Cue Design Theft This Crap Needs To Stop!!!!

[PMS]

followed john bartons instructions and reported these 4 auctions, REP to you, Manwon


http://cgi.ebay.com/SAVE-400-NOTTAM...in_0?hash=item5634f14368&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Copy of the Meucci Rose Cue

http://cgi.ebay.com/SAVE-600-ROSE-c...in_0?hash=item2ea36bc0e3&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14

Copy of a Meucci HOF 1

http://cgi.ebay.com/SAVE-400-NOTTAM...in_0?hash=item56350d274b&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14

Copy of a Meucci Gambler Cue

http://cgi.ebay.com/GAMBLER-CUE-SAV...in_0?hash=item56351baf8f&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14

 

[Myk]

OK, flame away if you must, but here's my opinion on Carlscues and the business practices they have there.

I have been shopping for a few weeks trying to find a Joss cue. I was hitting Ebay hard looking for a deal, and I ran across a Carlscues auction for a cue that was advertised as "unknown brand". The ad said it looked like a Joss.

Lie #1, because Joss cues do not look like they have stickers all over them.

The cue was selling super low so I decided to try to buy it if it went cheap, which it did.

They charged me 14.95 for "shipping and handling". I had the cue in about 7 or 8 days after paying ( not that bad I guess ). It was in it's plastic bag with tape holding the end of the bag shut, thrown into a USPS triangular tube, bouncing around with absolutely NO padding. Is that the "handling" part?

Next on my list is the fact that they required me to pay 2.95 for insurance on the cue. I wouldn't have wanted it if I had a choice on a 20 something dollar cue, but there it was. And there was NO insurance on the shipment. I have recieved insured parcels before, and the fact that it's insured is displayed on the package.


The overall quality of the cue is pretty much what you would expect. The ferrule is too large for the shaft, and the layered tip is delaminating right out of the box. The shaft feels like it was finish sanded with 60 grit paper. To even make the cue semi playable, a person would have to have the shaft turned by a REAL professional, and it would probably not be worth the cash because I doubt if the shaft wood is aged and conditioned, and it would probably be a pretzel within the first year.

Maybe I could buy a factory second Joss shaft from Carls for it. A factory second shaft for a Joss did come from the Joss factory, right? Right?

I also went through Carls feedback. Deep. 100 pages deep.

He didn't have much negative feedback, but what there was seemed to be mostly on cues.

This is just my own experience and opinion, take from it what you want and leave the rest.

 

[watchez]

.

None of the items I carry are knock off items to my knowledge, because it go's against my principles to sell item's that are knock offs of American Made items. I do not sell any products here or on eBay, I only sell directly face to face with people who walk into my store, I prefer to do business this way.

Yet you have an I-Trader rating on this board and obviously sell your wares to people you haven't met. You have also stated openly on the board that you can "offer better prices" on certain mass produced items.

You do not need to have a financial incentive to put yourself on a moral pedestal. I certainly believe that you get your jollies out of stirring the pot more than anything else.

And to be clear, I am against design theft, I am also against hypocrisy, which is what you are practicing here, in my opinion of course.

It truly is amazing how much BS the original OP states hoping that no one picks up on it.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Yopu know the funny thing is bot Meucci, and the Copy Cat who are doing the FAUX Meucci Designs are both DECAL CUES. Guy i know has a Meucci Gambler that got wet in a Rain Storm, the REAL MEUCCI started to bubble, and the Decal came off. SAD that Meucci would do a 500 BUCK DECAL CUE.

 

[manwon]

It truly is amazing how much BS the original OP states hoping that no one picks up on it.

Come on Big Guy, if you have nothing of value to add go have another Cheese Burger and a Coke, oh you had better make it large size to go with you Big Bank Roll and your waist size now that is certainly not any BS!!!!!! :grin:

 

[manwon]

Well, I see that this is not going to be one of those threads that I can participate in without you attacking my character. I didn't attack you personally Craig. I said that it's sad when ANYONE who is a dealer would denounce a Carl's Cues without also denouncing their own suppliers who do the same thing. If the shoe fits then I would certainly hope you would consider the point and be reflective about it rather than defensive.

