double-the-distance aiming method (PIM: Pocket Intersection Method)

[SpiderWebComm]

DRAFT DESCRIPTION OF THE CTE PROCEDURE
​

For a “thick hit” (a small cut angle less than 15 degrees) to the left:

1. Align the cue 1 tip to the right of the CB center through the right edge of the OB.--- Not true.
2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line, using a 10-12 inch bridge length-- Not true. Bridge length mentioned is usually the range - but not always, esp. closer shots.
3. Pivot the cue (without shifting the bridge at all, so the cue rotates about the fixed bridge-pivot point), until the cue is pointed directly through the center of the CB. Almost never. You almost never turn from the bridge - depends on the length of shot. The edge used can affect your pivot.
4. Stroke perfectly straight along this line. True. You can also "crash" the vertical planes together with the turned cue.

For a “half-ball hit” (close to 30 degrees) to the left:

1. 
   [*]Align the cue through the center of the CB and through the right edge of the OB.
   [*]Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line. The bridge length can be anything for this shot since there is no pivot.
   [*]Stroke perfectly straight along this center-to-edge line.
   
   Although this is true to make the ball - it's not true for the system. Since this part isn't a secret, you should pivot on ALL shots - even this one. Reason being: How do you KNOW it's a 1/2 ball hit? Some 1/2 balls hits you can't perceive. You can pivot either from right to left or left to right.

For a “thin cut” (more than 45 degrees) to the left:

1. Align the cue 1 tip to the left of the CB center through the right edge of the OB. Not true.
2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line, using a 10-12 inch bridge length. Mostly; however, it depends on the shot length
3. Pivot the cue (without shifting the bridge at all, so the cue rotates about the fixed bridge-pivot point), until the cue is pointed directly through the center of the CB. Almost never.
4. Stroke perfectly straight along this line. Yes, true. Or, you can crash the vertical planes together.

If you follow the procedures above exactly, you will make shots within certain limited ranges of angles.

True - because you're pivoting "randomly."

However, you will miss most shots outside of these limited ranges, unless the OB is very close to the pocket and/or the pockets are huge (so significant "pocket cheating" is possible).

True - based on the technique you mentioned.

Now, you can make the procedures work if you compensate a little as the cut angle changes. For example, you can adjust your bridge length (this has a huge effect on the results of the pivot step per Diagram 4 in my December ‘08 BD article, which is included below),

Never wanna mess with that unless it's tight quarters

modify the starting tip position a little, pivot slightly less or slightly more relative to the CB center,

Nah - it should always be the same.


and/or you can shift your bridge hand slightly during the pivot (e.g., by pivoting with your hips or body) to create a different effective pivot point farther back or closer up from the bridge.

This happens inside of your bridge--- your bridge hand shouldn't shift - but you SHOULD do the above mentioned technique. That's where people get lost - they always rotate the cue from the bridge (which almost never happens).

You can also “air pivot” where you make subtle changes to all of this stuff intuitively as you come down into the shot (in which case you place your bridge and cue along the required line of aim of the shot with center-ball alignment, without using the separate tip-offset-and-pivot steps). Then, the system can work perfectly for any shot at the table, provided you can judge, perceive, and apply the subtle differences from one shot to another (in which case you don’t need an aiming system).

This is developed over time - you actually turn the cue while standing, it's hard to explain. You do the tip offset and pivot steps--you do everything, just not on the table. Hard to explain to someone who hasn't done this for years. This is advanced stuff... not something taught to beginning people.

Hopefully, this is enough of a start to create some useful discussion. I look forward to input from you and others so we can refine this procedure to have it better represent what you think CTE is.

Thank you for your time,
Dave

PS: I put a lot of time into this, so please respond in a constructive way (even if critically constructive), so we can make some progress. In other words, please contribute some of your knowledge and information.

See my notes above in RED
I see you put together a lot of time. This was excellent because it shows how much is missing. The tip positions aren't good, the pivot isn't correct and the bridge length is not always 10-12" (for many shots that'll work though).

Tip position is a constant, the pivot is a variable, the bridge length is usually constant until you get close-up. The side of the ball from which you setup is a variable "traditionally" but it can be one side or the other all of the time based on whether you're a right hander or left once you learn a more advanced pivot.

