Your Take On Sandbagging!

randyg said:
Sandbagging is about a Man's Character. (The inherent complex of attributes that determine a persons moral and ethical actions and reactions.)

If a Man cheats in Pool, then also in Bowling, Golf & Life....SPF=randyg
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I agree totally but knowing that you/your team worked to get there is small solace when you/your team just got taken out by a player/team that cheated to get there.

That's why many people just choose to avoid the whole "handicap" scenario.

I do play 1 night in APA - get together with some pool buddies, have a good burger, keep score myself so I know safeties are being marked & go for the best match-ups. End of the night turn in the envelope then go home & forget about it - it is what it is & not worth losing sleep over. :)
 
Handicaps help bring in the casual player who keeps the pool hall/leagues in business. Without them these leagues wouldn't exist.

It's unfortunate that people take advantage or sandbag, but you just have to try to work it out in the correct fashion.
 
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What's a handicap in foosball? Do they only allow you to use certain fingers? Or do you have to play with a flat ball? Maybe you have to blindfold some of your men. Odd, I never thought of a foosball handicap. :grin:
 
I live east of Clevaland and play in a Tap league on the west side of
Cleveland only so I can play at the SBE. It sucks driving 45 minutes
especially now with winter coming. Anyways, I'm a 5 in TAP, and thats
a legit 5. I call all safes, and try my best everytime. I've played a few
4 handicaps lately that have beat my arse. I mean, easily straight up.
For me to give them a game on the wire is just rediculous. Holy crap!
We have a few more weeks left in this session, so I guess its crunch
time, and they want to make the run. In a Tap league, you dont win
money for winning the session. You get a an invite to the national
tourney, and thats where the money is at. I dont know if this a new
idea, or old, but we have a league here that pays out a ton for winning
the session, and the money at the tourney is pretty much an after
thought. I believe this would eliminate a bunch of the sand bagging
going on, because everybody is pretty much full throttle to get the big
bucks winning the regular session. Whattya guys think? Brilliant idea?
I'd like to get some opinions on this type of league payout format.
 
I'm one of those new players who probably wouldn't play in a league were it not for handicaps. (Yes, it's an APA League; all that's available where I live, and I'm enjoying it quite a bit.) Realize, I do not expect to win anything, for the most part, but I'd at least like to know I might have a chance if I do enough things right and my opponent doesn't run right over me. Perhaps in time I'll be better suited to play at a higher level, where it won't matter as much. I am still quite new to this.

When I'm at the club on a night when we aren't playing League, just shooting for the fun of it, I play against the best players in the club quite often. With no handicap, and tho I'm quite sure they aren't trying to run them on me all the time, they play me pretty solid. I lose almost all the time, and I have a ball. I'm learning, they're teaching, and we're all having fun. So yes, I understand the need and desire to play people better than me.

But League is more fun for me because of the handicap. I'm a 3 and beat a 6 last night. He had a horrible night, and I made a few shots consistently for a change. (To be fair, he probably shouldn't be a 6, but that's another thread. Suffice to say he is a better shooter than me, clearly.) Had we played straight up, I would have lost, most likely.

I understand the hand-wringing about sandbagging. Our team is in a bit of a spot right now because most of our new players this year moved up to 4's and 5's rather quickly, and we also have two 6's and a 7! A bit of a mathematical challenge, some nights. But we haven't actively sandbagged, to the best of my knowledge. The safeties don't get kept track of properly, I'm sure, but not ignored completely, all around the League. We're having a hard enough time stringing together wins lately to worry about that foolishness! From what I've seen and watched and talked about, it doesn't appear to be too big of a problem with our League. I guess we're lucky.

So while I'm new here and at competitive pool, I wonder how you folks get a chance to play regularly if you don't play leagues. I realize that I'm out in the woods, so we don't have as many opportunities as in the more populated parts of the world. Just remember us newbies that are, for the most part, having fun and trying to learn from you folks that are so much better than us. You all were "down here" where we are now at some point.

(Sorry for the run-on. I need to self-edit better!) :rolleyes:
 
shamadam said:
I live east of Clevaland and play in a Tap league on the west side of
Cleveland only so I can play at the SBE. It sucks driving 45 minutes
especially now with winter coming. Anyways, I'm a 5 in TAP, and thats
a legit 5. I call all safes, and try my best everytime. I've played a few
4 handicaps lately that have beat my arse. I mean, easily straight up.
For me to give them a game on the wire is just rediculous. Holy crap!
We have a few more weeks left in this session, so I guess its crunch
time, and they want to make the run. In a Tap league, you dont win
money for winning the session. You get a an invite to the national
tourney, and thats where the money is at. I dont know if this a new
idea, or old, but we have a league here that pays out a ton for winning
the session, and the money at the tourney is pretty much an after
thought. I believe this would eliminate a bunch of the sand bagging
going on, because everybody is pretty much full throttle to get the big
bucks winning the regular session. Whattya guys think? Brilliant idea?
I'd like to get some opinions on this type of league payout format.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I don't understand your reasoning.....for which I apologize in advance. I play in a league that has a 90% payout of all monies collected, yet sandbagging is still commonplace. The purse isn't all that big, maybe 3-5 hundred for the winning team.....so perhaps our "big bucks" aint big enough. Still though.....the biggest payout goes to the highest place finisher.....if your primary motivator is the payout, logic says to me that sandbagging is gonna be present.....it would follow then.....that the larger the payout, the greater the temptation to sandbag.
 