The dispute between Mr. Justis and I has nothing to do with this discussion. Mr. Justis feels one way and I feel another and I have made my peace with it. I find it distasteful that you attempt to fan the flames and further deflect from THIS discussion.

As for your comment about wives who continue to be abused I hope that you have enough decency to see how much in poor taste that comment is. You should know by now that the only one who gets abused when you and I argue is you. I gave you the opportunity to reflect on the other side of the coin in private. In my eyes when you facilitate theft, you become the thief. You portray yourself as an expert in the industry, so I find it hard to believe that you don't know who originated every product and who is stealing those designs.

The fact is Craig, whether you are ignorant of it or not, which I find hard to believe since you always make statements that are intended to make us believe that you have extensive information about the billiard industry, J&J copies other people's products. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt and ask one simple question.

If you are now made aware that J&J carries any product that is a direct ripoff of an AMERICAN company's products would you denounce J&J in the same way that you denounce Carl's Cues?

Joe Porper is an American. His cases have been knocked off by everyone including J&J. There you have one clear example of a company whose products you carry, whom you have openly praised on this board, and who sells a direct knockoff of an American company's product.

How do you feel about that?


Edit: For your reference Craig, this is the J&J page where they list cases knocked off from Porper. http://www.jjcue.com/cases4.htm
The picture from that page:

So, will you denounce J&J and stop selling their merchandise because they practice design theft against American made products?

The dispute between Mr. Justis and I has nothing to do with this discussion. Mr. Justis feels one way and I feel another and I have made my peace with it. I find it distasteful that you attempt to fan the flames and further deflect from THIS discussion

I also find it distasteful that you are trying to deflect the situation above, and yes it certainly does have something to do with this thread. First J & J is a customer of Mr. Justis according to you, and second Jack accused you of Stealing his design for the Jay Flowers Tribute cases and this thread is about design theft. In addition to the fact that you are totally against J & J and they buy from Jack. So, I suppose that everything you have said about me for buying from J & J America also applies to Jack Justis?


As for your comment about wives who continue to be abused I hope that you have enough decency to see how much in poor taste that comment is.

John Battered Wives syndrom is a disorder, and my comments were directed at your behavior so lets not make it more than it is John, but if you want to try and gain sympathy good luck!!:wink:


In my eyes when you facilitate theft, you become the thief.
Joe Porper is an American. His cases have been knocked off by everyone including J&J. There you have one clear example of a company whose products you carry, whom you have openly praised on this board, and who sells a direct knock off of an American company's product.

Like I said previously I do not sell items that are clearly knock offs, and I do agree when you facilitate theft you are a thief. Now with that said what about the entire of line of Porper knock cases that you have personally lined up for Sterling to sell.

http://www.sterling-gaming.com/sterling-cases-popular-hard-cases-c-43_64_74.html

Well John, since you obviously know they are Porper Knock off cases and since you over see the production of items made for Sterling in China where does that leave you John, does it make you a thief?

So, will you denounce J&J and stop selling their merchandise because they practice design theft against American made products?[/QUO

Like I said John I do not sell their knock off items or anyones else's, but I think you should clean up your own act before you get involved in threads like this. You accuse J & J of this and that and Sterling the company you are working and buying for is doing the same thing, all I can say is John your hands are dirty. Well I guess you learned a great deal from being ripped of by other companies, I suppose since you could not beat them you had to join them, and I find that really sad!!!!!

 

[JoeyInCali]

People like Skins have a lot of beef against those knock-offs from China.
As soon as one his designed cues hit the market, the decal knock-offs come out.
Joe Gold decal cues have been out for a long time.
Same with SW decal cues.

Those who think they are getting a good deal for $200 or so, take that money and get a sneaky pete made. At least the quality sneaky won't rattle a few weeks later.
You'll have to pay for a new tip and ferrule a week or so after you buy those decal cues anyway.

 

[snipershot]

Ol John Boy pm'ed me this wonderfull offer:
Hey asshole. I will be sure to give you my schedule in the coming year. You are more than welcome to come and insult me to my face.