There's no mentioned of edges here and there's a ton to say. There's technically an infinite number of edges to a circle; but for simplicity's sake - let's just say there are 360. The moment your body/head moves slightly to the left or right--- you're seeing a different edge. Your body's relation to the "reference line" is a variable.

Someone can read what I write and say, "WOW - there's a lot there... not just as simple as pivot and make!"

There is a lot to know with CTE if you really wanna learn the guts of it. It's not a 2 min lesson. It's like poker-- I can teach you the hands in 2 minutes but you'll never win a bracelet for a long time. HOWEVER, the variables are based on absolute references instead of invisible points in 3-D space. That's what makes it so repeatable - and so impressive. However, you run through the steps instantly when you know them. At the highest level --- you think: which side of the CTEL, how close is the OB...ok, pivot.

Once you understand how your eyes see the reference lines and you can make a sighting correction (unless you're lucky-- which is a body adjustment not a system adjustment), which is a constant on every single shot. Many people think they "SEE" the CTEL, but they don't. That's what I mean.

I hope this gives you a better insight.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

So... what #4 really means is that my stroke is not always straight through, but my eyesight is. The only time it is, is when the shot needs no English. As soon as English is applied, the cue is pivoted about the pivot point but the eyes stay at the aim point. Now, just to be clear... my aim point DOES change depending on the "type" of English applied, either thicker/thinner for inside English or outside English depending on the speed & squerve.

I can actually talk all day on this exact technique. This is something that is never discussed openly because so few people really do this effectively. This is what I call crashing vertical planes--- where you have an OB plane and a vision plane and crash them flat against each other with a turned cue.

This is how I shoot every shot - but that's just me.

 

[dr_dave]

new "sighting" thread

Thank you for bumping this up again. I was disappointed it wasn't discussed, especially in light of the tremendous enthusiasm for Gene's thread. Thank you for your answers. I look forward to seeing what other people think, especially some of the instructors and players out there. I actually planned to start a new thread on this. If people don't respond here, maybe I will.

FYI, I just started a new thread on this topic so we can keep the remaining discussion here focused on CTE. Please post comments or discussion on this topic in the new thread.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Good post to bring up Clark, seems like that one got missed.

I have always centered my eyes through the center of the cueball, which I now believe could be why I had trouble on certain shots. I wont say which ones for fear that my opponents may be reading

Geeze all this talk about aiming theory is making me want to dig my cues out of the closet and find a table somewhere.

Woody

Your eyes are never over the center of the CB regardless. If you do, your cue might inadvertently land on the CTEL - and that would result in a miss.

 

[dr_dave]

Spidey,

Thank you very much for sharing. I hope we will finally get to a better understanding of CTE, so more people might embrace it. I have additional questions below, based on your comments.

"Thick Hit"

dr_dave, concerning a "thin" hit:
1. Align the cue 1 tip to the right of the CB center through the right edge of the OB.
Spidey:
Not true.

OK, then what is done instead?

dr_dave:
2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line, using a 10-12 inch bridge length
Spidey:
Not true. Bridge length mentioned is usually the range - but not always, esp. closer shots.

I included a range, because bridge length can obviously have a large impact on how much a pivot affects the final aiming line (depending on how you pivot). If I follow the procedure with one bridge length, and repeat the procedure with a different bridge length, I will get a totally different result!

dr_dave:
3. Pivot the cue (without shifting the bridge at all, so the cue rotates about the fixed bridge-pivot point), until the cue is pointed directly through the center of the CB.
Spidey:
Almost never. You almost never turn from the bridge - depends on the length of shot. The edge used can affect your pivot.

Please be more clear on "almost" (when?) and "depends on the length of the shot" (how?) and "edge used" (I thought the OB only had 2 well-defined edges).

dr_dave:
4. Stroke perfectly straight along this line.
Spidey:
True. You can also "crash" the vertical planes together with the turned cue.

Please define "crash the vertical planes together"


"Half-ball Hit"

dr_dave:
1. Align the cue through the center of the CB and through the right edge of the OB.

2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line. The bridge length can be anything for this shot since there is no pivot.

