Best Machine Ever. :-)
- Thread starter John Barton
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John Barton
New member
My question is not intended to argue with people nor to debate HOW to do a particular thing.
It was intended to spark some thought about the nature of knowledge and whether knowledge should be shared and if so with whom?
I hold the view that people have knowledge that gives them an edge over people that don't and companies have knowledge that give them an advantage over other companies that don't and those people and companies should protect that knowledge as long as they can from EVERYONE else if they want to retain their competitive advantage.
But it also seems clear to me that anyone engaged in building and selling things as a (hopefully) profit making venture would WANT to be able to get the best equipment and techniques.
So why is it not a two way street? Why is one cue maker labeled a sell out if he sells HIS OWN knowledge to anyone who pays him for it?
Or, another way to look at it is what is the difference between one cue maker who teaches a factory how to make cues and a cue maker who teaches hundreds of individuals how to start a cue making business?
I guess one could say that the factory's production creates an army of salespeople and teaching hundreds of individuals creates an army of cue makers.
I can see that an army of cue makers is going to all need the same basic equipment and so that may tend to be a greater economic boom to the suppliers of that equipment than any single factory might be. But's thats a question for the economists.
My original question is this - WHO is it ok to share YOUR knowledge with?
I mean whatever is in your head, whatever techniques and jigs you developed that work for you are yours. At some point you took knowledge from someone else to increase your own. Someone showed you how to build a jig, they shared a technique or a supplier. And at some point you shared some of what you know to help others in the craft.
So my question is does innovation and knowledge have a nationality? If Lee Malakoff lived in Russia and did exactly the same things he does now to further the cue making industry, building machines to make certain processes easier, accurate and repeatable, would you as a cue maker desire to purchase his machines? Would you be upset if he declined to sell them to you because you are not Russian? Would you feel that you should have the right as a human being to buy something sold on the open market?
And the last question, do you feel that the knowledge you have is yours to sell or give away as you see fit to do with it?
It was intended to spark some thought about the nature of knowledge and whether knowledge should be shared and if so with whom?
I hold the view that people have knowledge that gives them an edge over people that don't and companies have knowledge that give them an advantage over other companies that don't and those people and companies should protect that knowledge as long as they can from EVERYONE else if they want to retain their competitive advantage.
But it also seems clear to me that anyone engaged in building and selling things as a (hopefully) profit making venture would WANT to be able to get the best equipment and techniques.
So why is it not a two way street? Why is one cue maker labeled a sell out if he sells HIS OWN knowledge to anyone who pays him for it?
Or, another way to look at it is what is the difference between one cue maker who teaches a factory how to make cues and a cue maker who teaches hundreds of individuals how to start a cue making business?
I guess one could say that the factory's production creates an army of salespeople and teaching hundreds of individuals creates an army of cue makers.
I can see that an army of cue makers is going to all need the same basic equipment and so that may tend to be a greater economic boom to the suppliers of that equipment than any single factory might be. But's thats a question for the economists.
My original question is this - WHO is it ok to share YOUR knowledge with?
I mean whatever is in your head, whatever techniques and jigs you developed that work for you are yours. At some point you took knowledge from someone else to increase your own. Someone showed you how to build a jig, they shared a technique or a supplier. And at some point you shared some of what you know to help others in the craft.
So my question is does innovation and knowledge have a nationality? If Lee Malakoff lived in Russia and did exactly the same things he does now to further the cue making industry, building machines to make certain processes easier, accurate and repeatable, would you as a cue maker desire to purchase his machines? Would you be upset if he declined to sell them to you because you are not Russian? Would you feel that you should have the right as a human being to buy something sold on the open market?
And the last question, do you feel that the knowledge you have is yours to sell or give away as you see fit to do with it?
John Barton
New member
No one has been bullied Bob. The question was clear. The intent of the question was made perfectly clear.
The only bait and switch is when you interject something that has nothing to do with the topic.
The question was not intended to get into a global economics discussion but instead to ASK THE CUEMAKER about a topic related to MAKING CUES.
I will tell you what I would do if I came across some killer machine here that advanced cue making and was freely available to anyone - I would let my cue making friends in the USA know about it and help them to acquire it if they wanted one.