I bet you will be a chickenshit. Or will you live up to your handle and shoot me from a 1000 yards away?

Which I replied:
Ive been saving my money for bail c**ksucker. I cant ****in wait you piece of shit.

Depending on when and where I meet up with this assclown, I may need to start a bail donation thread.


Joe

 

[ctyhntr]

Actually, all Honda Accords sold in the US comes from the Marysville plant in Ohio. I could be wrong, but I believe BMW's factory in Spartanburg South Carolina is their sole factory for X5, X6, and Z4 models.

Let's return all the Honda Accords, Toyota Corolla's, BMW's, Volkswagen, Swiss Clocks, Computers, Calculators, Printers, Scanners, MP3's, cellphones, toasters, microwaves, silverware, glassware, china, compact discs, stereos, speakers, turntables, and almost all or 99 percent of the stuff we have at home. Try to find all these items made in America.

What a bunch of BULL$HIT.....!!!!.

 

[woody_968]

Depending on when and where I meet up with this assclown, I may need to start a bail donation thread.


Joe

Do we need to have a benefit tourney? :wink:

 

[JoeyInCali]

Depending on when and where I meet up with this assclown, I may need to start a bail donation thread.

Why would you need bail ?
Two men duke it out fair and square. Loser gets up and shakes the hand of the winner.
Grown men walk away. Loser licks wounds and learns lesson and is man enough to take his hard lesson.

 

[rackem]

People like Skins have a lot of beef against those knock-offs from China.
As soon as one his designed cues hit the market, the decal knock-offs come out.
Joe Gold decal cues have been out for a long time.
Same with SW decal cues.

Those who think they are getting a good deal for $200 or so, take that money and get a sneaky pete made. At least the quality sneaky won't rattle a few weeks later.
You'll have to pay for a new tip and ferrule a week or so after you buy those decal cues anyway.

I hope you don't think that the cues with the SW look that I sell are decal. They are real inlay and veneer. Same with the 4 pointers I offer.
I also hope you don't really think the tips and ferrules on my decal cues are not up to par. They are just fine and ready for years of play. :smile:
Anytime you want to check them out let me know.
:smile:Rackem hears the fireworks from Disneyland also.

 

[snipershot]

Why would you need bail ?
Two men duke it out fair and square. Loser gets up and shakes the hand of the winner.
Grown men walk away. Loser licks wounds and learns lesson and is man enough to take his hard lesson.

You just never know. It doesnt hurt to prepare for all possibilities:wink:.


Joe

 

[LC3]

No, the cheapo humidors are a testament to why proper education has it's place. If you raise a nation of sheep then it's no wonder why the devious and clever prey on them.

In terms of their low quality, you're correct. But here's what I said: "I vowed never to consider one and to advise others against them because of their unethical practice of copying the exterior design of other companies' humidors." It's their being blatant copies, not the low quality, that prompted my commitment. The quality issue is ultimately a personal decision that each consumer needs to make. I'll certainly do my part in warning people about the inferior quality and the likelihood of compromised function, but that's not why I mentioned protectionism.

 

[conetip]

It is interesting that the cue pics of the copy cues , are not very clear on the facing of the joints. The two pics that give a small glimpse of the quality of the face work show it to be very bad at best.
If they can't get the joint faces correct, you know they have not much else correct either.
As far as knock off copy goes, unless you have copyright on your design you don't have much to stand on.
Mike had a patent on his one piece ferrule tip design, and that did not stop people copying and ripping Mikes idea off. Alot of cuemakers and some on the AZ forum openly copied Mikes ferrule tip for break and jump cues.
I am not sure what he has tried to do to stop the theft of his ideas, but I know it is not easy.
There will always be copies and knock off of product. The real problem as I see it ,is not so much the copy as to the prolific amount that is produced and the poor quality that is being sold. Many buyers not being aware of the difference, if it looks the same but is 1/2 the price, alot of consumers will opt to save money not knowing any better.
It is rear that knock off copies are better than the original, but sometimes it does happen.
Neil

 

[manwon]

So if someone knocks off a product and the sales of it hurt Americans then you are against that?