3. Stroke perfectly straight along this center-to-edge line.

Spidey:
Although this is true to make the ball - it's not true for the system. Since this part isn't a secret, you should pivot on ALL shots - even this one. Reason being: How do you KNOW it's a 1/2 ball hit? Some 1/2 balls hits you can't perceive. You can pivot either from right to left or left to right.

Would you really pivot with an exact 1/2-ball hit, where the cue needs to be aligned exactly center-to-edge? !!!
What do you do differently for a shot a little less than a half-ball hit (e.g., a 35 degree cut) vs. a shot a little more than a half-ball hit (e.g., a 25 degree cut)?


"Thin Hit"

dr_dave:
1. Align the cue 1 tip to the left of the CB center through the right edge of the OB.
Spidey:
Not true.

OK, then what is done instead?

dr_dave:
2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line, using a 10-12 inch bridge length.
Spidey:
Mostly; however, it depends on the shot length

OK, how much should the bridge length change, and when?

dr_dave:
3. Pivot the cue (without shifting the bridge at all, so the cue rotates about the fixed bridge-pivot point), until the cue is pointed directly through the center of the CB.
Spidey:
Almost never.

Then how much do you pivot for different shots (i.e., how much before and after "center" do you stop), and when do you pivot exactly to the center?

dr_dave:
4. Stroke perfectly straight along this line.
Spidey:
Yes, true. Or, you can crash the vertical planes together.

Why would you "crash vertical planes together" (honestly, this blows my mind) instead of just "stroke the cue straight"?

dr_dave:
If you follow the procedures above exactly, you will make shots within certain limited ranges of angles.
Spidey:
True - because you're pivoting "randomly."

I'm not sure what you mean. The procedure above has a clearly defined pivot. How do you define your pivot differently, and how do you change it just the right amount for a wide range of shots?

dr_dave:
However, you will miss most shots outside of these limited ranges, unless the OB is very close to the pocket and/or the pockets are huge (so significant "pocket cheating" is possible).
Spidey:
True - based on the technique you mentioned.

I'm glad we agree on this. Now we have a reason to improve the procedure (with specifics).

dr_dave:
Now, you can make the procedures work if you compensate a little as the cut angle changes. For example, you can adjust your bridge length (this has a huge effect on the results of the pivot step per Diagram 4 in my December ‘08 BD article)
Spidey:
Never wanna mess with that unless it's tight quarters

So you agree different bridge lengths will have different effects on any pivot? Sometimes, aren't we required to use different bridge lengths (e.g., because of surrounding balls or rails), and don't some people prefer a shorter bridge length with a softer shot?

What is different about your procedure when you are in "tight quarters"?

dr_dave:
modify the starting tip position a little, pivot slightly less or slightly more relative to the CB center,
Spidey:
Nah - it should always be the same.

OK, if it is not 1 tip, then where should it be?

dr_dave:
and/or you can shift your bridge hand slightly during the pivot (e.g., by pivoting with your hips or body) to create a different effective pivot point farther back or closer up from the bridge.
Spidey:
This happens inside of your bridge--- your bridge hand shouldn't shift - but you SHOULD do the above mentioned technique. That's where people get lost - they always rotate the cue from the bridge (which almost never happens).

I think this is the key to the system ... deforming your bridge just the right amount during the pivot to achieve the exact line of aim required. Does this come only with practice, or are there some guidelines that can help?

dr_dave:
You can also “air pivot” where you make subtle changes to all of this stuff intuitively as you come down into the shot (in which case you place your bridge and cue along the required line of aim of the shot with center-ball alignment, without using the separate tip-offset-and-pivot steps). Then, the system can work perfectly for any shot at the table, provided you can judge, perceive, and apply the subtle differences from one shot to another (in which case you don’t need an aiming system).
Spidey:
This is developed over time - you actually turn the cue while standing, it's hard to explain. You do the tip offset and pivot steps--you do everything, just not on the table. Hard to explain to someone who hasn't done this for years. This is advanced stuff... not something taught to beginning people.

Thank you for this straightforward answer. i think this is important. The system is not totally prescribed by guidelines and procedures. You must develop the pivot "feel" through practice.

Spidey:
The side of the ball from which you setup is a variable "traditionally" but it can be one side or the other all of the time based on whether you're a right hander or left once you learn a more advanced pivot.

I don't have a clue how this works, but I would like to hear a brief description.