I would want Bob Danielson cues to have the same chance to improve his cue making as anyone else in the world has.
But's that is just me. Maybe I am not competitive enough. Hey all you aspiring case makers who I have given advice to, please forget what I told you and don't ask me for anything else.
John Barton
New member
Yes. I see the attitude and comments that assert that some cue makers are "selling out" America when they teach people in other countries how to improve their cue making.
I wanted to know if a person who feels that way would then accept knowledge or machinery that would improve their own cue making if it came from somewhere beside the USA?
Bridgeport and Hardinge.
John Barton
New member
Ok, you don't have to shout. Thanks for the well wishes.
For the purpose of the discussion though if someone in another country, China or Russia or Germany, for example, were to invent a great machine for doing some part of cuemaking that you didn't currently have in your line up.
Wouldn't you want to get a look at this machine and see how it works so that you could make your own version of it?
I can give you examples from my leatherworking community. We are worldwide and we share knowledge. Recently a new member from Kazakstan posted some awesome work that he did which was done with tools he created.
At first he just showed the work and when asked how he did some of the techniques he showed us his tools that he made.
Immediately a few of the members of the community who live in the USA created similar tools and posted up some work which looked great. Those USA based leather workers just increased their knowledge and abilities due to the sharing of knowledge by the guy from Kazakstan.
Something similar occurred when a top leather worker from Taiwan shared his work and how he did it with the folks on the leather board.
So those are my examples of knowledge sharing. On a competitive front I always feel that if any one anywhere in the world does something better than I do it then I want to learn how to do it. If someone has a tool that helps me to do a better job then I want to buy it or make something similar.
Of course they would. They just wont admit it.
Hypocrisy is IN these days.
Especially with the folks that get real patriotic, it's a bit like religion, it allows for some magical thinking, and ignoring of facts. Faith = sanctioned ignorance.
This is a GREAT idea Sheldon! You don't like the bickering about country of origin, let's throw religion into the mix! :angry:
Matthew 15:11 "That which enters into the mouth doesn't defile the man; but that which proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."
I think there are a number of factors involved beyond simply having the same or better product.
1. Country loyalty, unless the product was vastly better than something offered here, people would stick to US based products in this niche. (or a huge price difference )
2. Reputation, People feel confident that if they buy a product from Lee or Chris, that the already established customer service of both of those companies will be available to them. (while a China firm can offer the same customer service, it takes time to be well known for it)
3. "China is bad" stereotype. People who fall under the country loyalty topic, already have a bad feeling about 'made in china'. While I understand your posts are meant to battle that, I think that you may actually (at least in this community) be fueling that. I applaud you for your effort to educate potential customers in the US that products made by select manufacturers in China may be terrific products, but when any thread about China on the forums comes up, everyone wonders which page your post will come. I am not suggesting you change your views or the way you post, just pointing out that you may be actually harming your cause in the long run by being so persistant.
Best of luck to you and your companies. When it comes to cases, I hope to buy one from you in the near future. When it comes to Cue building equiment, until a vendor in China is well known in the communities i'm in and can blow away what Chris and Lee sell, i'll stick to them.
1. Country loyalty, unless the product was vastly better than something offered here, people would stick to US based products in this niche. (or a huge price difference )
2. Reputation, People feel confident that if they buy a product from Lee or Chris, that the already established customer service of both of those companies will be available to them. (while a China firm can offer the same customer service, it takes time to be well known for it)
3. "China is bad" stereotype. People who fall under the country loyalty topic, already have a bad feeling about 'made in china'. While I understand your posts are meant to battle that, I think that you may actually (at least in this community) be fueling that. I applaud you for your effort to educate potential customers in the US that products made by select manufacturers in China may be terrific products, but when any thread about China on the forums comes up, everyone wonders which page your post will come. I am not suggesting you change your views or the way you post, just pointing out that you may be actually harming your cause in the long run by being so persistant.
Best of luck to you and your companies. When it comes to cases, I hope to buy one from you in the near future. When it comes to Cue building equiment, until a vendor in China is well known in the communities i'm in and can blow away what Chris and Lee sell, i'll stick to them.
John Barton
New member
And John 8:7 - 'He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone'.
