They're really close , interesting.
Sad thing is they are probably not any worse than a real meucci quality wise.
REP to you...haha
My thoughts exactly, "couldn't be worse than a real moochie, at least its cheaper!"
Cue Design Theft This Crap Needs To Stop!!!!
- Thread starter manwon
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REP to you...haha
My thoughts exactly, "couldn't be worse than a real moochie, at least its cheaper!"
I had forgotten about that guy until I read this thread. I purchased a break shaft from him that was supposed to have a phenollic tip on it. When I got the shaft, it was actually just a plain plastic "tip" that I could scratch with my fingernail. I ended up getting my whole payment back, so I left a neutral feedback rating. He then contacted me and asked me to change my rating to a green positive, so that his record wouldn't suffer, claiming he wasn't aware that the tips weren't phenollic.
You certainly have a point and yes there are plenty of things that must be bought as imports. However, this thread is not designed to bash imports, it is designed to bash those people who sell imports that are made from stolen US designs which hurts US Companies. Now if you want to make my thread more than that it is up to you, my only concern and intent with starting this thread was to show how some Americans are stealing from other Americans. Now that is Bigger Bunch of Bullshit, and I could care less if you agree with it or not!!!!!!
Thanks for your opinion
I appreciate the response, but this thread is not designed to bash imports. So I do not think you really understand, it really has noting to do with cues. It is about Americans who are intentionally having products made in a Foreign country that are almost exact copies of American Made products and then selling them as Not this product or that product. In my opinion this is fraud and while there may be no way to stop them from doing what they are doing, people need to be aware of these shady business practices. Now this crap directly hurts US Companies who are employing US Workers, so again I say this thread is a Buy American thread, at least when it comes to products like those identified. It doesn't matter if it is cues, cases or anything else when an American Made Product is being copied and sold in America to undercut that product I would recommend to buy the American Product. Now, I think most Americans who live and work in this country would agree with that, I hope this clears up what my intent for starting this thread was.
Thanks for your thoughts!
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Now I'm at home and my home computer can view the pics. It must be my work puter that blocks them. The inlays look like stickers if you look close.
A couple of years ago when I was on the market for a quality humidor, I was deciding between an American maker and a Swiss maker. I didn't see a problem with choosing the Swiss maker, because they built humidors of their own high-quality design (considered by many the best on the market), are regarded as the originator of humidors, and at their high prices certainly weren't undercutting anybody. In short, they are a fair, welcome, and inspiring presence in the humidor market. They are a testament to free markets.
Several years earlier when shopping for my first humidor, I ordered what was advertised as a respected company's model. When the humidor arrived, the first thing I noticed was its cheap veneer exterior and crude interior construction that were the exactly the same as the cheapo Asian-made humidors that had been flooding the market. I was outraged and disgusted by the both the manufacturer and the US seller who peddles these shameful knock-offs. I returned it the next day. Although I'd never buy one of these cheapo humidors anyway because of their inferior construction, I vowed never to consider one and to advise others against them because of their unethical practice of copying the exterior design of other companies' humidors. These humidors are an example of why selective protectionism has its place.
Several years earlier when shopping for my first humidor, I ordered what was advertised as a respected company's model. When the humidor arrived, the first thing I noticed was its cheap veneer exterior and crude interior construction that were the exactly the same as the cheapo Asian-made humidors that had been flooding the market. I was outraged and disgusted by the both the manufacturer and the US seller who peddles these shameful knock-offs. I returned it the next day. Although I'd never buy one of these cheapo humidors anyway because of their inferior construction, I vowed never to consider one and to advise others against them because of their unethical practice of copying the exterior design of other companies' humidors. These humidors are an example of why selective protectionism has its place.
http://cgi.ebay.com/LEARN-HOW-I-QUI...in_0?hash=item5635155fae&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14
I wonder what he teaches.
I wonder what he teaches.
Predator Knock Off
If you think the Meucci knock-offs are bad, take a look at this.
http://taiba.en.alibaba.com/productshowimg/223988743-200655260/hand_made_cue.html
This factory from china actually has a complete knock off set of the Predator 3k and 4k series.
Unfortunately, even if Meucci has a design patent, the best they could do would be to get a cease and desist order if the nottamucci design is EXACTLY the same. If they changed the pattern slightly, of changed the colors, there is not much they can do.
To make matters harder, you need permission from the chinese government to sue the factory making them. Unless you have the political clout of Ford, it will never happen. Even IBM couldn't do it.
If you think the Meucci knock-offs are bad, take a look at this.
http://taiba.en.alibaba.com/productshowimg/223988743-200655260/hand_made_cue.html
This factory from china actually has a complete knock off set of the Predator 3k and 4k series.