Spidey:
There's no mentioned of edges here and there's a ton to say. There's technically an infinite number of edges to a circle; but for simplicity's sake - let's just say there are 360. The moment your body/head moves slightly to the left or right--- you're seeing a different edge. Your body's relation to the "reference line" is a variable.

Someone can read what I write and say, "WOW - there's a lot there... not just as simple as pivot and make!"

Honestly, I can't fathom how anybody can be taught to deal with so many variables. I agree with you: CTE is not as simple as: align, pivot, make.


Spidey:
There is a lot to know with CTE if you really wanna learn the guts of it. It's not a 2 min lesson. It's like poker-- I can teach you the hands in 2 minutes but you'll never win a bracelet for a long time. HOWEVER, the variables are based on absolute references instead of invisible points in 3-D space. That's what makes it so repeatable - and so impressive. However, you run through the steps instantly when you know them. At the highest level --- you think: which side of the CTEL, how close is the OB...ok, pivot.

Once you understand how your eyes see the reference lines and you can make a sighting correction (unless you're lucky-- which is a body adjustment not a system adjustment), which is a constant on every single shot. Many people think they "SEE" the CTEL, but they don't. That's what I mean.

I like poker. Maybe I should just stick to that. :wink:

Spider:
I hope this gives you a better insight.

It does. I think I now have more questions than when we started, but I think that is good. I certainly appreciate your willingness to openly discuss CTE. I also appreciate the time and effort this takes ... it certainly took me a long time to put together this reply (when I should be getting real work done instead).

Regards from your friend (I hope),
Dave

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Lots of GREAT INFORMATION here for FREE.....NOT 80 BUCKS.LOL

 

[Clark_the_Shark]

I can actually talk all day on this exact technique. This is something that is never discussed openly because so few people really do this effectively. This is what I call crashing vertical planes--- where you have an OB plane and a vision plane and crash them flat against each other with a turned cue.

This is how I shoot every shot - but that's just me.

You're right Spidey... very few people DO do this effectively because most people are taught incorrectly to parallel shift their cue to apply English. And those that don't (Joe Tucker & Colin Colenso) fail to mention that even though you may think that BHE and the swiping technique compensate EXACTLY for all shots, THEY JUST DON'T unless you adjust your bridge length for every speed shot. And, people don't or can't do this very well because we don't have a good representation of what speed is what, there's too many variables of speed to completely grasp anymore than soft, med, hard. Even though I use some sort of application for Back Hand English and/or Last Stroke English, I STILL have to use FEEL compensation for adjusting for SOME squirt, swerve, and both Cut Induced Throw & English Induced Throw.

 

[8pack]

cte

SpiderWebComm,,Dave i thought you wrote somewhere in one of your posts that cte was exactly like RonV Method.Rons method you can explain in 2 sentences.Why cant cte be explained so easy?You sound like you wanna help and dont want to help in the same sentence.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

SpiderWebComm,,Dave i thought you wrote somewhere in one of your posts that cte was exactly like RonV Method.Rons method you can explain in 2 sentences.Why cant cte be explained so easy?You sound like you wanna help and dont want to help in the same sentence.

The two systems are the same--- the pivot direction is different and the method for finding the outermost edge is explained differently - but the same.

It's honestly not my place to even get into any of this stuff. At the same time, I can't let some of the completely incorrect statements go unchallenged.

I use Ron's sighting with a pro1 pivot (always pivot from the left-to-right). It's the most repeatable.

 

[Clark_the_Shark]

I might have a chance to go out and see Hal Houle sometime before winter here. Do you think he'll let me video tape the encounter so that I don't forget what he teaches? That would be the most beneficial to us all.

Also, Spidey, I know you are a little tight lipped about whatever system you know (thanks by the way for what you have provided so far) so if we can't get the information we need from you for whatever reason, is there a real source that we can get all of the info from? Say other than Hal if we don't have the pleasure to meet him in person? What about learning Ron V.'s system?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I might have a chance to go out and see Hal Houle sometime before winter here. Do you think he'll let me video tape the encounter so that I don't forget what he teaches? That would be the most beneficial to us all.

Also, Spidey, I know you are a little tight lipped about whatever system you know (thanks by the way for what you have provided so far) so if we can't get the information we need from you for whatever reason, is there a real source that we can get all of the info from? Say other than Hal if we don't have the pleasure to meet him in person? What about learning Ron V.'s system?