Ken_4fun said:
I sandbag at every opportunity.

Even doing that, it is sometimes hard to win. I am constantly running into better sandbaggers and that REALLY pi$$es me off. :mad:

The only thing better is beating a APA 7 who is so proud of reaching the 7 level. They really dont get the big picture.....:rolleyes:

Ken
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To some of us, it's more fun just enjoying the game by trying to outrun the nuts then to win a measly amount of money that one has a .001% chance of winning anyway.
 
danquixote said:
Perhaps I don't understand your reasoning.....for which I apologize in advance. I play in a league that has a 90% payout of all monies collected, yet sandbagging is still commonplace. The purse isn't all that big, maybe 3-5 hundred for the winning team.....so perhaps our "big bucks" aint big enough. Still though.....the biggest payout goes to the highest place finisher.....if your primary motivator is the payout, logic says to me that sandbagging is gonna be present.....it would follow then.....that the larger the payout, the greater the temptation to sandbag.
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Sorry about that. Lemme try again. There is a pool league around here that
has I believe a 15 week session. The team with the best record at the end
of the session wins I believe around $ 10,000. There are handicaps and
you cant go over a certain team handicap limit, but I believe that that the
session is too short to sandbag enough to get your handicap dropped in
order to have a better chance at winning more matches. I believe guys are
shooting their best game to win the match at that week without missing
balls purposely for fear of losing that weeks match. The league tourney
pays out I believe less than half of the session payout. I hope that clears
it up a bit. Maybe?.........:confused:
 
Sandbagging its a necessary evil.(in apa anyway). If they would raise the skill cap to 25-26, there will be much much less sandbagging. But this was already been discussed to death, and its not gonna happen.
 
B4IFURU18 said:
Sandbagging its a necessary evil.
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Only for some people who have a "win at any cost" mentality. There are some people who still play because they love the game, and enjoy the friendly competition.

I stand by my last post. Sandbagging is cheating. If I thought the only way I could win was to cheat, I wouldn't even play.

Steve
 
shamadam said:
Sorry about that. Lemme try again. There is a pool league around here that
has I believe a 15 week session. The team with the best record at the end
of the session wins I believe around $ 10,000. There are handicaps and
you cant go over a certain team handicap limit, but I believe that that the
session is too short to sandbag enough to get your handicap dropped in
order to have a better chance at winning more matches. I believe guys are
shooting their best game to win the match at that week without missing
balls purposely for fear of losing that weeks match. The league tourney
pays out I believe less than half of the session payout. I hope that clears
it up a bit. Maybe?.........:confused:
Click to expand...
Yes...that cleared things up a bit. The shorter time frame makes it unlikely that anyone would sandbag because each win is important.....and the amount of money at stake keeps all eyes focused.....so the chances of getting away with it are minimal......Your lucky to be able to participate like that......unfortunately....the majority of us do not have that luxury.....wish that it were otherwise....Dan
 
justadub said:
I'm one of those new players who probably wouldn't play in a league were it not for handicaps. (Yes, it's an APA League; all that's available where I live, and I'm enjoying it quite a bit.) Realize, I do not expect to win anything, for the most part, but I'd at least like to know I might have a chance if I do enough things right and my opponent doesn't run right over me. Perhaps in time I'll be better suited to play at a higher level, where it won't matter as much. I am still quite new to this.

When I'm at the club on a night when we aren't playing League, just shooting for the fun of it, I play against the best players in the club quite often. With no handicap, and tho I'm quite sure they aren't trying to run them on me all the time, they play me pretty solid. I lose almost all the time, and I have a ball. I'm learning, they're teaching, and we're all having fun. So yes, I understand the need and desire to play people better than me.

But League is more fun for me because of the handicap. I'm a 3 and beat a 6 last night. He had a horrible night, and I made a few shots consistently for a change. (To be fair, he probably shouldn't be a 6, but that's another thread. Suffice to say he is a better shooter than me, clearly.) Had we played straight up, I would have lost, most likely.

I understand the hand-wringing about sandbagging. Our team is in a bit of a spot right now because most of our new players this year moved up to 4's and 5's rather quickly, and we also have two 6's and a 7! A bit of a mathematical challenge, some nights. But we haven't actively sandbagged, to the best of my knowledge. The safeties don't get kept track of properly, I'm sure, but not ignored completely, all around the League. We're having a hard enough time stringing together wins lately to worry about that foolishness! From what I've seen and watched and talked about, it doesn't appear to be too big of a problem with our League. I guess we're lucky.