Unfortunately, even if Meucci has a design patent, the best they could do would be to get a cease and desist order if the nottamucci design is EXACTLY the same. If they changed the pattern slightly, of changed the colors, there is not much they can do.
To make matters harder, you need permission from the chinese government to sue the factory making them. Unless you have the political clout of Ford, it will never happen. Even IBM couldn't do it.
I've owned three Chinese cues. First was a Lucasi from ebay, seller said it rolled straight. Butt was warped. Second was a wal-mart cue I bought to use as a bridge. It's warped but I didn't care. Third was an unknown cue I got off ebay, seller said it rolled straight and was in good condition. Warped and the butt spins 360 degrees.
Other than that, I've had good luck with Chinese cues.
Other than that, I've had good luck with Chinese cues.
John Barton
New member
No you don't. You can file suit in China against any other factory or person. Predator has a legal team in China and a legal presence. They are aggressively pursuing their rights in China.
As for rights in China. You need to understand that every country in the world has it's own laws concerning intellectual property. Countries respect each other's laws in as far as they have treaties with each other.
There is no such thing as automatic protection when you have a United States patent. You have to file your patent worldwide in order for it to be protected legally world wide.
You cannot copyright the design of a pool cue. You can copyright artistic works such as books, paintings, poems, sculptures, etc... and even you could copyright them that copyright extends only as far as the country in which you created the work unless you register your copyright with each country that you wish to have it in.
If Predator or any other company wishes to have legal grounds to protect themselves in China then they have to establish a legal presence and register their designs as design patents, utility patents, trademarks, and copyrights according to whatever the proper category is.
Then they can pursue whatever legal remedies are available to them.
Every company in the world that is successful is a target of copiers. This happens every day in the USA as well as China.
If intellectual property theft were treated as grand theft and as a felony with mandatory prison sentences then a lot of it would stop. But it's not.
I spent $40,000 in legal fees just to protect my trademark from infringement. And when it was all said and done all I got was a cease and desist settlement, no damages, and the other side immediately started selling their cases under a similar name that was technically in violation of the agreement but my attorney wanted another $20,000 to file a protest.
Companies like J&J America and others have stolen around 10 million from me and my partners over the last 15 years with knockoffs of all of my Instroke case designs.
These same companies have stolen designs from Justis, Guiseppe, SouthWest, Meucci, McDermott, Viking, Porper, APT Ultimate Tip Tool, Whitten, and just about every cue and case maker of note.
On a personal level I find it disheartening that no one protests all the blatant design theft that happens every day by established companies who steal from innovators and give very little or nothing back to the billiard industry - instead those companies get praised.
And then when someone like this Carl's Cue comes in and is quite open about what he is doing he gets vilified. Yes Carls Cues is slimy in their marketing, yes they are ripoff artists. But the guy is selling $30 cues and is clearly telling everyone where the designs come from. No one is going to confuse a $30 knockoff with a real Meucci in this case.
However I used to receive plenty of knockoff cases from people who thought that they bought an Instroke case because the sellers either flat out lied, used my descriptions almost verbatim, or were themselves duped by the importers.
I find it sad that anyone would be a dealer of companies that flat out steal the designs from other companies and then denounce a guy like Carl's Cues. I find Carl's Cues actions to be deplorable but no more so than the actions of most companies in the billiard industry who do the same thing in far worse ways.
Companies like J&J have done far more harm to innovators in billiards than someone like Carl's Cues. And they continue to do harm and continue to get praised as if they are not doing anything wrong.
I wasn't going to say anything and I hope to God that those of you who hate me aren't going to turn this into another "bash John" festival. But as someone who lives with this daily in China I can offer another perspective.
To be honest, John has been sending me private Pm's all day about this thread. John feels violated by another importer stealing his designs, and I have told him in a number of posts today that I feel his pain and that I understand why he would be angry. However, John Barton has been involved in importing his cases into the USA since he started Instroke, Instroke cases were made in Czech Republic and his current company JB Cases is located in China.
For those who do not know my back ground, I own a retail store which is part of my Pool Room, which is small 9 tables, and I also am a small time retailer, I buy around $30,000 worth of merchandise yearly, so like I said I am small time compared to Mr. Barton. I sell mostly American Brand name items or the imports of these companies. I also sell products that I purchase from J&J America because as a retailer I can offer my customers a deal on lower end items, such as, Jump Cues, Jump Break cues, Cases, and some of their cues. I have never seen all the items that John claims that J&J is selling, they are certainly not in their latest catalog. Where cases are concerned I would recommend that everyone please check out this thread where John and Jack Justice openly displayed their difference of opinion concerning stolen designs and who stole whose design.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=1986846#post1986846
In the Thread above Jack said that John stole his design for the Jay Flowers Tribute Case starting at post 64, and John denied that it happened. Then John starts talking about how he was mad because J&J America was Jacks customer, it is certainly an interesting read.