RonV's method is ingenious. So is pro1.

Ron or Stan.

Neither will get you far unless you REALLY understand how you see and perceive lines at a table. JoeT helped me a lot with that. I think my understanding of this type of info comes from multiple people. All of these guys have a piece of the pie.

 

[8pack]

RonV's method is ingenious. So is pro1.

Ron or Stan.

Neither will get you far unless you REALLY understand how you see and perceive lines at a table. JoeT helped me a lot with that. I think my understanding of this type of info comes from multiple people. All of these guys have a piece of the pie.

Dave would these be Geometry - Lines ,,,,,,?

 

[dr_dave]

Spidey,

Are you willing to answer some of these questions and fill in some of the gaps (see below)?

Thanks,
Dave

quoted from dr_dave:

Thank you very much for sharing. I hope we will finally get to a better understanding of CTE, so more people might embrace it. I have additional questions below, based on your comments.

"Thick Hit"

dr_dave, concerning a "thin" hit:
1. Align the cue 1 tip to the right of the CB center through the right edge of the OB.
Spidey:
Not true.

OK, then what is done instead?

dr_dave:
2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line, using a 10-12 inch bridge length
Spidey:
Not true. Bridge length mentioned is usually the range - but not always, esp. closer shots.

I included a range, because bridge length can obviously have a large impact on how much a pivot affects the final aiming line (depending on how you pivot). If I follow the procedure with one bridge length, and repeat the procedure with a different bridge length, I will get a totally different result!

dr_dave:
3. Pivot the cue (without shifting the bridge at all, so the cue rotates about the fixed bridge-pivot point), until the cue is pointed directly through the center of the CB.
Spidey:
Almost never. You almost never turn from the bridge - depends on the length of shot. The edge used can affect your pivot.

Please be more clear on "almost" (when?) and "depends on the length of the shot" (how?) and "edge used" (I thought the OB only had 2 well-defined edges).

dr_dave:
4. Stroke perfectly straight along this line.
Spidey:
True. You can also "crash" the vertical planes together with the turned cue.

Please define "crash the vertical planes together"


"Half-ball Hit"

dr_dave:
1. Align the cue through the center of the CB and through the right edge of the OB.

2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line. The bridge length can be anything for this shot since there is no pivot.

3. Stroke perfectly straight along this center-to-edge line.

Spidey:
Although this is true to make the ball - it's not true for the system. Since this part isn't a secret, you should pivot on ALL shots - even this one. Reason being: How do you KNOW it's a 1/2 ball hit? Some 1/2 balls hits you can't perceive. You can pivot either from right to left or left to right.

Would you really pivot with an exact 1/2-ball hit, where the cue needs to be aligned exactly center-to-edge? !!!
What do you do differently for a shot a little less than a half-ball hit (e.g., a 35 degree cut) vs. a shot a little more than a half-ball hit (e.g., a 25 degree cut)?


"Thin Hit"

dr_dave:
1. Align the cue 1 tip to the left of the CB center through the right edge of the OB.
Spidey:
Not true.

OK, then what is done instead?

dr_dave:
2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line, using a 10-12 inch bridge length.
Spidey:
Mostly; however, it depends on the shot length

OK, how much should the bridge length change, and when?

dr_dave:
3. Pivot the cue (without shifting the bridge at all, so the cue rotates about the fixed bridge-pivot point), until the cue is pointed directly through the center of the CB.
Spidey:
Almost never.

Then how much do you pivot for different shots (i.e., how much before and after "center" do you stop), and when do you pivot exactly to the center?

dr_dave:
4. Stroke perfectly straight along this line.
Spidey:
Yes, true. Or, you can crash the vertical planes together.

Why would you "crash vertical planes together" (honestly, this blows my mind) instead of just "stroke the cue straight"?

dr_dave:
If you follow the procedures above exactly, you will make shots within certain limited ranges of angles.
Spidey:
True - because you're pivoting "randomly."

I'm not sure what you mean. The procedure above has a clearly defined pivot. How do you define your pivot differently, and how do you change it just the right amount for a wide range of shots?

dr_dave:
However, you will miss most shots outside of these limited ranges, unless the OB is very close to the pocket and/or the pockets are huge (so significant "pocket cheating" is possible).
Spidey:
True - based on the technique you mentioned.

