rabbits and decemate entire forests. and any new ivory coming in to the U.S is most likely coming from dead animals, which is how we get most of our elephant ear wraps also.


and if using ivory makes me a POS then so be it. My next stick will be made of old growth forrest, have some blood diamonds in it and a baby seal skin wrap. Oh yeah and of course tons of Ivory. ;)
 
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Grow up.Ivory in this country is from pre-banned times.Nobody is advocating killing elephants but there is enough ivory in the country to make ferrules for ages.
BTW Ivory is not soft as a matter of fact it is super hard.Human teeth are Ivory.
I too usr an ivory ferrule but a buckhorn is a close second.Do you have objections to killing bucks?

Right!!!!!!? And there's ivory police checking the ivory to make sure it's pre ban.

Other than points of entry the law is unenforcable and people find ways to circumvent it all the time. People can't in good concience buy ivory and expect it to be preban. Fact is most preban ivory is already in use.
 
Right!!!!!!? And there's ivory police checking the ivory to make sure it's pre ban.

Other than points of entry the law is unenforcable and people find ways to circumvent it all the time. People can't in good concience buy ivory and expect it to be preban. Fact is most preban ivory is already in use.

Not to nit pick, but how could you possibly know this? I am not bashing you, Im just curious.


Joe
 
What a slanted post.....


I own many cues, and all but one (maybe two) have ivory ferrules, and I've never killed an elephant. Guess that means you don't have to kill to have one....
.

It didn't grow on a tree and they don't just fall off elephants so someone somewhere killed and elephant.
 
It would be interesting to know how many of the people that are crying about the elephants love a good prime rib or pork chop.

I have two ivory ferrule'd shafts for my new cue which has an ivory joint, ivory buttcap, ivory points, and ivory windows. The way the joint/ferrule/shaft combo hits is incredible.

what the heck does eating prime rib and pork chops have to do with it?
When they kill an elephant they only take his tusk. It's not like your butchering a farm animal for market. Gezzzzzzz
 
WOW this topic really took a HUGE TURN!!!!!!! I dont think it matters how the Ivory has gotten here or how it was harvested. One thing that does matter is that Ivory is here to stay no matter what anybody says.
 
Right!!!!!!? And there's ivory police checking the ivory to make sure it's pre ban.

Other than points of entry the law is unenforcable and people find ways to circumvent it all the time. People can't in good concience buy ivory and expect it to be preban. Fact is most preban ivory is already in use.

You are wrong again, as usual. Green Ivory, less than 30 to 40 years old, is no good for use in any part of a pool cue. It must be seasoned, just like the wood. So your gratuitous assertion about smuggled Ivory is wrong, along with your whole cloth assertion that most pre ban Ivory is already in use. You spout these lies because they fit your agenda, not because they are the truth.
 
Wow, all this talk about ivory has made me hungry for a whale burger!!
Regardless of how you feel about ivory or any other highly debatable topic, why can't people just stay on their sides of the line and keep to themselves. I'm not an elephant killer, and I have actually been shot at...........and shot back at poachers, so you could only imagine how I feel about poachers! My point is, if you're against ivory then make youre God given choice to avoid using it. But quit making everybody else out to be poachers, supporters of poachers, or some kind of low life killers. (POS-I can deal with:D)
Do your part to show your support for your position on ivory by YOU not purchasing or using anything with ivory, but stay off my toes 'cause it's none of your business!!

dave
 
After reading such well thought out arguments from the lunatic fringe, sorry, environmental lobby. I have come around and now I’m completely against using Ivory it is just plain wrong. …….and all that white stuff on my cue is not ivory, definitely not ivory….eh,… its ivory imitation,…..that’s it…….an imitation.
So, don’t splash red paint on it, ……..ok – thanks ahead of time………..
 
From "The Best of RSB"-- http://www.cuemaster.com/RSB/ivory.htm

Laura Friedman & Thomas Wayne
Dialogue on Elephant Ivory

I’m reposting this in response to the apparent ignorance displayed in
the many recent posts addressing the use of Ivory in cues...TW


Laura Friedman wrote:

This will probably start a whole schmegegy of a discussion, but hey, I haven't started any long threads yet...
Using ivory encourages poaching! "We only use old ivory, blah blah blah. All our ivory is registered and numbered," blah blah blah." I'm sorry, but it's common knowledge that poaching is still a huge problem the world over. Indian elephants are almost extinct, and African elephants in many areas aren't doing much better. I'm pretty sure that I've read that the US has recently lifted an ivory embargo against Japan, a country that does not have any poaching laws, and illegally obtained ivory is expected to enter this county at even higher rates than before. You cuemakers should stop and think about the message you're sending by promoting ivory as an exotic and desirable material. Weather or not your ivory is indeed old "legal" ivory, by using it you encourage others who are not so scrupulous to obtain it by any means necessary. There are synthetic ferrels that hit just as well, if not better, than ivory. And there are plenty of other interesting materials you can use for inlays. Players, I encourage you to specifically ask for no ivory to be used on your custom cues.