So while I'm new here and at competitive pool, I wonder how you folks get a chance to play regularly if you don't play leagues. I realize that I'm out in the woods, so we don't have as many opportunities as in the more populated parts of the world. Just remember us newbies that are, for the most part, having fun and trying to learn from you folks that are so much better than us. You all were "down here" where we are now at some point.

(Sorry for the run-on. I need to self-edit better!) :rolleyes:
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I'm always glad to see new players. Welcome to our sport. I've been playing for about 35 years and love this game as much today as I did when I was a teenager.

I use to play APA and have played APA in 3 different state but I'm done with it. I understand you want a handicap system to be able to compete against better players. However, if the handicap of the person who you are playing is not accurate, you don't stand a chance. Sorry to say that but its true. You say you're a 3, I know many 3s and 4s that can string racks together.

Enjoy APA for what it is. Continue to practice, compete, and strive to get better. At some point in your pool career you will have to step outside APA to continue your improvement.

Again, welcome to the sport.

Steven
 
I hope my life never gets so boring that taking a few hours out of a night to go to a pool hall and deliberately miss balls seems like fun.
 
B4IFURU18 said:
Sandbagging its a necessary evil.(in apa anyway). If they would raise the skill cap to 25-26, there will be much much less sandbagging. But this was already been discussed to death, and its not gonna happen.
Click to expand...

you nailed it on the head. this is why i think tap is superior to apa. with the 25 rule, and the fact that most people shoot a full skill level lower in tap than apa, there are a lot less sandbaggers, and a lot less times teams are required to break up due to skill levels.
 
randyg said:
Sandbagging is about a Man's Character. (The inherent complex of attributes that determine a persons moral and ethical actions and reactions.)

If a Man cheats in Pool, then also in Bowling, Golf & Life....SPF=randyg
Click to expand...

Amen. Doesn't get any more simple than that. Unfortunately, competitive sports brings out a lot of immoralities in people, pool being on the high end of unethical behavior in sports.
 
Drew said:
Get rid of the handicaps and sandbagging goes with it. Don't blame the players for using every tool to win. Sandbagging, in itself, has become quite the art. You can't develop a winning APA team without sandbagging, because everybody else is doing it. You HAVE TO work the numbers to remain competitive.

PS: I don't diliberately play up innings or miss shots. But some nights I concentrate just a little harder.
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i have to strongly disagree with this statement.the APA 8 ball team that i captain has won outright TWO straight seasons with no sandbagging at all, now i have had problems with the 23 rule, i have had to be creative in my player selection. i have had to drop someone from the team and bring in a newer player to stay under 23, but i have NEVER asked anyone on my team to run up innings or otherwise cheat the system. now when we get to city playoffs next May i could be singing a different tune if we get beat by one of these sandbagging teams, but that could also mean that i didnt do my job as captain and call out these cheaters to the LO.

we play to have fun, if by some miracle we win and get the trip to Vegas then that is icing on the cake but we can honestly say that we played fair and by the rules. i would not have it any other way and if the team did want to play that way i would resign from the team. from top to bottom i would put myteam up against any team i have seen and we can stay with them whether they sandbag or not. as always this is just my humble opinion.

Mike
 
mm4pool said:
i have to strongly disagree with this statement.the APA 8 ball team that i captain has won outright TWO straight seasons with no sandbagging at all, now i have had problems with the 23 rule, i have had to be creative in my player selection. i have had to drop someone from the team and bring in a newer player to stay under 23, but i have NEVER asked anyone on my team to run up innings or otherwise cheat the system. now when we get to city playoffs next May i could be singing a different tune if we get beat by one of these sandbagging teams, but that could also mean that i didnt do my job as captain and call out these cheaters to the LO.

we play to have fun, if by some miracle we win and get the trip to Vegas then that is icing on the cake but we can honestly say that we played fair and by the rules. i would not have it any other way and if the team did want to play that way i would resign from the team. from top to bottom i would put myteam up against any team i have seen and we can stay with them whether they sandbag or not. as always this is just my humble opinion.

Mike
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I agree with you, winning the different sessions is relatively easy without sandbagging. The problem arises when you get to the regionals. It is much tougher to win.

My teams go to the regionals every year; however, we have not been able to make it to Vegas.

I have never sandbagged or asked my team to, because I am playing for fun and I do have a lot of fun playing (even in the APA). I am an SL7 in 8 ball adn SL8 in 9 ball.

Like I tell everyone, if I want to go Vegas, I will buy a ticket and go there; I don't need the APA for that. Last year I proved it and my wife and I flew down for 4 - 5 days during the Nationals, although we did not "win" the trip.

If you (in general, not mm4pool) are really worried about winning a trip to Vegas, you should think about getting a better job versus worrying about sandbagging.
 
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