I'm glad we agree on this. Now we have a reason to improve the procedure (with specifics).

dr_dave:
Now, you can make the procedures work if you compensate a little as the cut angle changes. For example, you can adjust your bridge length (this has a huge effect on the results of the pivot step per Diagram 4 in my December ‘08 BD article)
Spidey:
Never wanna mess with that unless it's tight quarters

So you agree different bridge lengths will have different effects on any pivot? Sometimes, aren't we required to use different bridge lengths (e.g., because of surrounding balls or rails), and don't some people prefer a shorter bridge length with a softer shot?

What is different about your procedure when you are in "tight quarters"?

dr_dave:
modify the starting tip position a little, pivot slightly less or slightly more relative to the CB center,
Spidey:
Nah - it should always be the same.

OK, if it is not 1 tip, then where should it be?

dr_dave:
and/or you can shift your bridge hand slightly during the pivot (e.g., by pivoting with your hips or body) to create a different effective pivot point farther back or closer up from the bridge.
Spidey:
This happens inside of your bridge--- your bridge hand shouldn't shift - but you SHOULD do the above mentioned technique. That's where people get lost - they always rotate the cue from the bridge (which almost never happens).

I think this is the key to the system ... deforming your bridge just the right amount during the pivot to achieve the exact line of aim required. Does this come only with practice, or are there some guidelines that can help?

dr_dave:
You can also “air pivot” where you make subtle changes to all of this stuff intuitively as you come down into the shot (in which case you place your bridge and cue along the required line of aim of the shot with center-ball alignment, without using the separate tip-offset-and-pivot steps). Then, the system can work perfectly for any shot at the table, provided you can judge, perceive, and apply the subtle differences from one shot to another (in which case you don’t need an aiming system).
Spidey:
This is developed over time - you actually turn the cue while standing, it's hard to explain. You do the tip offset and pivot steps--you do everything, just not on the table. Hard to explain to someone who hasn't done this for years. This is advanced stuff... not something taught to beginning people.

Thank you for this straightforward answer. i think this is important. The system is not totally prescribed by guidelines and procedures. You must develop the pivot "feel" through practice.

Spidey:
The side of the ball from which you setup is a variable "traditionally" but it can be one side or the other all of the time based on whether you're a right hander or left once you learn a more advanced pivot.

I don't have a clue how this works, but I would like to hear a brief description.

Spidey:
There's no mentioned of edges here and there's a ton to say. There's technically an infinite number of edges to a circle; but for simplicity's sake - let's just say there are 360. The moment your body/head moves slightly to the left or right--- you're seeing a different edge. Your body's relation to the "reference line" is a variable.

Someone can read what I write and say, "WOW - there's a lot there... not just as simple as pivot and make!"

Honestly, I can't fathom how anybody can be taught to deal with so many variables. I agree with you: CTE is not as simple as: align, pivot, make.


Spidey:
There is a lot to know with CTE if you really wanna learn the guts of it. It's not a 2 min lesson. It's like poker-- I can teach you the hands in 2 minutes but you'll never win a bracelet for a long time. HOWEVER, the variables are based on absolute references instead of invisible points in 3-D space. That's what makes it so repeatable - and so impressive. However, you run through the steps instantly when you know them. At the highest level --- you think: which side of the CTEL, how close is the OB...ok, pivot.

Once you understand how your eyes see the reference lines and you can make a sighting correction (unless you're lucky-- which is a body adjustment not a system adjustment), which is a constant on every single shot. Many people think they "SEE" the CTEL, but they don't. That's what I mean.

I like poker. Maybe I should just stick to that. :wink:

Spider:
I hope this gives you a better insight.

It does. I think I now have more questions than when we started, but I think that is good. I certainly appreciate your willingness to openly discuss CTE. I also appreciate the time and effort this takes ... it certainly took me a long time to put together this reply (when I should be getting real work done instead).

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I'm feeling really wore-out with this aiming/sighting thing.

I think I did what I wanted to... to show how incomplete your CTE information is. It's not my intention to write a how-to guide on here --- nor will I. I promise I'm not knocking-- but there's so much you don't know, yet you/PJ keep referring to CTE as geometrically incorrect (without the knowledge required to make that determination).