This is important to me, so today I'm just
Laura


Thomas Wayne wrote:

Well, Laura, this subject is important to me , too. In fact, it is so important that I have done considerable research over the last several years in an effort to keep current on the subject. What is most distressing to me is that so many people come by their "facts" in the same way you have - believing "common knowledge" and quoting things they’re "pretty sure" they read somewhere. In keeping with this practice, the article you’ve posted is composed mostly of distorted halftruths. Please don’t take offense at this statement, I know it’s not your fault. There has been a powerful, if misguided, effort to convince the general public that nothing short of an outright ban on elephant ivory will "save" the elephant. That you’ve bought into this disastrous hogwash is due to the fact that no one has given you the unvarnished facts. What follows is ‘the rest of the story’ to the AFRICAN elephant ivory issue. Hope you’re ready...

______________________________________________________________

THINGS YOU DON’T KNOW ABOUT ELEPHANTS AND THEIR IVORY:
______________________________________________________________

Elephants are herbivores, surviving on abrasive plant matter available in their natural habitat. In the process of chewing this plant matter, the elephant tends to wear out its teeth at a rather rapid rate. While a good set of teeth might last us 60 years or more, the elephant goes through a set of teeth in 6 - 10 years. When these teeth are worn out, they are replaced by a new set, allowing for a ‘fresh start’. But there is a limit. Elephants have the capacity for only SIX sets of teeth. When the last set wears out, the elephant, by this time large and masterful, dies a slow and unpleasant death by starvation. Period.

Elephants have no natural enemies; disease and starvation are the only limitations to their continued success in the wild. For this reason, a well protected herd can grow quite rapidly, in fact TOO rapidly for most habitats.

Elephants compete with man for land. As the human populations of the African countries grow, the elephants have increasingly less space to call home. With no commercial value currently attached to the elephant herds, there is little incentive for the local inhabitants to preserve this majestic ‘land hog’.

Elephant Ivory has NEVER sold for more in the United States than it does right now; $110 per pound is about the maximum one has to pay for top quality tusks. By contrast, the Asian countries have ALWAYS been willing to pay premium prices, as high as $200 or more, for the same ivory. This ivory is used for, among other things, the personal "name chops" with which these cultures like to "sign" (ink stamp) their names, hence the term. Because they often cut the ivory into such small pieces, aging and dryness is not so important to them. Logistically, it is much easier to smuggle poached ivory into the Asian countries than to the U.S.; I am unaware of any case of elephant ivory being smuggled into THIS country.

WHO HAS BANNED THE INTERNATIONAL TRADE IN IVORY?

The international trade in wildlife is regulated by the Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species (C.I.T.E.S.). Formed in 1973, this multinational (more than 100 countries) division of the UN, housed in Switzerland, meets every two years to determine guidelines for governing the protection of endangered species. In 1990, C.I.T.E.S. officially changed the status of the African elephant from ‘Appendix 2’ (protected/threatened) to ‘Appendix 1’ (endangered). This change banned all international trade in elephant ivory, though the United States had been under a self-imposed ban since 1989.

EVERBODY LOVES ELEPHANTS, SO WHAT COULD BE WRONG WITH BANNING COMMERCIAL TRADE IN ELEPHANT IVORY?

Unfortunately for the elephant, the ban has hurt more than it has helped. When the president of Kenya (Daniel arap Moi) burned a large pile of elephant tusks on international television in 1989, he set fire to a movement for a worldwide ivory ban directed at stopping poaching. While this was fine for the countries of East Africa, where poaching actually WAS a problem, it has spelled disaster for the elephants of southern Africa. Three countries in particular - Zimbabwe, South Africa, and Botswana - had, for over 20 years, successfully managed to INCREASE the size of their herds through careful game management.

Remember the leading causes for elephant deaths: disease and starvation? In a well managed herd, these animals are culled (killed and removed from the herd) in order to allow the rest of the herd to thrive. In fact, most of the news footage of "wanton elephant slaughter by poachers" seen on ‘nature shows’ around the time of the ban was actually film of government-managed herd thinning programs. Not coincidentally, after culling, the commercially desirable ivory, hides and meat are then sold on the open market. Or at least they WERE sold, until the ban took effect. The successful game management programs of these exemplary countries were paid for, in abundance, through the sale of salvaged elephant products. By 1992, for example, Zimbabwe had culled more than 44,000 elephants over a 25 year period, yet their herds continued to increase in numbers. South Africa and Botswana have similar tracks records. In fact, by 1992 there were more than 650,000 elephants in the wild! Never before in history has a species with such huge numbers been labeled "endangered".