Just trying to nail down your moral criteria here.

Why would you think that Carl's Cues could not "get away" with producing the same cues in the USA?

Are you an attorney now?

I mean seriously, what would stop Carl's Cues from setting up a little cue making shop and sticking decals on the cues and advertising them the exact same way?

I mean I find the way that Carl's Cues is going about this to be despicable, but moreso I find your stance on it to be hypocritical, since you openly support and sell products supplied to you by companies who knock off far more than Carl's Cues is doing.

John are involved with Carl's Cues in some way?

 

[John Barton]

The dispute between Mr. Justis and I has nothing to do with this discussion. Mr. Justis feels one way and I feel another and I have made my peace with it. I find it distasteful that you attempt to fan the flames and further deflect from THIS discussion

I also find it distasteful that you are trying to deflect the situation above, and yes it certainly does have something to do with this thread. First J & J is a customer of Mr. Justis according to you, and second Jack accused you of Stealing his design for the Jay Flowers Tribute cases and this thread is about design theft. In addition to the fact that you are totally against J & J and they buy from Jack. So, I suppose that everything you have said about me for buying from J & J America also applies to Jack Justis?


As for your comment about wives who continue to be abused I hope that you have enough decency to see how much in poor taste that comment is.

John Battered Wives syndrom is a disorder, and my comments were directed at your behavior so lets not make it more than it is John, but if you want to try and gain sympathy good luck!!:wink:


In my eyes when you facilitate theft, you become the thief.
Joe Porper is an American. His cases have been knocked off by everyone including J&J. There you have one clear example of a company whose products you carry, whom you have openly praised on this board, and who sells a direct knock off of an American company's product.

Like I said previously I do not sell items that are clearly knock offs, and I do agree when you facilitate theft you are a thief. Now with that said what about the entire of line of Porper knock cases that you have personally lined up for Sterling to sell.

http://www.sterling-gaming.com/sterling-cases-popular-hard-cases-c-43_64_74.html

Well John, since you obviously know they are Porper Knock off cases and since you over see the production of items made for Sterling in China where does that leave you John, does it make you a thief?

So, will you denounce J&J and stop selling their merchandise because they practice design theft against American made products?[/QUO

Like I said John I do not sell their knock off items or anyones else's, but I think you should clean up your own act before you get involved in threads like this. You accuse J & J of this and that and Sterling the company you are working and buying for is doing the same thing, all I can say is John your hands are dirty. Well I guess you learned a great deal from being ripped of by other companies, I suppose since you could not beat them you had to join them, and I find that really sad!!!!!

You are right. Sterling Gaming and every other distributor carries cases that are Porper knockoffs. I have addressed this issue on here before as concerns my involvement with Sterling Gaming. What I have said is that I inherited the situation and as soon as I can I will be phasing them out and replacing them with other designs. The difference between Sterling Gaming and an "EXPERT" like you is that when they created their catalog they had no idea WHO originated which products. They were then novices in the industry. J&J copies people DELIBERATELY.

Why would you support any company that deliberately knocks off products that are still in the marketplace, still being sold by the originators?

All I have done so far is to improve the quality of the ones we carry so that at least the consumer will be getting a better quality product than the other knockoffs and in my opinion better than the original. And to reiterate because I am sure you missed it the first time, as soon as the next catalog comes out we will be beyond the Porper-style cases. I am quite sure that Sterling Gaming's new cases will be the most copied in the coming years.

As I said I have acknowledged this openly.

If you did care to do more than 2 minutes of research then you would have found this. You would have also found that I have been critical of Mr. Justis and his involvement with J&J for the exact same reasons that I am critical of you.

Now you say,

"Like I said John I do not sell their knock off items or anyones else's"

So you selectively choose which items to carry based on which ones are knocked off?

You have never sold a Porper knockoff case?

I mean it's funny that you accuse Carl's cues of being so despicable yet I bet anything you have sold cues and cases that were knocked off from others and that you KNEW full well that the products you sold were knockoffs. Of course I can't prove it, only you know that.

I don't understand why you don't bother to condemn all the other companies who practice design theft when you are so concerned about it.