All I ask, humbly and nicely-- is just refrain from that until you have enough information to make that determination. That's all

I think a lot of good came from these two threads and I think a lot of new information likely surfaced for a lot of people on here.

The only advice I can give is to keep an open mind. There's an entire realm to pool that not many people on here are familiar with.... no looking down a line, not looking down the center of the CB, maybe not even stroking in the direction your cue is pointing. You can either bah-humbug it and ignore it (which is prob the move for many people) or you can study and learn the theory and find out why so many people play really well with something so alien. I'm not trying to be the cheerleader here on this stuff-- although I'm a defender of it because I know it's the nuts of all nuts...king puba nuts, if you would. I defend it because the group of people that knock it don't even KNOW it --- which gets me calling "bullshit" when it's knocked.... which then starts these internet arguments.

I seem to be under a magnifying glass here - and I hate to be a burnt ant. I do know all of this info inside-out, around and through and then some----hell, I might even know it all with this stuff, who knows. However, I'm not your guy to learn it. I'm not a teacher.... I hate teaching. Most importantly, it's NOT mine to teach, I didn't invent it, it's not my information and everyone who does know this stuff like me is likely praying I just STFU and keep silent.

In retrospect, keeping quiet is prob the move... but my ego just can't shut up when someone says something that's flat-out not-true (while acting like they KNOW) when 1000s of people follow their posts like gospel (not calling any one person out-- just the few guys like Dr. Dave / PJ who are REALLY knowledgeable...just not with this stuff).

This is a stalemate because the super smart guys who know everything-but this stuff won't take the steps required to find the guys who know and learn. They won't invest a few years to study the info. Instead, they want to be spoonfed the info from people (not me) who don't wanna give it to them like that.

I prob have over 1000 hours into this over the past 3 years. There isn't a day where I'm not looking at something relating to the topics discussed.

WHY?

Because it took me less than 15 mins to know there was something there when I was first exposed to this. Impossible shots would just fly-in. Why? Was I lucky? Of course not. Well, I was lucky because I knew how to pivot before my first lesson-- so in that sense, I was lucky.

If you guys would peel yourselves away from the computer and grind this stuff out for a month or two, you'll come up to speed quickly. Most of the info can be found somewhere on azb-- you just have to look. Or, get some lessons from guys who devote their lives to studying these methods.

The alternative is just keep doing what you're doing. If you're playing fine-- you have nothing to worry about or change, right?

All I ask is RESPECT this stuff because eventually... I'm sure everything will be spelled out (just not by me) in great details. Otherwise, you'll be like Bill Clinton swearing he never had sex with Monica--- and someone will show you the stain and you'll be embarrassed when they retrieve your old posts on here. That's all. You don't have to like it or learn it-- just respect it if you don't care to learn it. If you learn everything and then knock it--- and knock it intelligently, I'd never open my mouth ever.

 

[Clark_the_Shark]

Good Post Spidey... if you would just tell us where to go to get these "lessons" about stuff that you know so much about, I'm sure we won't ask you another question.

 

[dr_dave]

I'm feeling really wore-out with this aiming/sighting thing.

Well, I hope you or others will, at some point, try to answer some of the important questions that still remain about the basis of CTE. Without concrete answers to some of the basic questions about CTE, CTE will continue to remain as a "mysterious religion" that can only be understood through extensive tutelage from a disciple. If you can't explain the basics of how CTE works with a couple of simple sentences (or even a couple of paragraphs) and/or one or two diagrams, then the system is probably too complicated for most people to learn. We are not asking for all of the "implementation secrets" that an instructor can teach ... only a basic description that sounds reasonable (i.e., worthy of additional study).

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Well, I hope you or others will, at some point, try to answer some of the important questions that still remain about the basis of CTE.

For future reference, and for the record, here are some of the important unanswered questions that still remain:

quoted from dr_dave:

"THICK HIT"

dr_dave, concerning a "thin" hit:
1. Align the cue 1 tip to the right of the CB center through the right edge of the OB.
Spidey:
Not true.