Now, the problem is land. The unchecked growth of elephant herds has collided squarely with the humans’ growing need for living space. With this conflict, the ability of these countries to manage their herds has all but evaporated. Botswana’s planned schedule of limiting its elephant population at about 55,000 has become financially impossible. The success of any game management plan hinges on its finances. It is very hard to justify using continually larger tracts of land to house an abundant species that isn’t even allowed to pay for its own keep. And you can just about forget about defending against poachers. Since poachers are most generally shot to death on sight, they tend to fight back pretty ferociously. It’s kind of hard to find game officers willing to risk their lives battling heavily armed ivory thieves for minimum wage!

SO, WHAT THE HELL AM I SAYING HERE, ANYWAY?

What I am saying here is, Laura - with all due respect - your plea for cuemakers to stop using ivory, while clearly quite passionate is, in a word: misguided. African elephants are not only NOT in danger of extinction, at this point they are actually suffering from OVER-population. Meanwhile, poaching is under control, but not for much longer. These African countries are running out of resources, and when something finally has to give, it’s going to be the elephants. Without the income from salvaged elephant products, these successful game management programs are doomed. It’s just a matter of time.

Your suggestion that "the US has recently lifted an ivory embargo against Japan" is way off base. In fact, C.I.T.E.S. has just recently approved (the U.S. opposed this) a ONE-TIME bulk sale of elephant ivory to Japan to help satisfy that market demand and to defray southern African game management expenses. This ivory is from the culled stockpiles that countries like Zimbabwe have collected and stored since the ban was imposed. The amount allowed was significantly smaller than the Southern African Centre for Ivory Marketing (SACIM) had requested. This highly controlled and greatly limited trade agreement, while merely a ‘drop in the bucket’, has been hailed by the southern African conservationists as a first step in the right direction.

As for your statement that: "Using Ivory encourages poaching", well, allow me to respectfully disagree:

Ivory can be found in the finest of all art forms, both ancient and modern. In a multitude of examples throughout history, it has created the greatest impact of any material used. It is really only a recent fad to look at ivory as a negative thing. This frenzied ‘knee-jerk’ reaction to sensationalistic journalism - at its worst - has resulted in a political climate wherein the African elephant might finally be destroyed by the very forces that would seek to "save" it. Your argument that "using [ancient, legal] ivory encourages poaching" is, at best, naive. It presupposes that the entire population of the earth can be persuaded by a few idealistic ‘tree-huggers’. Why do you think synthetic ferrule materials are made ivory colored? One of the more popular materials for this purpose is even called "Ivorine 3"! Laura, are your ferrules a non-ivory color (say black phenolic, for example)? No? Well, aren’t you worried that you’ll help feed the public desire for ivory with your look-alike substitute? :-] People want ivory. It’s that simple. The solution to protecting the elephant is to REGULATE ivory use, not ban it. In that way, the elephant can fund (in excess) its own survival. But without the regulated sale of salvaged ivory, the elephant may ultimately be doomed.

As for cuemakers, you can sleep peacefully on that issue. Any cuemaker foolish enough to use fresh ("green") ivory in a cue will get what he so richly deserves. As a general rule, if I can’t document that a tusk was taken (at a minimum) BEFORE I was born, I won’t buy it.

If you REALLY want to do something to ‘save’ the elephant, perhaps you’d be willing to send large sums of money to some of these south African countries to help fund their game management programs. I’ll be happy to provide you with the addresses...

Thomas Wayne
 
it's clear that the ivory cue folks don't understand or don't want to understand or just don't care about the senseless cruelty involved in the ivory trade. they speak NOT to the near extinction of a wonderful species for the bragging rights of owning a cue with ivory. i stand by my POS comment.
 
it's clear that the ivory cue folks don't understand or don't want to understand or just don't care about the senseless cruelty involved in the ivory trade. they speak NOT to the near extinction of a wonderful species for the bragging rights of owning a cue with ivory. i stand by my POS comment.

And I totally accept you're calling me a POS 'cause I too am not immune to the ability of a computer monitor to make ones balls much bigger than they really are............Done with this subject.
Don't use ivory, it's all you can do to support your opinion, and I totally respect that.

dave
 
Do your part to show your support for your position on ivory by YOU not purchasing or using anything with ivory, but stay off my toes 'cause it's none of your business!!
you are supporting imense cruelty and the extinction of a wonderful species for a stinking pool cue. so yeah, i take it personally because i care about elephants and i care about the planet as a whole. your posts on this subject show that you care only about what makes you happy. this is exactly the attitude that threatens the entire planet. soon there will 7 billion greedly, slimy, human vermin like you running around, buring forests, murdering wildlife et and we will all pay the price. this is my planet too!

And I totally accept you're calling me a POS 'cause I too am not immune to the ability of a computer monitor to make ones balls much bigger than they really are............Done with this subject.
i don't say anything here that i wouldn't say to your face.
 
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