John Barton
New member
All great and accurate points. I want to reiterate that I am NOT planning any machines or trying to sell any. I just thought it was a good point of discussion.
Back to the lasers - there are several companies who sell the Chinese lasers in the USA for $5-$7000 each and the laser forums are full of people who bought them and are constantly having issues with them so that speaks to the validity of your points.
My example was VERY hypothetical and was about some fanciful super machine that doesn't exist.
IMHO - I am just short of stunned that someone who has acted
ONLY in ways to promote his own self interest, to the total exclusion
of any other consideration, would be so confused that others
would prefer to improve, or at least retain, their self interest.
Do you require an explaination?
Dale
JOHN IMHO if the people in CHINA invented a Cure for AIDS, CANCER, the World would line up to buy it.
John Barton
New member
Yes please. How do you figure that I have acted only in ways to promote my self interest?
Please don't make accusations that you cannot support.
But as far as you want to interject self-interest into the discussion wouldn't it be in your best interest as a cue maker to acquire the best machine or the greatest technique no matter where it came from?
If your answer to the above is yes then do you favor restricting others from getting the same machine or technique?
Since I feel that at least part of Johns intent was directed at me than I will answer. Chi Mak. In case you don't know him, John, he is a Chinese man convicted of spying for the Chinese government for industrial secrets. You question about buying the latest greatest is not connected to the sale of information that developed it. Yes, most everyone here would buy the latest greatest if it was at a cost point they could afford. The conflict is in the selling of the information or technology that was handed over. Countries do think that information is ownable otherwise spies would not exist and information about everything would be readily available everywhere and spies would not be neccesary. We don't all live in a communist world and don't seem to want to. Krupp sold armour and artillery shells to foriegn nations for many years, even while Germany was at war with that nation. But he sold armour that his new artillery would go through, then artillery that would not go through the new armour they developed. He did not sell the farm by selling the technology for the latest and greatest to the rest of the world.
So, if as Sheldon thinks this all comes down to hypocracy then I will tell you a story. I said before that I was partners for a short time with David Forman of Adam cues. Part of our dispute was that he wanted to make my Sweet Spot 360 laminated shaft in Asia at the new factory that he was building with the help of the brothers that made Hercules tips. I did not want the technology that I had developed to leave my control or to leave the US. If I had my life may had been more substantially monetarily rewarding than it is today. I would have had an opportunity to compete with Predator more evenly in the market place with more dollars behind me and cheaper production costs. But I did not and don't regret it. So when I say that I feel that Predator is greedy by having their goods made in China when they already have dominance in the market place and only do it to increase their bottom line than that's my opinion and you can have ours and if you or any one else wants to think I am a hypocrit so be it.
Does Bill Stroud have the right to sell the industrial information he has collected over the years to the highest bidder. Yes, it seems that capitalism has won the day. Do I think that was a boon to the US. No.
So, if you want to ask a question, as you might say, man up and ask but ask in the right forum and state your intent in the beginning.
Bob Danielson
So, if as Sheldon thinks this all comes down to hypocracy then I will tell you a story. I said before that I was partners for a short time with David Forman of Adam cues. Part of our dispute was that he wanted to make my Sweet Spot 360 laminated shaft in Asia at the new factory that he was building with the help of the brothers that made Hercules tips. I did not want the technology that I had developed to leave my control or to leave the US. If I had my life may had been more substantially monetarily rewarding than it is today. I would have had an opportunity to compete with Predator more evenly in the market place with more dollars behind me and cheaper production costs. But I did not and don't regret it. So when I say that I feel that Predator is greedy by having their goods made in China when they already have dominance in the market place and only do it to increase their bottom line than that's my opinion and you can have ours and if you or any one else wants to think I am a hypocrit so be it.
Does Bill Stroud have the right to sell the industrial information he has collected over the years to the highest bidder. Yes, it seems that capitalism has won the day. Do I think that was a boon to the US. No.
So, if you want to ask a question, as you might say, man up and ask but ask in the right forum and state your intent in the beginning.
Bob Danielson
Yeap! They're working with their Chinese lathes as they wave old glory and spill non-sense here.
It's TIME FOR A,
There is much gayness in that pic.