I also am a dealer for McDermott, Meucci, Adam Custom Cues, Mali Custom Cues, Joss Custom cues, Tiger Products / cues, Cue Stik Action Brand, Cue and Case sales, Imperial Billiards Inc. and I also carry Custom Cues.
None of the items I carry are knock off items to my knowledge, because it go's against my principles to sell item's that are knock offs of American Made items. I do not sell any products here or on eBay, I only sell directly face to face with people who walk into my store, I prefer to do business this way. John's post was directed at me for doing business with J&J America, I have nothing to hide, and nothing to gain by starting this thread unlike some others may. I also do not feel sorry for John, and I told him by PM that he should not post to this thread because it would not serve his cause, but who listens to me anyway!!
But back to the topic at hand, like I told John if he was employing Americans to build his cases which to my knowledge he never has, I would also call bull shit if some one stole his design. But when China and Taiwan are knocking off each others products it is not really my concern since they both are guilty of doing so. For those Americans caught up in the drama caused by living and doing business in Asia I suppose it comes with the Territory!!!!
Oh and by the way John, if you did not want this to turn into a Bash John thread why did you personally try and Bash me, John you must love punishment, it appears be similar to battered Wives syndrome, John why don't you go bash Mr. Justis bceause J & J America is his customer too according to you:wink:!!!!!
Below is where John makes this claim in the thread in the above link.
Dear Jack,
Just to be clear about the nature of the internet, if someone sends you anything and claims someone "said" it then you really have no idea if it's true or not as emails and pms are easily faked.
I can understand that you were upset when you read that I said I would also import the same case that your customer J&J has been importing for many many years prior. It was a situation where your now partner Long Chan had offered it for general sale to all customers and that is how it came to be in my hands. Although I never seriously intended to buy this case from Long Chan, especially when I make cases, I did in fact tell someone in a PM who asked where to buy that copy of your cases, in anger that I would be importing them, primarily because I did not want to send that prospective customer to J&J.
However you did not know if this was true and you could have simply sent me an email as you requested of Ftgokie in a similar situation and we could have discussed it.
Then, if unsatisified with my answer you could have still made your accusation along with my unsatsifactory answer.
As for Roy mistyping the J.Flowers brand name as Jay Flowers it was an honest mistake on his part and will be corrected shortly. However you need to understand just for the purpose of keeping the discussion accurate that there never was a "Jay Flowers" brand of case. The brand that Jay used was J.E.F. Q Cases.
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John Barton
New member
Well, I see that this is not going to be one of those threads that I can participate in without you attacking my character. I didn't attack you personally Craig. I said that it's sad when ANYONE who is a dealer would denounce a Carl's Cues without also denouncing their own suppliers who do the same thing. If the shoe fits then I would certainly hope you would consider the point and be reflective about it rather than defensive.
The dispute between Mr. Justis and I has nothing to do with this discussion. Mr. Justis feels one way and I feel another and I have made my peace with it. I find it distasteful that you attempt to fan the flames and further deflect from THIS discussion.
As for your comment about wives who continue to be abused I hope that you have enough decency to see how much in poor taste that comment is. You should know by now that the only one who gets abused when you and I argue is you. I gave you the opportunity to reflect on the other side of the coin in private. In my eyes when you facilitate theft, you become the thief. You portray yourself as an expert in the industry, so I find it hard to believe that you don't know who originated every product and who is stealing those designs.
The fact is Craig, whether you are ignorant of it or not, which I find hard to believe since you always make statements that are intended to make us believe that you have extensive information about the billiard industry, J&J copies other people's products. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt and ask one simple question.
If you are now made aware that J&J carries any product that is a direct ripoff of an AMERICAN company's products would you denounce J&J in the same way that you denounce Carl's Cues?
Joe Porper is an American. His cases have been knocked off by everyone including J&J. There you have one clear example of a company whose products you carry, whom you have openly praised on this board, and who sells a direct knockoff of an American company's product.
How do you feel about that?
Edit: For your reference Craig, this is the J&J page where they list cases knocked off from Porper. http://www.jjcue.com/cases4.htm
The picture from that page:
So, will you denounce J&J and stop selling their merchandise because they practice design theft against American made products?