OK, then what is done instead?

dr_dave:
3. Pivot the cue (without shifting the bridge at all, so the cue rotates about the fixed bridge-pivot point), until the cue is pointed directly through the center of the CB.
Spidey:
Almost never. You almost never turn from the bridge - depends on the length of shot. The edge used can affect your pivot.

Please be more clear on "almost" (when?) and "depends on the length of the shot" (how?) and "edge used" (I thought the OB only had 2 well-defined edges).

dr_dave:
4. Stroke perfectly straight along this line.
Spidey:
True. You can also "crash" the vertical planes together with the turned cue.

Please define "crash the vertical planes together"


"THIN HIT"

dr_dave:
1. Align the cue 1 tip to the left of the CB center through the right edge of the OB.
Spidey:
Not true.

OK, then what is done instead?

dr_dave:
2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line, using a 10-12 inch bridge length.
Spidey:
Mostly; however, it depends on the shot length

OK, how much should the bridge length change, and when?

dr_dave:
3. Pivot the cue (without shifting the bridge at all, so the cue rotates about the fixed bridge-pivot point), until the cue is pointed directly through the center of the CB.
Spidey:
Almost never.

Then how much do you pivot for different shots (i.e., how much before and after "center" do you stop), and when do you pivot exactly to the center?


"GENERAL"

dr_dave:
If you follow the procedures above exactly, you will make shots within certain limited ranges of angles.
Spidey:
True - because you're pivoting "randomly."

I'm not sure what you mean. The procedure above has a clearly defined pivot. How do you define your pivot differently, and how do you change it just the right amount for a wide range of shots?

dr_dave:
Now, you can make the procedures work if you compensate a little as the cut angle changes. For example, you can adjust your bridge length (this has a huge effect on the results of the pivot step per Diagram 4 in my December ‘08 BD article)
Spidey:
Never wanna mess with that unless it's tight quarters

So you agree different bridge lengths will have different effects on any pivot? Sometimes, aren't we required to use different bridge lengths (e.g., because of surrounding balls or rails), and don't some people prefer a shorter bridge length with a softer shot?

What is different about your procedure when you are in "tight quarters"?

dr_dave:
modify the starting tip position a little, pivot slightly less or slightly more relative to the CB center,
Spidey:
Nah - it should always be the same.

OK, if it is not 1 tip, then where should it be?

dr_dave:
and/or you can shift your bridge hand slightly during the pivot (e.g., by pivoting with your hips or body) to create a different effective pivot point farther back or closer up from the bridge.
Spidey:
This happens inside of your bridge--- your bridge hand shouldn't shift - but you SHOULD do the above mentioned technique. That's where people get lost - they always rotate the cue from the bridge (which almost never happens).

I think this is the key to the system ... deforming your bridge just the right amount during the pivot to achieve the exact line of aim required. Does this come only with practice, or are there some guidelines that can help?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Spidey:
All I ask, humbly and nicely-- is just refrain from [referring to CTE as geometrically incorrect] until you have enough information to make that determination.

As soon as you stop claiming CTE's geometric correctness while refusing to provide the information to support that extraordinary claim.

Frankly, I think we have enough information to determine that CTE is most likely not geometrically correct. The information that would show CTE is geometrically correct is always exactly what's missing (because that's the only part that's "secret"). That's too convenient for me, and I say it's a bullshit excuse.

pj
chgo

 

[cookie man]

As soon as you stop claiming CTE's geometric correctness while refusing to provide the information to support that extraordinary claim.

Frankly, I think we have enough information to determine that CTE is most likely not geometrically correct. The information that would show CTE is geometrically correct is always exactly what's missing (because that's the only part that's "secret"). That's too convenient for me, and I say it's a bullshit excuse.

pj
chgo

Lets see your little diagrams showing its not correct.

 

[cookie man]

After viewing Eric's presentation and from my memory of watching many pro players at the table in competitive matches I now understand why Hal says that many (if not all) Pros use a variation of his system. If you pay partcular attention to some of Effren Reyes' shots when shown from behind the shooter's position it would appear that he (and some others) do indeed use Hal's suggestions or a variation of his approach.

Like many things in life I think that most people are honest when they make a statement. We have a difficult time understanding what they mean. It may or may not be true that many pros use a variation of Hal's system, It does appear that they use something similar when you observe their initial cue tip placement.

Have any video of efren or others to confirm this?