Starting with yourself.

 

[John Barton]

John are involved with Carl's Cues in some way?

No, are you involved with J&J and the fact that they are ripping off designs?

You support them vigorously on this board.

I know you completely skipped over the part where I said I find Carl's Cues methods despicable.

It's the same thing that sellers of knockoff Instroke cases tried and continue to do even now.

But what I find more despicable is people like you who get on a high horse and preach about it while you then turn around and support even bigger design thieves like J&J.

 

[manwon]

Yet you have an I-Trader rating on this board and obviously sell your wares to people you haven't met. You have also stated openly on the board that you can "offer better prices" on certain mass produced items.

You do not need to have a financial incentive to put yourself on a moral pedestal. I certainly believe that you get your jollies out of stirring the pot more than anything else.

And to be clear, I am against design theft, I am also against hypocrisy, which is what you are practicing here, in my opinion of course.

And to be clear, I am against design theft, I am also against hypocrisy, which is what you are practicing here, in my opinion of course.[/QUOTE]

Well John in my opinion, you are responsible for design theft. I am talking about the entire line of Porper Knock off cases that you over see production of for Sterling Billiards. Now like I said John your hands are dirty, so every time you open your mouth concerning this subject it is Hypocritical.:wink:

 

[John Barton]

It is interesting that the cue pics of the copy cues , are not very clear on the facing of the joints. The two pics that give a small glimpse of the quality of the face work show it to be very bad at best.
If they can't get the joint faces correct, you know they have not much else correct either.
As far as knock off copy goes, unless you have copyright on your design you don't have much to stand on.
Mike had a patent on his one piece ferrule tip design, and that did not stop people copying and ripping Mikes idea off. Alot of cuemakers and some on the AZ forum openly copied Mikes ferrule tip for break and jump cues.
I am not sure what he has tried to do to stop the theft of his ideas, but I know it is not easy.
There will always be copies and knock off of product. The real problem as I see it ,is not so much the copy as to the prolific amount that is produced and the poor quality that is being sold. Many buyers not being aware of the difference, if it looks the same but is 1/2 the price, alot of consumers will opt to save money not knowing any better.
It is rear that knock off copies are better than the original, but sometimes it does happen.
Neil

There is a difference between design theft and innovation. Design theft happens when someone makes a copy of an item with the same or less quality.

Innovation is when someone take influence from a design and comes out with a different product.

Everything that we use is designed through influences from what came before it.

If a knock off happens to be better quality than the original then it's good for the consumers of that product but it's still design theft.

You take a guy like Carl's Cues and he is obviously slimy BUT at least he is open about the fact that he is selling cheap knockoffs. I highly doubt that many people will think that they are getting $700 worth of cue for $29

Actually Mike did not have a patent on the one-piece ferrule design. He had a patent pending when everyone else decided that eliminating the tip was a good idea as well. And he wasn't the first one who did this just the first person who patented it. Pat Fleming was jumping balls with tipless and ferrule-less cues 20 years ago.

There is a whole section of patenting called predatory patents where people patent things that are common practice but no one has patented and then seek to extract back royalties from people who have been doing this.

Patents are not hard to get in the field of billiards. Just because a person has a patent does not mean that it can not be challenged, does not mean that it is valid. Patent examiners have very little time to research and see if the patent is truly an improvement over existing solutions.

Mike's patent has claimed that his one piece ferrule design facilitates a type of shot that was not possible before and this is untrue. The fact is that the same or similar material was used on cues in tip form prior to Mike filing his patent and the performance, which is what patents are concerned with, was the same as what Mike claims his device created for the first time. Basically Mike's patent claims that by eliminating the tip he created a cue which performed better than what was already on the market.

This is not true.

Just want to clear that up. If you go back far enough you can usually find patents that cover almost every type of tip and ferrule system. I have studied billiard patents all the way back to around 1900 or so.

Getting a patent is relatively easy, as far as the billiard industry goes at least. Defending it is expensive and hard to do.

Same goes for trademarks and copyrights.

It's like being born. That's the easy part, living is what's hard.