The dispute between Mr. Justis and I has nothing to do with this discussion. Mr. Justis feels one way and I feel another and I have made my peace with it. I find it distasteful that you attempt to fan the flames and further deflect from THIS discussion.
As for your comment about wives who continue to be abused I hope that you have enough decency to see how much in poor taste that comment is. You should know by now that the only one who gets abused when you and I argue is you. I gave you the opportunity to reflect on the other side of the coin in private. In my eyes when you facilitate theft, you become the thief. You portray yourself as an expert in the industry, so I find it hard to believe that you don't know who originated every product and who is stealing those designs.
The fact is Craig, whether you are ignorant of it or not, which I find hard to believe since you always make statements that are intended to make us believe that you have extensive information about the billiard industry, J&J copies other people's products. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt and ask one simple question.
If you are now made aware that J&J carries any product that is a direct ripoff of an AMERICAN company's products would you denounce J&J in the same way that you denounce Carl's Cues?
Joe Porper is an American. His cases have been knocked off by everyone including J&J. There you have one clear example of a company whose products you carry, whom you have openly praised on this board, and who sells a direct knockoff of an American company's product.
How do you feel about that?
Edit: For your reference Craig, this is the J&J page where they list cases knocked off from Porper. http://www.jjcue.com/cases4.htm
The picture from that page:
So, will you denounce J&J and stop selling their merchandise because they practice design theft against American made products?
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John Barton
New member
I agree with everything you said, and I applaud you for your information. But, I disagree with you on this point, this is exactly why you should buy American, because some one would not get away with producing these same items in the US. So yes in my opinion this is a Buy American Thread, because the people being hurt are Americans.
We will have to agree to disagree on this point!!!!
So if someone knocks off a product and the sales of it hurt Americans then you are against that?
Just trying to nail down your moral criteria here.
Why would you think that Carl's Cues could not "get away" with producing the same cues in the USA?
Are you an attorney now?
I mean seriously, what would stop Carl's Cues from setting up a little cue making shop and sticking decals on the cues and advertising them the exact same way?
I mean I find the way that Carl's Cues is going about this to be despicable, but moreso I find your stance on it to be hypocritical, since you openly support and sell products supplied to you by companies who knock off far more than Carl's Cues is doing.
John Barton
New member
Yet you have an I-Trader rating on this board and obviously sell your wares to people you haven't met. You have also stated openly on the board that you can "offer better prices" on certain mass produced items.
You do not need to have a financial incentive to put yourself on a moral pedestal. I certainly believe that you get your jollies out of stirring the pot more than anything else.
And to be clear, I am against design theft, I am also against hypocrisy, which is what you are practicing here, in my opinion of course.
John Barton
New member
No, the cheapo humidors are a testament to why proper education has it's place. If you raise a nation of sheep then it's no wonder why the devious and clever prey on them.
The fact that you recognized the bad quality and also chose to evangelize against it is exactly what is needed in the world to help others understand the differences in quality that exist and furthermore to understand that an investment in quality provides long term value.
There is never a problem with choosing quality wherever it's made. It's weeding through the junk that is sometimes the problem.
I believe all of us have bought things that don't live up to our expectations. This practice of selling junk has been with us for thousands of years and is nothing new. It's each person's individual responsibility to educate themselves first about quality and if they are inclined to educate others afterward.
This quote fits aptly here,
"There is nothing in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and he who considers price only is that man's lawful prey."
John Ruskin
English critic, essayist, & reformer (1819 - 1900)
Oh fncking great, this guy again, ugh! Mention china and his ears perk up, his tail starts waggin, and his pecker gets hard! Craig, I agree with ya bud, but now there will be thirty pages of China is great, America is bad, Look at how smart I am, I can write twenty paragraphs without breathing, I will bore you all to death, and I will rule the world some day commie loving bullshit. Well, Im done with this thread. Have a good one guys.
Joe
Joe
John Barton
New member
What do you agree with? Craig sells products made in China by companies that steal other people's designs?
You agree with Craig doing this?
John Barton
New member
Easy to report this
On every Ebay auction is a button to report violations.
Anyone can do it and I bet if Ebay gets enough complaints they will stop an auction.
If you are really outraged over this then do something about it. Ebay gives you a platform to have your voice heard.
In the past I have had auctions like this taken down which violated my intellectual property when I owned Instroke.
On every Ebay auction is a button to report violations.
Anyone can do it and I bet if Ebay gets enough complaints they will stop an auction.
If you are really outraged over this then do something about it. Ebay gives you a platform to have your voice heard.
In the past I have had auctions like this taken down which violated my intellectual property when I owned Instroke.
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